2018/19 U23s, Development, U19s etc

[Guest SO1]

The mystery of 'ramadaone' continues. Who are they? Where do they come from?(ps.. don't really care just keep it coming. don't want you to blow your cover)

Are they possessing of secret knowledge or a magic clarity that seems to follow them from topic to topic(see Congerton)? Mysteries and answers await? 

[AjcW]

3 hours ago, Foxxed said:

I guess we persist with them in the academy because we either don't have good replacements or we want to eventually sell them: see Josh Gordon.

 

If Beaglehole's putting the younger guys in the team earlier and we're loaning players out then I have no issue with him, especially with our recent graduates, one of them playing in the u23s for most of his time. The style of football hardly seems archaic to me but if we can get a better coach - with as good as a CV - then fair enough.

The 'recent graduates' is an interesting point. We had a cluster all at once with Barnes, Hamza and Chilly. To be honest with a return like that over about 15 years, you could equally put that down to a law of averages that we would have 'one good year' with the academy, rather than any coaching in particular.

 

The club have been talking about wanting to be self sufficient for a while now, of course you can do that by bringing in young prospects from abroad and selling them on, however you also want to be seeing one or two prospects a year moving from the dev squad to the First Team, making them valuable assets, similar to Southampton and to a lesser extent with regards to selling, Spurs.

 

I hope we haven't missed the boat a bit on developing the academy whilst we were pretty much the only Premier League club within miles and miles! 

[Foxxed]

44 minutes ago, AjcW said:

The 'recent graduates' is an interesting point. We had a cluster all at once with Barnes, Hamza and Chilly. To be honest with a return like that over about 15 years, you could equally put that down to a law of averages that we would have 'one good year' with the academy, rather than any coaching in particular.

 

The club have been talking about wanting to be self sufficient for a while now, of course you can do that by bringing in young prospects from abroad and selling them on, however you also want to be seeing one or two prospects a year moving from the dev squad to the First Team, making them valuable assets, similar to Southampton and to a lesser extent with regards to selling, Spurs.

 

I hope we haven't missed the boat a bit on developing the academy whilst we were pretty much the only Premier League club within miles and miles! 

We had King, Liam Moore then Schlupp. A few years later we improved with Chilwell, Barnes and Hamza. If Knight or another comes good then it'll be hard to argue with was a one-off. I suspect Luke Thomas will do very well in a few years.

[AjcW]

46 minutes ago, Foxxed said:

We had King, Liam Moore then Schlupp. A few years later we improved with Chilwell, Barnes and Hamza. If Knight or another comes good then it'll be hard to argue with was a one-off. I suspect Luke Thomas will do very well in a few years.

King was 2007

Moore 2010

Schlupp 2011

Chilwell 2016

Hamza 2018

Barnes 2018

 

Beaglehole and Peake have been there since the late 90's!!

 

The board will have seen that the likes or Saints and Spurs and even in the lower leagues with Norwich are able to churn out 1 or 2 prospects a season that can either be used by the first team or move on. 

 

As I mentioned above we've had 3 or 4 seasons with an increasing reputation where we have more or less had the east midlands catchment area to ourselves.... I just hope we've done enough to capitalise on that (some of the prospects in the U18's look like we may have)

 

Simple fact remains though that the style of play Beaglehole and Peake believe in just doesn't exist anymore, it's why O'Neill and Allardyce will only be employed for short periods of time for quick fixes by clubs now.

 

With a new training ground on the way it's only right we scale up in this area, i'd like to see a head of youth development in place as well alongside Congerton, it's something most Premier League Clubs have. I actually think the club hinted at this appointment when they announced Lee as they specifically stated he was in charge of Senior recruitment.

 

Ben Petty was hired as he was highly rated, I wouldn't be surprised to see him take charge of the Dev Squad.

[Nicolo Barella]

Sam Hughes injured again

 

That is one prospect never making the first team

[LCFC FOX]

30 minutes ago, Nicolo Barella said:

Sam Hughes injured again

 

That is one prospect never making the first team

Don’t think he ever would have to be honest. Was a signing for the development squad for a few seasons and that’s it. A bit like Loft, Gordan and Thomas. We’ve done it for a while now 

[davieG]

10 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

10 hours ago, Foxxed said:

How will we ramp it up? We're already playing 17 and 18 year olds.

Complete overhaul in playing style and the journey from U18's to U23's happening much earlier. Get players out on loan earlier too and in to first team football where possible. 

 

Signs of what's to come did happen in the last few months but baring in mind that's never been Beaglehole's method was that demanded of him and in which case the writing was on the wall for him? 

 

Recruitment in the academy might need looking at too, I noticed Congerton's job title is Head of Senior Recruitment. I wonder if there's an Academy Recruitment honcho coming in too. 

 

Investing money in to the academy is very important, the model we as a club look to be operating is building the best training facilities in Europe and fill it with the best young players we can get our hands on and get the best coaches out there in improving young players. Rodgers is renown for being able to do that

I'm not sure that is true, yes he seems to be renowned for getting young players into the 1st teams but I've read before that he showed and acted very little on how the youth set up was run, just living for the day.

[Foxxed]

2 hours ago, AjcW said:

King was 2007

Moore 2010

Schlupp 2011

Chilwell 2016

Hamza 2018

Barnes 2018

 

Beaglehole and Peake have been there since the late 90's!!

 

The board will have seen that the likes or Saints and Spurs and even in the lower leagues with Norwich are able to churn out 1 or 2 prospects a season that can either be used by the first team or move on. 

 

As I mentioned above we've had 3 or 4 seasons with an increasing reputation where we have more or less had the east midlands catchment area to ourselves.... I just hope we've done enough to capitalise on that (some of the prospects in the U18's look like we may have)

 

Simple fact remains though that the style of play Beaglehole and Peake believe in just doesn't exist anymore, it's why O'Neill and Allardyce will only be employed for short periods of time for quick fixes by clubs now.

 

With a new training ground on the way it's only right we scale up in this area, i'd like to see a head of youth development in place as well alongside Congerton, it's something most Premier League Clubs have. I actually think the club hinted at this appointment when they announced Lee as they specifically stated he was in charge of Senior recruitment.

 

Ben Petty was hired as he was highly rated, I wouldn't be surprised to see him take charge of the Dev Squad.

I feel the lower levels are more important than Beaglehole. We've done increasingly well recently because the u18, u16, down to the u10s, have improved massively. The improvement must have started ten years ago. Beaglehole is credited with Hamza, Chilwell and Barnes not because he coached them to success, but because he recognised their talent and either played them in the case of Hamza or immediately loaned them out in the case of Chilwell.

 

But you have to credit Beaglehole with that. He didn't coach them to success, except perhaps in the case of Hamza, but was given great players and saw them succeed. 

 

Players like Knight and Hamza came to the u23s, not looking as obviously talented as Barnes and Chilwell, but succeeded under Beaglehole. A different coach could probably get better results out of more skillful players like Ndukwu and Shade. But most posters on here are under the bizarre impression that anyone, absolutely anyone, and definitely their nan, could do better.

 

I'm not saying he's amazing. But you can't say he's rubbish unless you decide to discount Hamza and Knight. Get a better coach if we can poach one sure - but throw Beaglehole out the bus at the first opportunity? Naah.

[Foxxed]

Besides on what ground do you sack Beaglehole?

 

"Sorry Steve, we're not happy with your style of football and your results."

 

"My results? Three of my players now play for the England team."

 

"But Barnes and Chilwell spent ages on loan, not with you."

 

"Barnes played 21 matches in the PL2 and won awards. Chilwell 25 matches. Hamza 40 matches."

 

"Steve, we're worried you're not playing young players."

 

"Last match I played two 17 year olds and two 18 year olds."

 

"Steve, we don't like your style of football."

 

"Whatever style the manager wants me to play, I play."

 

"Steve, we want more players in the first team."

 

"We have one player a season. That's up there with the best Premier League clubs."

 

I don't know what contracts u23 coaches are on but I'm assuming it's full time rather than five year contracts etc. I don't think we can just "move him on".

 

 

 

 

 

(*waits for the news of his sacking tomorrow...*)

Edited 21 May 2019 by Foxxed

[AjcW]

1 hour ago, Foxxed said:

Besides on what ground do you sack Beaglehole?

 

"Sorry Steve, we're not happy with your style of football and your results."

 

"My results? Three of my players now play for the England team."

 

"But Barnes and Chilwell spent ages on loan, not with you."

 

"Yes, I saw it would benefit them and I was right. Besides Barnes won loads of PL2 awards with me and Hamza spent most of his time with me."

 

"Steve, we're worried you're not playing young players."

 

"Last match I played two 17 year olds and two 18 year olds."

 

"Steve, we don't like your style of football."

 

"Whatever style the manager wants me to play, I play."

 

"Steve, we want more players in the first team."

 

"We have one player a season. That's up there with the best Premier League clubs."

 

I don't know what contracts u23 coaches are on but I'm assuming it's full time rather than five year contracts etc. I don't think we can just "move him on".

 

 

 

 

 

(*waits for the news of his sacking tomorrow...*)

You know it’s Rudkin who would have made all the decisions with regards to loaning out young talent right? 

 

Before being DoF he was head of youth development and I’d guess still is given the wording of Congerton’s announcement. 

 

You’ll struggle to find another club that have had two youth coaches in place as long as we have! And that’s not always a good thing... for starters you have to ask where is there ambition? They’re comfortable and probably know they’ve done well to move up the divisions with us and would have to take a step down a division if they moved on so there’s no personal ambition there. 

 

Besides it wont be labelled as a sacking; probably an end of contract thanks for your service job 

[Foxxed]

23 minutes ago, AjcW said:

You know it’s Rudkin who would have made all the decisions with regards to loaning out young talent right? 

 

Before being DoF he was head of youth development and I’d guess still is given the wording of Congerton’s announcement. 

 

You’ll struggle to find another club that have had two youth coaches in place as long as we have! And that’s not always a good thing... for starters you have to ask where is there ambition? They’re comfortable and probably know they’ve done well to move up the divisions with us and would have to take a step down a division if they moved on so there’s no personal ambition there. 

 

Besides it wont be labelled as a sacking; probably an end of contract thanks for your service job 

But then some of our u10, u16, u18 coaches have been here since league one days. They produced Hamza, Chilwell and Barnes. I don't think being here a long time makes him a bad coach. And I don't think it's legal to end his contract unless he's under performed. I doubt he's on a fixed term contract.

 

You can judge Beaglehole by looking at the players who came to him. He was given Chilwell and Barnes. They were both youth England internationals. And they're still at that level. Beaglehole's kept them on the same trajectory. You could say this is not good enough. And that he should improve players. But then Hamza was nowhere near the England team when he came to Beaglehole. Now he's an England international.

 

He's a safe pair of hands for our youngsters who are already very talent (judged by being in the England team) and someone who has improved players to the point where they're in the England team. We could do better. But we could do a lot worse. And you can't see him as underperforming, especially not in any sensible metric that could be a legal reason to dismiss a full-time employee.

Edited 21 May 2019 by Foxxed

[Ric Flair]

2 hours ago, Foxxed said:

But then some of our u10, u16, u18 coaches have been here since league one days. They produced Hamza, Chilwell and Barnes. I don't think being here a long time makes him a bad coach. And I don't think it's legal to end his contract unless he's under performed. I doubt he's on a fixed term contract.

 

You can judge Beaglehole by looking at the players who came to him. He was given Chilwell and Barnes. They were both youth England internationals. And they're still at that level. Beaglehole's kept them on the same trajectory. You could say this is not good enough. And that he should improve players. But then Hamza was nowhere near the England team when he came to Beaglehole. Now he's an England international.

 

He's a safe pair of hands for our youngsters who are already very talent (judged by being in the England team) and someone who has improved players to the point where they're in the England team. We could do better. But we could do a lot worse. And you can't see him as underperforming, especially not in any sensible metric that could be a legal reason to dismiss a full-time employee.

You raise some good counter points to someone like me who for a long while has questioned why those in charge of the academy have largely remained untouched, despite the rest of the club being transformed beyond recognition. I asked this time and time again because I believed it was a jobs for the boys culture still spearheaded by Jon Rudkin who's talents herald from the academy and he still has huge influence over it. 

 

I could be wrong but I have a couple of people I know who have been involved with the academy before who back this up in a round about manner, certainly enough for people like me to question nothing much ever changing in the academy.

 

In terms of whether Beaglehole warrants the sack due to tangible metric results isn't really consistent with how football operates is it? Many positions in football, even first team managers are moved on without there being publicized analysis of why they have failed. I think the telling thing here if Beaglehole has been moved on is the shift in his methodology. Suddenly picking a cluster of younger players from the U18's after years of being reluctant to do so suggests to me he was instructed to do so, in which case powers above have stepped in and you're on dodgy ground there. But the timing of a change makes sense, we are entering an era where we are building training facilities amongst the best in Europe. The model is we have the best tools to improve our players and the best coaches we can get our hands on. Rodgers is renown as being able to improve players, getting a new U23 manager and possibly U18 manager isn't a surprise, even if it is much harder to measure their performance based on results of matches or how many academy players are sniffing around the first team. It ought to be that simple and perhaps dismissing that is a convenient way of brushing things under the carpet. 

 

I can't ignore the horrible football though in our U23's, nor the penchant for physical and aggressive players prospering. I see little value in players aged 21-23 making up the numbers for the U23's that haven't yet got anywhere near our first team nor either been on loan or done well on loan, it smacks of short term desire to have the U23 team being more competitive in matches. If that's the only way we stand a chance of staying in the PL2 league then I'd rather us not be there, let's try and build it properly.

[Jimmy]

20 hours ago, Foxxed said:

Besides on what ground do you sack Beaglehole?

 

"Sorry Steve, we're not happy with your style of football and your results."

 

"My results? Three of my players now play for the England team."

 

"But Barnes and Chilwell spent ages on loan, not with you."

 

"Barnes played 21 matches in the PL2 and won awards. Chilwell 25 matches. Hamza 40 matches."

 

"Steve, we're worried you're not playing young players."

 

"Last match I played two 17 year olds and two 18 year olds."

 

"Steve, we don't like your style of football."

 

"Whatever style the manager wants me to play, I play."

 

"Steve, we want more players in the first team."

 

"We have one player a season. That's up there with the best Premier League clubs."

 

I don't know what contracts u23 coaches are on but I'm assuming it's full time rather than five year contracts etc. I don't think we can just "move him on".

 

 

 

 

 

(*waits for the news of his sacking tomorrow...*)

you realise Chilwell and Barnes basically bypassed the U23s, Barnes played for the second half of the previous season and Hamza looked nothing like the player he does in the first team for the U23s

[Foxxed]

1 minute ago, Jimmy said:

you realise Chilwell and Barnes basically bypassed the U23s, Barnes played for the second half of the previous season and Hamza looked nothing like the player he does in the first team for the U23s

 

Barnes and Chilwell each played a season in the u23 with 20 matches each.

 

Hamza looked great in the u23s.

[Foxxed]

17 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

You raise some good counter points to someone like me who for a long while has questioned why those in charge of the academy have largely remained untouched, despite the rest of the club being transformed beyond recognition. I asked this time and time again because I believed it was a jobs for the boys culture still spearheaded by Jon Rudkin who's talents herald from the academy and he still has huge influence over it. 

 

I could be wrong but I have a couple of people I know who have been involved with the academy before who back this up in a round about manner, certainly enough for people like me to question nothing much ever changing in the academy.

 

In terms of whether Beaglehole warrants the sack due to tangible metric results isn't really consistent with how football operates is it? Many positions in football, even first team managers are moved on without there being publicized analysis of why they have failed. I think the telling thing here if Beaglehole has been moved on is the shift in his methodology. Suddenly picking a cluster of younger players from the U18's after years of being reluctant to do so suggests to me he was instructed to do so, in which case powers above have stepped in and you're on dodgy ground there. But the timing of a change makes sense, we are entering an era where we are building training facilities amongst the best in Europe. The model is we have the best tools to improve our players and the best coaches we can get our hands on. Rodgers is renown as being able to improve players, getting a new U23 manager and possibly U18 manager isn't a surprise, even if it is much harder to measure their performance based on results of matches or how many academy players are sniffing around the first team. It ought to be that simple and perhaps dismissing that is a convenient way of brushing things under the carpet. 

 

I can't ignore the horrible football though in our U23's, nor the penchant for physical and aggressive players prospering. I see little value in players aged 21-23 making up the numbers for the U23's that haven't yet got anywhere near our first team nor either been on loan or done well on loan, it smacks of short term desire to have the U23 team being more competitive in matches. If that's the only way we stand a chance of staying in the PL2 league then I'd rather us not be there, let's try and build it properly.

It all depends on what contract Beaglehole has. It may be a normal full time contract. If so, it's constructive dismissal if they get rid of him without just cause.

 

Here are the player ages the last time the u23s played:

 

1   V. Johansson     - 20
6   A. Pașcanu       - 20
2   D. Barkers       - 18
5   S. Hughes        - 22
8   K. Dewsbury-Hall   - 20
11  T. Leshabela     - 19
4   L. Sherif        - 20
9   C. Tee           - 18
3   L. Thomas        - 17
7   T. Shade         - 18
10  L. Ndukwu        - 20

Substitutes
S. Tavares    - 17
T. Pennant    - 16
R. Loft       - 21
J. Kranthove  - 18
R. Davies     - 19

 

Our u23s are on average 19 years old. We only have two players aged 21 or above.

 

Source: https://uk.soccerway.com/teams/england/leicester-city-u23/37159/

Edited 22 May 2019 by Foxxed

[Foxxed]

18 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

You raise some good counter points to someone like me who for a long while has questioned why those in charge of the academy have largely remained untouched, despite the rest of the club being transformed beyond recognition. I asked this time and time again because I believed it was a jobs for the boys culture still spearheaded by Jon Rudkin who's talents herald from the academy and he still has huge influence over it. 

 

I could be wrong but I have a couple of people I know who have been involved with the academy before who back this up in a round about manner, certainly enough for people like me to question nothing much ever changing in the academy.

 

In terms of whether Beaglehole warrants the sack due to tangible metric results isn't really consistent with how football operates is it? Many positions in football, even first team managers are moved on without there being publicized analysis of why they have failed. I think the telling thing here if Beaglehole has been moved on is the shift in his methodology. Suddenly picking a cluster of younger players from the U18's after years of being reluctant to do so suggests to me he was instructed to do so, in which case powers above have stepped in and you're on dodgy ground there. But the timing of a change makes sense, we are entering an era where we are building training facilities amongst the best in Europe. The model is we have the best tools to improve our players and the best coaches we can get our hands on. Rodgers is renown as being able to improve players, getting a new U23 manager and possibly U18 manager isn't a surprise, even if it is much harder to measure their performance based on results of matches or how many academy players are sniffing around the first team. It ought to be that simple and perhaps dismissing that is a convenient way of brushing things under the carpet. 

 

I can't ignore the horrible football though in our U23's, nor the penchant for physical and aggressive players prospering. I see little value in players aged 21-23 making up the numbers for the U23's that haven't yet got anywhere near our first team nor either been on loan or done well on loan, it smacks of short term desire to have the U23 team being more competitive in matches. If that's the only way we stand a chance of staying in the PL2 league then I'd rather us not be there, let's try and build it properly.

This is the main point we can agree on. The fact Hughes was our top scorer a while ago seems to prove your point. (Although I can't remember any u23 teams playing attractive football tbh... And before Christmas I actually enjoyed watching our u23s.)

 

More specifically, I tend to think Beaglehole will help defensive players like Hamza and Knight rather than attacking players like Tee and Ndukwu. (Obviously Barnes is very attacking minded and spent a season in the u23s in total but he came to the u23s already accomplished)

 

If we can find a coach who's as good with strikers and creative midfielders as Beaglehole is with defenders (and also that good) then great. But most of the criticism against Beaglehole seems vaguely personal rather than "yeah we should find a u23 coach who's better with attacking players ".

[Ric Flair]

1 hour ago, Foxxed said:

This is the main point we can agree on. The fact Hughes was our top scorer a while ago seems to prove your point. (Although I can't remember any u23 teams playing attractive football tbh... And before Christmas I actually enjoyed watching our u23s.)

 

More specifically, I tend to think Beaglehole will help defensive players like Hamza and Knight rather than attacking players like Tee and Ndukwu. (Obviously Barnes is very attacking minded and spent a season in the u23s in total but he came to the u23s already accomplished)

 

If we can find a coach who's as good with strikers and creative midfielders as Beaglehole is with defenders (and also that good) then great. But most of the criticism against Beaglehole seems vaguely personal rather than "yeah we should find a u23 coach who's better with attacking players ".

We got a very well respected academy coach from Norwich a year or so ago, not sure if he is still with us but I remember at the time being impressed with his background. The name escapes me but perhaps they will promote from within.

[lgfualol]

4 hours ago, Foxxed said:

It all depends on what contract Beaglehole has. It may be a normal full time contract. If so, it's constructive dismissal if they get rid of him without just cause.

 

Here are the player ages the last time the u23s played:

 

1   V. Johansson     - 20
6   A. Pașcanu       - 20
2   D. Barkers       - 18
5   S. Hughes        - 22
8   K. Dewsbury-Hall   - 20
11  T. Leshabela     - 19
4   L. Sherif        - 20
9   C. Tee           - 18
3   L. Thomas        - 17
7   T. Shade         - 18
10  L. Ndukwu        - 20

Substitutes
S. Tavares    - 17
T. Pennant    - 16
R. Loft       - 21
J. Kranthove  - 18
R. Davies     - 19

 

Our u23s are on average 19 years old. We only have two players aged 21 or above.

 

Source: https://uk.soccerway.com/teams/england/leicester-city-u23/37159/

Yeah but before Rodgers came half of those were barely if not ever involved in u23s. Someone obviously got told to promote the likes of Tavares, Pennant etc and most of them have under 5 appearances over the season.

 

I doubt the club are quivering in their boots about Beaglehole taking them to court for getting sacked. 

Edited 22 May 2019 by lgfualol

[Foxxed]

21 minutes ago, lgfualol said:

Yeah but before Rodgers came half of those were barely if not ever involved in u23s. Someone obviously got told to promote the likes of Tavares, Pennant etc. 

 

I doubt the club are quivering in their boots about Beaglehole taking them to court for getting sacked. 

So Beaglehole is now doing something good? Great.

[lcfc sheff]

Anyone know is Dempsey arlott John is any good? 

 

Quick google led me to found out his brother is Kairo Edwards John, also of our academy (I think) 

[Foxxed]

35 minutes ago, lcfc sheff said:

Anyone know is Dempsey arlott John is any good? 

 

Quick google led me to found out his brother is Kairo Edwards John, also of our academy (I think) 

Was in the Hong Kong 7s as a sub. Quick and hard working. Six goals in 840 minutes for the u18 apparently. Didn't light the place up in the 7s but he's 17 and didn't play so much. The goal Gyamfi scored was from a saved shot from Dempsey. Kairo is 19 and played about 20 minutes for the u23s as a striker. Dempsey has a better scoring record.

Edited 23 May 2019 by Foxxed

[Ric Flair]

15 minutes ago, Foxxed said:

Was in the Hong Kong sevens as a sub. Quick and hard working. Six goals in 840 minutes for the u18 apparently. Didn't light the place up in the 7s but he's 17 and didn't play so much. The goal Gyamfi scored was from a saved shot from Dempsey.

Only seen him a couple of times, his performance in the FA Youth Cup when we somehow got beaten by Cambridge I think it was, was very good. Looked the complete package but I think he's got a long way to go.

[lcfc sheff]

50 minutes ago, Foxxed said:

Was in the Hong Kong 7s as a sub. Quick and hard working. Six goals in 840 minutes for the u18 apparently. Didn't light the place up in the 7s but he's 17 and didn't play so much. The goal Gyamfi scored was from a saved shot from Dempsey. Kairo is 19 and played about 20 minutes for the u23s as a striker. Dempsey has a better scoring record.

Thanks so much for that! I’m desperate to see a striker come through the academy fingers crossed Dempsey has the ability.

 

 

[Foxxed]

50 minutes ago, lcfc sheff said:

Thanks so much for that! I’m desperate to see a striker come through the academy fingers crossed Dempsey has the ability.

 

 

Various places on the internet are clamining, probably incorrectly, that he's a midfielder. I swore he came on for Loft in the 7s though. Whatever is the case, I think Ric is right: he's got a long way to go.

[ramadaone]

On 16/01/2019 at 19:17, davieG said:

Head of Technical Coaching: Dmitri Halajko