Webbo Posted 6 November 2017 Posted 6 November 2017 1 minute ago, Izzy Muzzett said: Fair play mate - respect your beliefs I'll buy you a pint when I meet you in the afterlife What makes you think you've going to the same place?
Matt_Lcfc Posted 6 November 2017 Author Posted 6 November 2017 1 minute ago, stripeyfox said: Or maybe there isn't. There are billions of different animals on this planet. Do they all go to heaven as well, or just us? "Heaven" is a human creation, an elaborate work of fiction. It's a really relevant point to be fair. Like someone said is there more to life after an ant is stamped on or when a chicken is killed?
stripeyfox Posted 6 November 2017 Posted 6 November 2017 1 minute ago, Izzy Muzzett said: Fair play mate - respect your beliefs I'll buy you a pint when I meet you in the afterlife Thanks mate! You can say "I told you so!"
Izzy Posted 6 November 2017 Posted 6 November 2017 3 minutes ago, Matt_Lcfc said: For the record I'm 16, still a school kid so people look at my views and thinks it's another naive young lad who's views have no significance. This is the same politically, have a massive view on politics. I want to make a change in this world, for the better! You'll get on famously with @toddybad on the politics thread fella
Matt_Lcfc Posted 6 November 2017 Author Posted 6 November 2017 I hope this thread is carried on, people are very open on this topic
DennisNedry Posted 6 November 2017 Posted 6 November 2017 15 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said: Our bodies are yes. But I believe our spirit/soul moves on. In a way I admire people's simplistic approach though. It's a lot easier to manage What would you define this as? For me, no such thing exists. I believe that on a very simple level, heaven and hell are historical man made constructs to - Control people (do this or else you'll go to Hell, do this and it's heaven) - Comfort people (you'll see all your deceased family in the afterlife) - Provide a sense of justice (bad people are punished, good are rewarded etc). I tend not to believe anything on faith (I'm a committed atheist).
bovril Posted 6 November 2017 Posted 6 November 2017 3 minutes ago, DennisNedry said: What would you define this as? For me, no such thing exists. I believe that on a very simple level, heaven and hell are historical man made constructs to - Control people (do this or else you'll go to Hell, do this and it's heaven) - Comfort people (you'll see all your deceased family in the afterlife) - Provide a sense of justice (bad people are punished, good are rewarded etc). I tend not to believe anything on faith (I'm a committed atheist). I think it's quite natural for people to try to come to terms with death. We are blessed with higher intelligence than most mammals but the trade off is we know we're going to die. So I'm not sure belief in life after death was ever 'man made' so to speak, just a natural consequence of knowing our fate. Maybe that's why we drink.
stripeyfox Posted 6 November 2017 Posted 6 November 2017 I was born in 1973 and was brought up as a Christian by my parents and was spoon fed the standard bible stories at school. It sounded great, and why wouldn't I believe it. Was nice to think of my Grandma up in heaven and comforting. Fast forward to about 1985 when I was 12 and beginning to question stuff. The second half of the 1980's was an incomprehensible time by today's standards in terms of regular disasters. Just off the top of my head - Bradford fire, Heysel, multiple plane crashes in Japan, Manchester and off the coast of Ireland, the Herald of Free Enterprise Sinking, Hillsborough, Kings Cross Fire, Kegworth. This was regular - almost monthly on the news. Consider that the recent Grenfell Fire which is estimated to have killed 80 people is the worst UK disaster since Hillsborough shows how times have changed. But these disasters - each one, chipped away at my faith. But the moment when it suddenly became clear to me was one chilly Spring morning in 1996 when I heard the news that Thomas Hamilton had murdered 16 wee five year old children in the Dunblane massacre. From that moment, I was completely decided that you could shove all your God, Jesus and religious crap. I was out.
cambridgefox Posted 6 November 2017 Posted 6 November 2017 Would like to think there is mind you in some form.
srbfox Posted 6 November 2017 Posted 6 November 2017 No for me, we live, we died. Bada-Bing it's done. The human race has a problem with the idea of "nothing" and are obsessed with everything having a meaning. The mind struggles to there being "nothing". The universe is/is not expanding into nothing?! We die and go on to live another life, in heaven or in hell or as a 14th century knight fighting the crusades (no idea if the crusades were in ten 14th century) each to their own and I hope the thought of an afterlife offers comfort to those who need it, but come on, think about it....really?
Izzy Posted 6 November 2017 Posted 6 November 2017 25 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said: Our bodies are yes. But I believe our spirit/soul moves on. In a way I admire people's simplistic approach though. It's a lot easier to manage 4 minutes ago, DennisNedry said: What would you define this as? I'm not sure I can define it as any more than a belief. A trust and faith that we experience something else after death. No idea what it looks or feels like, but just a feeling I've always had from an early age. For me, no such thing exists. I believe that on a very simple level, heaven and hell are historical man made constructs to - Control people (do this or else you'll go to Hell, do this and it's heaven) I certainly don't feel 'controlled' by the thought, but the basic principle does guide me to try and do good/the right thing for others. Works for me... - Comfort people (you'll see all your deceased family in the afterlife) I like the idea of seeing my deceased family in the afterlife and am comforted by that thought. Again, works for me... - Provide a sense of justice (bad people are punished, good are rewarded etc). Whether people are religious or not, I'd suggest most people agree with justice. The thought of being punished in this life or the next means I try not to do bad things or harm others. I think that's an O.K. way to navigate through life personally... I tend not to believe anything on faith (I'm a committed atheist). Fair play. I know many, many atheists and people of different faiths and I'm good friends with them all. I'll never judge anyone on their religious or non religious beliefs. I believe it's a very personal thing and everyone's beliefs should be respected (and I'm guilty of not always sticking to that because I'm a fundamentally flawed human being )
Matt_Lcfc Posted 6 November 2017 Author Posted 6 November 2017 2 minutes ago, srbfox said: No for me, we live, we died. Bada-Bing it's done. The human race has a problem with the idea of "nothing" and are obsessed with everything having a meaning. The mind struggles to there being "nothing". The universe is/is not expanding into nothing?! We die and go on to live another life, in heaven or in hell or as a 14th century knight fighting the crusades (no idea if the crusades were in ten 14th century) each to their own and I hope the thought of an afterlife offers comfort to those who need it, but come on, think about it....really? Also known as reincarnation. A Hindu belief I think and how well you perform as a person determines what you will be in your next life.
srbfox Posted 6 November 2017 Posted 6 November 2017 On a side note, I completely do not believe in a god or any "higher power" but how many of us wish, prayed and begged some higher power that spurs wouldn't catch us. That we'd get something at OT? I did....interesting
Matt_Lcfc Posted 6 November 2017 Author Posted 6 November 2017 What if the light at the end of the tunnel is us opening our eyes in our new life? Maybe the reason we cry so much is at first we miss the people in our older life? But as we grow up maybe we forget and learn The mind boggles
stripeyfox Posted 6 November 2017 Posted 6 November 2017 Just now, srbfox said: On a side note, I completely do not believe in a god or any "higher power" but how many of us wish, prayed and begged some higher power that spurs wouldn't catch us. That we'd get something at OT? I did....interesting I prayed to Claudio...
srbfox Posted 6 November 2017 Posted 6 November 2017 Just now, stripeyfox said: I prayed to Claudio... So sport stars have replaced religion.
stripeyfox Posted 6 November 2017 Posted 6 November 2017 Just now, srbfox said: So sport stars have replaced religion. At least Claudio existed...
Izzy Posted 6 November 2017 Posted 6 November 2017 Believing there is something else after we die and being religious are not necessarily mutually exclusive IMO
Sampson Posted 6 November 2017 Posted 6 November 2017 29 minutes ago, Drew Peacock said: If it was chance expansion though, something had to expand. Where did that something come from in the first place. Had it been there eternally? How did it get there in the first place from nothing. It’s an impossible question to answer I know, and possibly one our limited knowledge can’t process. But why does any of that lead you to the idea of an afterlife? At best that means you could make an argument for a passive creator, but everything we know about DNA and cultural and social influence, our senses and their failings and how quantum mechanics shows the molecules (which make up the neurons of our brain) appear to all just be random decision making (and quantum mechanics is the most thoroughly tested and proven explanation of the universe humans come up with) means it's unlikely we can really have any say on how are brains work and the decisions we make other than just our DNA, culture, learned language, education, past experiences and the very specific interpretation of the universe which our senses give us (which we already know, miss out on giving us the chance to experience the overwhelming majority of what we could actually see, hear, smell, touch or taste) - none of which we control. If there's an afterlife there's an afterlife, but it seems very unlikely to me there's a God or Gods who've created this universe and then placed it in it solely to worship them and as a kind of theatre in which the sole purpose is to play the role a certain way (even though libertarian free-will seems illogical) so they can carry on in the next life. I don't think believing in any God or Gods really has any chance of improving your chance of psssing into the afterlife. It's just as likely that atheists are given an afterlife and religious people aren't or that one of the many failed religions or a religion completely unestablished is the right answer. Therefore, I've never really understood the need to restrict your life and place rules on your potentially only life here based on some modern cultural version of organised religion. The afterlife could be a possibility sure, but I don't really understand why people place their emphasis on finding that through a modern interpretation of old time organised religion. Just feels a bit hollow to me. You can comfort yourself in the thought of an afterlife without thinking the billion odd Hindus in India are going to hell because even though they could be the kindest, most charitable people in the world, they happened to be born into the wrong culture or that you have to waste every Sunday of your life going to church. Doesn't seem worthwhile thinking that your belief system or decisions is what decides whether you enter an afterlife or not (and Ive nrver understood why anyone would want to worship a narcissistic God who punishes people for not bowing down to him and kissing his feet constantly anyway and constantly punishes people to "test them" - that doesn't sound like the kind of morale being I would ever like to worship, in fact I'd think he was a massive willy puller if I saw him on earth) when it seems so unlikely we can actually control what we think or the decisions we make anyway. Just my interpretation of course, but I've just always never felt that it's possible that anything we did or thought could change whether we enter an afterlife or not and even if it were - it's impossible to know what those thoughts or actions were - so it's not really worth thinking about. And restricting your life with these ideas. Believing in an afterlife is one thing, but believing that your mindset or certain actions you do (and we can ever know what they are) are what get you into that afterlife has always seemed strange to me.
stripeyfox Posted 6 November 2017 Posted 6 November 2017 Just now, Izzy Muzzett said: Believing there is something else after we die and being religious are not necessarily mutually exclusive IMO Yeah, I guess you could be right. For me they have always been hand in glove with one another though. Probably just the way I was brought up and educated!
srbfox Posted 6 November 2017 Posted 6 November 2017 1 minute ago, stripeyfox said: Yeah, I guess you could be right. For me they have always been hand in glove with one another though. Probably just the way I was brought up and educated! You can't pick and choice the tasty bits of religion. It's all or nothing.
Benguin Posted 6 November 2017 Posted 6 November 2017 Little reason to think there is one, even less reason to think there isn't one.
Captain... Posted 6 November 2017 Posted 6 November 2017 58 minutes ago, Webbo said: I agree with that although I'd never dismiss peoples beliefs, there's no way of knowing for sure. If believing in an afterlife give some people comfort I'm not knocking it. I don't think Fox92 really expressed a belief, just a feeling that there has got to be more than this. I was genuinely asking him why, but I see it went off on a bit of a rant. People are free to believe what they want, and if you are a Christian you probably aren't going to be swayed by an argument based around evolution.
Phube Posted 6 November 2017 Posted 6 November 2017 I'm in the when you're dead, you cease to exist belief. Apart from in any genes/memes (the Dawkins version) you've passed on in your life time. All we are are a collection of cells taken from nature, striving to stave off death for as long as possible, fighting against ambient temperature until we give up and return back to what we were... dead, lifeless atoms... But whilst we are around its handy for us to have a conscious, makes us more likely to be successful at procreating. The best way to put it, is to copy a Robbie Willians lyric: I'm not scared of dying, I just don't want to!
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