Brexit - Has anybody actually changed their minds?

[Vacamion]

 

I *have* changed my mind since the Brexit vote - not about Brexit (I voted remain, despite the problems with the EU), but about Scottish Independence.

 

Watching coverage of Westminster, especially recently, I see a lot of these overconfident safe seat Tory / ERG Old Etonians from the Home Counties, braying in parliamentary debates.

 

They won't be any poorer, whatever happens. Some have already moved their money to safety.

 

Having observed those guys, I now understand why people up here in Scotland might want to exist in a different polity.

 

And since 2016, the whole "Yes, we'll be poorer but, err, flags and sovereignty..." thing has kind of lost its sting.

 

I was a firm Unionist in 2014.  Now, I am struggling to maintain affection for the Union.

 

I suspect a lot of former "No" voters feel that way, so I reckon next time around, Scotland is offski.

 

[Guest MattP]

8 hours ago, Charl91 said:

Yes, more democracy would be the end of democracy. 

 

Can't wait for the second referendum.

If people genuinely want more referendums for more democracy I'll get right behind it. We can have referendums on tax rates, immigration, nuclear weapons - everything. I'm well up for that if they really mean more democracy delegated to the public.

 

The problem is we know these people are lying, they don't want a second referendum for more democracy, they want it to overturn a result they didn't like and then that will be the end of it. (Unless Leave wins then they obviously campaign for a third, probably after "transition")

[Guest MattP]

18 minutes ago, Vacamion said:

I was a firm Unionist in 2014.  Now, I am struggling to maintain affection for the Union.

 

I suspect a lot of former "No" voters feel that way, so I reckon next time around, Scotland is offski.

Polling shows support for Scottish independence is lower now than it was in 2014.

 

Probably more to do with the incompetence of the SNP but this referendum actually causes more problems for their cause than it solves, not to mention the likelihood Spain would veto any attempt to rejoin the EU anyway.

 

Next Scottish referendum they are going to have to answer the same questions about a hard border but with it being even more difficult between Scotland and England. 

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

Except the bit about leaving the single market and customs union, and the taking back control bit.  Oh and not signing over our future to the EU27 whim.

apart from that great!

Was all that on the ballot paper? I don't recall that.

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Was all that on the ballot paper? I don't recall that.

It wasn't - but it was explicitly said by leaders of the leave and remain campaigns.

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

It wasn't - but it was explicitly said by leaders of the leave and remain campaigns.

Clumsy of them not to put it on the ballot paper then.

[Buce]

1 hour ago, Matt_Lcfc said:

The problem with this thread is that some people want the benefits from being in the EU without being in it.

I wasn’t old enough to vote but I’d have votes remain. I’m pro EU for a number of reasons. It does have disadvantages, to an extent, I understand the sovereignty argument but the economic factors outweigh the disadvantages. 

Funny that this decision will affect me the most yet I didn’t get a vote 

 

Even worse, the decision to leave was made to a large extent by people who won’t live to see the consequences. 

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Matt_Lcfc said:

The problem with this thread is that some people want the benefits from being in the EU without being in it.

I wasn’t old enough to vote but I’d have votes remain. I’m pro EU for a number of reasons. It does have disadvantages, to an extent, I understand the sovereignty argument but the economic factors outweigh the disadvantages. 

Funny that this decision will affect me the most yet I didn’t get a vote 

Don't be so egocentric and melodramatic.

 

It isn't you who is affected most at all. People who live abroad and foreign europeans in the UK will more than likely be affected more than you, then there are the people who work abroad or live abroad and work in the Uk, then there are....

 

Being young you may be affected for longer but unlikely the most.

 

Anyway are you suggesting that children and those not yet born or even conceived should get a vote?

 

Just like you've been relying on your parents for the food you eat, the clothes you wear and the roof you shelter under you,ve had to rely on them to make the right decision in a vote - as in every vote.

 

Who really knows how bad or good it is going to be for you, your parents and your eventual kids anyway?

 

 

9 hours ago, koop. said:

I haven't read through the last 4 pages yet but I'm going to say it..... 

 

Boris would have sorted this shit out. It's a shambles, read his book, the guy knows what's needed. 

 

He spent a lot of time in European politics and unfortunately we were left with a remainer who reluctantly had to leave 

 

That should be in the unpopular opinions thread. Most people think Boris is a complete buffoon and as in touch with reality as his father.

[Finnaldo]

My position was near-Eurosceptic, I'm not opposed to the European Union but I'm discouraged by a few of the actions it's taken (keen membership expansion seemingly just to get countries within it's sphere, Greece, the entire Catalonia tragedy). However I felt we were better in to reform and even if that wasn't the case, we didn't have a strong enough government (or politicians in general for that matter) and the geopolitical situation was not in our favour enough to negotiate an ideal Brexit. Now I'm more convicted that is the case.

 

1 hour ago, Vacamion said:

 

I *have* changed my mind since the Brexit vote - not about Brexit (I voted remain, despite the problems with the EU), but about Scottish Independence.

 

Watching coverage of Westminster, especially recently, I see a lot of these overconfident safe seat Tory / ERG Old Etonians from the Home Counties, braying in parliamentary debates.

 

They won't be any poorer, whatever happens. Some have already moved their money to safety.

 

Having observed those guys, I now understand why people up here in Scotland might want to exist in a different polity.

 

And since 2016, the whole "Yes, we'll be poorer but, err, flags and sovereignty..." thing has kind of lost its sting.

 

I was a firm Unionist in 2014.  Now, I am struggling to maintain affection for the Union.

 

I suspect a lot of former "No" voters feel that way, so I reckon next time around, Scotland is offski.

 

 

This is my biggest fear to be honest, within 10 years we could be in the position of being in an awful economic position and ultimately being England & Wales. The alternative is we're in a worse position now but just out the EU.

 

I really, really can't see any advantage to this.

[Alf Bentley]

32 minutes ago, MattP said:

It wasn't - but it was explicitly said by leaders of the leave and remain campaigns.

 

Some Leave leaders (Gove) said this clearly from the outset, others were unclear or avoided the question until late on.

Remain leaders said we'd have to leave the SM/CU....but as a scare tactic, part of their Project Fear, which is rightly denigrated.

 

Other things Leave leaders said: the EU can "whistle for" any divorce payment; these negotiations will be really easy; we're in a strong negotiating position due to German car makers; we'll have loads of global trade deals ready to go by March 2019 etc.

 

Other things Remain leaders said: there'll be an immediate recession & major job losses; there'll be an emergency budget etc.

 

Nick Clegg said he'd get rid of tuition fees.

 

Politicians of every stripe say stuff. Quite a lot of it turns out to be unachievable wish lists, vote-seeking propaganda, miscalculations or downright lies. Shock, horror! 

 

The only thing we voted for was to leave the EU.

[Carl the Llama]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

If people genuinely want more referendums for more democracy I'll get right behind it. We can have referendums on tax rates, immigration, nuclear weapons - everything. I'm well up for that if they really mean more democracy delegated to the public.

 

The problem is we know these people are lying, they don't want a second referendum for more democracy, they want it to overturn a result they didn't like and then that will be the end of it. (Unless Leave wins then they obviously campaign for a third, probably after "transition")

In many ways it would have been easier if remain won because that would have been the end of it, leavers would have dropped the issue there and we'd be a united nation again.

[Matt_Lcfc]

20 minutes ago, FIF said:

Don't be so egocentric and melodramatic.

 

It isn't you who is affected most at all. People who live abroad and foreign europeans in the UK will more than likely be affected more than you, then there are the people who work abroad or live abroad and work in the Uk, then there are....

 

Being young you may be affected for longer but unlikely the most.

 

Anyway are you suggesting that children and those not yet born or even conceived should get a vote?

 

Just like you've been relying on your parents for the food you eat, the clothes you wear and the roof you shelter under you,ve had to rely on them to make the right decision in a vote - as in every vote.

 

Who really knows how bad or good it is going to be for you, your parents and your eventual kids anyway?

 

 

 

That should be in the unpopular opinions thread. Most people think Boris is a complete buffoon and as in touch with reality as his father.

Where did I state in my post that I believed I should have had the vote? Did i say that? No, I didn’t and you’ve clearly misinterpreted what I was saying.

 

And of course I’m not, don’t be so ridiculous. What I’m saying is that this is the world that I’m growing into and there’s politicians pissing around, fighting for power and playing Russian roulette. Brexit will be detramental, even if it isn’t we’d be better off staying in the EU.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Matt_Lcfc said:

 

Funny that this decision will affect me the most yet I didn’t get a vote 

 

5 minutes ago, Matt_Lcfc said:

Where did I state in my post that I believed I should have had the vote? Did i say that? No, I didn’t and you’ve clearly misinterpreted what I was saying.

 

And of course I’m not, don’t be so ridiculous. What I’m saying is that this is the world that I’m growing into and there’s politicians pissing around, fighting for power and playing Russian roulette. Brexit will be detramental, even if it isn’t we’d be better off staying in the EU.

 

I apologise then Matt, the end of the sentence in the first quote is what made me think that you were annoyed that people of voting age should get to vote and that you didn't. I also think the first part of the same quote fully justifies my response saying that you are not the most affected.

 

Politicians or even worse, non elected men have always and will always fight for power and do this sort of thing. Better that you have the chance to vote for them than they are simply immovible forces (like big business of today).

 

Brexit probably will be detrimental to the UK, it will also be detrimental to the EU but you really have no idea if staying in would be better for the UK. I think the EU has already entered a downward spiral and you may find that life within the EU isn't so rosy in the next few decades either.

 

You have to make the most of the situation that you are in and get on with it.

[Matt_Lcfc]

1 minute ago, FIF said:

 

 

I apologise then Matt, the end of the sentence in the first quote is what made me think that you were annoyed that people of voting age should get to vote and that you didn't. I also think the first part of the same quote fully justifies my response saying that you are not the most affected.

 

Politicians or even worse, non elected men have always and will always fight for power and do this sort of thing. Better that you have the chance to vote for them than they are simply immovible forces (like big business of today).

 

Brexit probably will be detrimental to the UK, it will also be detrimental to the EU but you really have no idea if staying in would be better for the UK. I think the EU has already entered a downward spiral and you may find that life within the EU isn't so rosy in the next few decades either.

 

You have to make the most of the situation that you are in and get on with it.

No problem mate .

Voting age is a funny one for me, to an extent, I find it irritating I cannot vote. I’d like to believe that I could make an educated, justified and most importantly  a sensible decision. But, however, it’d scare me if some people my age had the vote, but i guess that loons exist in every generation. 

 

I’m not too sure whether the EU is in a “downward spiral”. Even if it is/was it’d be best to stay in the EU and continue the trade deals and most importantly stay in the single market.

 

i don’t get this argument “we’ve booked the trend”, we really haven’t. There are no European countries campaigning to leave the European Union, seeing how, it’s actually very detrimental. 

 

[davieG]

14 hours ago, RODNEY FERNIO said:

Just out of interest are there any posters on here that voted on the original 1975 referendum to go into the EC ?

17 million voted to go into the EC IN 1975 and 17 million voted to leave in 2016.

So anyone on here that is at least 61 years of age would have been able to vote in 1975.

Yes and no.

 

It wasn't a vote to go in it was a vote to confirm that we should remain, Heath had already signed us up and like today's politicians lied about what it meant.

 

It also wasn't the EU then but the Common Market so was more a less a trading agreement to get member countries to have the same industrial, business and financial standards to aid imports and exports so completely different to what we have today so it's not relevant at all to the current debate.

 

Being in engineering design I voted in because I could see the benefit of standardisation even though it meant we had to change a lot of the existing British Standards.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Matt_Lcfc said:

No problem mate .

Voting age is a funny one for me, to an extent, I find it irritating I cannot vote. I’d like to believe that I could make an educated, justified and most importantly  a sensible decision. But, however, it’d scare me if some people my age had the vote, but i guess that loons exist in every generation. 

 

I’m not too sure whether the EU is in a “downward spiral”. Even if it is/was it’d be best to stay in the EU and continue the trade deals and most importantly stay in the single market.

 

i don’t get this argument “we’ve booked the trend”, we really haven’t. There are no European countries campaigning to leave the European Union, seeing how, it’s actually very detrimental. 

 

It's good that you find it irritating that you can't vote as maybe you will become a good voter in the future. You are showing an interest and an understanding of the need to vote and to be able to work out what the politicians are meaning. If everyone was like you maybe politics and voting would be so much better.

 

I fully agree with you that the UK should have stayed in the EU if they were looking for economic stability but that wasn't what the people who voted leave were wanting. If I understand it was about getting power to make decisions back from the EU and being able to control who goes in and out of the UK. This was always going to be at a cost.

 

I live on the continent, so I have an alternate view. IMO The EU has been in decline for a while because of it's rapid growth and conflicting needs. I can see the French becoming more and more upset at having to "foot the bill" for all the new countries and the countries who have been badly managed, especially now that they won't have the UK footing a large part of the bill. The poorer countries are in it to become richer, to get work and opportunites. These come at the expense of the richer countries. The rise of extremism is loud over here on the continent. I can see big problems over the next 20 years.

 

anyway it's lunchtime. bye.

[Manwell Pablo]

I was remain, now I'm even more remain. Predictably the government isn't capable of delivering a Brexit deal that doesn't either cripple the country on one hand and on the other, doesn't deliver the "freedom" (whatever the fck that is) from the EU and pretty much practically leaves in anyway but without a say on what goes on while the Germans run the show.

 

I can't believe people haven't changed their minds. Totally shot ourselves in the foot.

[Buce]

21 minutes ago, FIF said:

It's good that you find it irritating that you can't vote as maybe you will become a good voter in the future. You are showing an interest and an understanding of the need to vote and to be able to work out what the politicians are meaning. If everyone was like you maybe politics and voting would be so much better.

 

I fully agree with you that the UK should have stayed in the EU if they were looking for economic stability but that wasn't what the people who voted leave were wanting. If I understand it was about getting power to make decisions back from the EU and being able to control who goes in and out of the UK. This was always going to be at a cost.

 

I live on the continent, so I have an alternate view. IMO The EU has been in decline for a while because of it's rapid growth and conflicting needs. I can see the French becoming more and more upset at having to "foot the bill" for all the new countries and the countries who have been badly managed, especially now that they won't have the UK footing a large part of the bill. The poorer countries are in it to become richer, to get work and opportunites. These come at the expense of the richer countries. The rise of extremism is loud over here on the continent. I can see big problems over the next 20 years.

 

anyway it's lunchtime. bye.

 

And therein lies the problem. They were lead to believe that not only would they get the things they voted for, but everyone would get free unicorns and everything in the garden would be lovely. Nobody voted for this shitstorm. 

[Guest MattP]

2 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

Clumsy of them not to put it on the ballot paper then.

Electoral Commission wouldn't have allowed it, quite right as well given...

 

1) Totally unfair - as it would the other way having "Remain - more integration"

 

2) In the (very unlikely) event of the EU bending the rules for us it would have been ridiculous to actually make a full commitment to doing so.

 

2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

Some Leave leaders (Gove) said this clearly from the outset, others were unclear or avoided the question until late on.

Remain leaders said we'd have to leave the SM/CU....but as a scare tactic, part of their Project Fear, which is rightly denigrated.

 

Other things Leave leaders said: the EU can "whistle for" any divorce payment; these negotiations will be really easy; we're in a strong negotiating position due to German car makers; we'll have loads of global trade deals ready to go by March 2019 etc.

 

Other things Remain leaders said: there'll be an immediate recession & major job losses; there'll be an emergency budget etc.

 

Nick Clegg said he'd get rid of tuition fees.

 

Politicians of every stripe say stuff. Quite a lot of it turns out to be unachievable wish lists, vote-seeking propaganda, miscalculations or downright lies. Shock, horror! 

 

The only thing we voted for was to leave the EU.

I don't actually disagree. 

 

I've reconciled myself to the fact now that virtually anything said in any election or referendum has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

I've also come to the view that even a Norway style exit does satisfy the result of the referendum - mainly because of the extreme factions on both sides who seem to have gone crazy.

 

On one side, those who want to overturn the result because they don't like it, as Alan Johnson (still the best Labout rep going) said on This Week last night, it's an absolutely outrageous thing to try and do when you actually think about it. Then you've got the Hard Brexit mob who even I don't want to be associated with anymore, who seemed prepared to completely tear to shreds everything and everyone to drag us into a WTO Brexit. 

 

It really is time for the moderates in both parties to come together and work out a way to get 326 votes between them to end this.

 

2 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

In many ways it would have been easier if remain won because that would have been the end of it, leavers would have dropped the issue there and we'd be a united nation again.

Haha.

 

On a serious point though whatever happens I'm delighted leave won the original vote just so Cameron, Osborne and the rest of the BSE crowd didn't get away with a Project Fear - had they won we'd still be being told now our vote to leave would have caused an emergency budget, 300000 job losses and an immediate recession. Even if the decision is reversed I'm glad the smug bastards didn't get away with that. 

 

30 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

I can't believe people haven't changed their minds. Totally shot ourselves in the foot.

Really? If your core belief revolves around the highest court in your country having jurisdiction and you support independent trade policy you aren't going to change just because the organisation you vote against refuses to let you have it.

 

Most people I know - Remain or Leave - have hardened their positions post referendum and I don't see why either side wouldn't continue to do so.

Edited 14 December 2018 by MattP

[Manwell Pablo]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Electoral Comission wouldn't have allowed it, quite right as well given...

 

1) Totally unfair - as it would the other way having "Remain - more integration"

 

2) In the (very unlikely) event of the EU bending the rules for us it would have been ridiculous to actually make a full commitment to doing so.

 

I don't actually disagree. 

 

I've reconciled myself to the fact now that virtually anything said in any election or referendum has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

I've also come to the view that even a Norway style exit does satisfy the result of the referendum - mainly because of the extreme factions on both sides who seem to have gone crazy.

 

On one side, those who want to overturn the result because they don't like it, as Alan Johnson said on This Week last might, it's an absolutely outrageous thing to try and do when you actually think about it. Then you've got the Hard Brexit mob who even I don't want to be associated with anymore, who seemed prepared to completely tear to shreds everything and everyone to drag us into a WTO Brexit. 

 

It really is time for the moderates in both parties to come together and work out a way to get 326 votes between them to end this.

 

Haha.

 

On a serious point though whatever happens I'm delighted leave won the original vote just so Cameron, Osborne and the rest of the BSE crowd didn't get away with a Project Fear - had they won we'd still be being told now our vote to leave would have caused an emergency budget, 300000 job losses and an immediate recession. Even if the decision is reversed I'm glad the smug bastards didn't get away with that. 

 

Really? If your core belief revolves around the highest court in your country having jurisdiction and you support independent trade policy you aren't going to change just because the organisation you vote against refuses to let you have it.

 

Most people I know - Remain or Leave - have hardened their positions post referendum and I don't see why either side wouldn't continue to do so.

 

What's the point in having an independent trade policy if it negatively impacts the economy.

 

None. 

Edited 14 December 2018 by Manwell Pablo

[Guest MattP]

6 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

What's the point in having an independent trade policy if it negatively impacts the economy.

 

None. 

You are making the mistake all remain voters made before the referendum, not everyone votes on the basis of economics, to some people autonomy and self-determination are of a far higher priority.

There is a very similar situation now with Labour voters under the Corbyn leadership, most probably know his policies will be detrimental to the economy but they are prepared to take the risk as they believe it might be fairer and the wealth that is created will be more evenly spread, if they do fair play to them as well, at least it's a principled decision.

[Manwell Pablo]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

You are making the mistake all remain voters made before the referendum, not everyone votes on the basis of economics, to some people autonomy and self-determination are of a far higher priority.

There is a very similar situation now with Labour voters under the Corbyn leadership, most probably know his policies will be detrimental to the economy but they are prepared to take the risk as they believe it might be fairer and the wealth that is created will be more evenly spread, if they do fair play to them as well, at least it's a principled decision.

 

Surely when it comes to trade this is literally the only thing that should be taken into account. 

 

I mean you can make sentimental arguments for other parts of the Brexit deal but surely when it comes to trade it is all about numbers. 

[Guest MattP]

Just now, Manwell Pablo said:

Surely when it comes to trade this is literally the only thing that should be taken into account. 

 

I mean you can make sentimental arguments for other parts of the Brexit deal but surely when it comes to trade it is all about numbers. 

Even if you do how do you be the judge of that, who it effects the most and how long do we try to forecast? There is little doubt at this point in time the Single Market is the most important thing for our trade, there is also little doubt that in 50 years time it won't be given all the rapidly emerging markets in the World are outside of it and as a % our trade with the EU is getting lower and lower by the year. Do we also take into account the debt levels in the European Union (or the USA for that matter to counter it) and try to predict how closer ties to it will effect us when the Euro goes pop again?

Do you make decisions on what part of society of effects the most as well? I mean we have big tariffs on footwear, food and clothing because of the EU which is what the poorest spend a bigger portion of their income on than the richest. There are so many variables to this it's impossible to give any sort of definitive answer over any sort of time period about what the best course of action is.

I'm rambling now as and as it's gone 12pm it's acceptable to have a beer.

[Manwell Pablo]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Even if you do how do you be the judge of that, who it effects the most and how long do we try to forecast? There is little doubt at this point in time the Single Market is the most important thing for our trade, there is also little doubt that in 50 years time it won't be given all the rapidly emerging markets in the World are outside of it and as a % our trade with the EU is getting lower and lower by the year. Do we also take into account the debt levels in the European Union (or the USA for that matter to counter it) and try to predict how closer ties to it will effect us when the Euro goes pop again?

Do you make decisions on what part of society of effects the most as well? I mean we have big tariffs on footwear, food and clothing because of the EU which is what the poorest spend a bigger portion of their income on than the richest. There are so many variables to this it's impossible to give any sort of definitive answer over any sort of time period about what the best course of action is.

I'm rambling now as and as it's gone 12pm it's acceptable to have a beer.

 

I think the forecast that we are ****ed for at least 15 years is more than enough for me but there we are. The beer thing is hard to argue with though.

[Guest MattP]

May seems pretty angry here, I bet Juncker is absolutely steaming as well given it's 1.30pm in Brussels.
 

 

Edited 14 December 2018 by MattP