Brexit - Has anybody actually changed their minds?

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

I think the forecast that we are ****ed for at least 15 years is more than enough for me but there we are. The beer thing is hard to argue with though.

Given the BoE or the Treasury can't accurately forecast six months into the future I wouldn't worry about anything in 15 years - by then artificial intelligence will have had such an effect on our part of the World anything could have happened.

[Vacamion]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

Polling shows support for Scottish independence is lower now than it was in 2014.

 

Probably more to do with the incompetence of the SNP but this referendum actually causes more problems for their cause than it solves, not to mention the likelihood Spain would veto any attempt to rejoin the EU anyway.

 

Next Scottish referendum they are going to have to answer the same questions about a hard border but with it being even more difficult between Scotland and England. 

 

Polls in 2014 varied between 35 and 51 for yes 

 

I fully accept that my observation was anecdotal, just based on what I feel and others around me who voted no last time have said to me, but if you think the recent chaos at Westminster has helped the cause of unionism, I would disagree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 14 December 2018 by Vacamion

[Matt_Lcfc]

1 hour ago, FIF said:

It's good that you find it irritating that you can't vote as maybe you will become a good voter in the future. You are showing an interest and an understanding of the need to vote and to be able to work out what the politicians are meaning. If everyone was like you maybe politics and voting would be so much better.

 

I fully agree with you that the UK should have stayed in the EU if they were looking for economic stability but that wasn't what the people who voted leave were wanting. If I understand it was about getting power to make decisions back from the EU and being able to control who goes in and out of the UK. This was always going to be at a cost.

 

I live on the continent, so I have an alternate view. IMO The EU has been in decline for a while because of it's rapid growth and conflicting needs. I can see the French becoming more and more upset at having to "foot the bill" for all the new countries and the countries who have been badly managed, especially now that they won't have the UK footing a large part of the bill. The poorer countries are in it to become richer, to get work and opportunites. These come at the expense of the richer countries. The rise of extremism is loud over here on the continent. I can see big problems over the next 20 years.

 

anyway it's lunchtime. bye.

Cheers mate. To an extent, I get the argument that maybe the “EU is in decline”. Since the expansion of the EU and Eastern European countries joining then there is a free movement worker. If I was an economist I’d be potentially saying that the free movement means lower wages in manual labour, dragging more people into poverty.

 

however, as a geographer id be saying migration is good for 3 reasons:

it supports a UK ageing population 

it fills low skilled labour

allows more cultural diverse UK

 

Despite being pro remain, there are some downsides as said above. However, as I’ve already stated it does bring more benefits to the UK than negatives and is very much a safe bet.

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, Vacamion said:

Polls in 2014 varied between 35 and 51 for yes 

 

I fully accept that observation was anecdotal, just based on what I feel and others around me who voted no last time have said to me, but if you think the recent chaos at Westminster has helped the cause of unionism, I would disagree.

You are in Glasgow though

 

I certainly don't think it's helped the cause of unionism, but it does make the actual case for independence harder when the debate comes around because they'll have to seriously propose solutions for a change in border and currency, something they seemed to get away with last time.

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, MattP said:

Given the BoE or the Treasury can't accurately forecast six months into the future I wouldn't worry about anything in 15 years - by then artificial intelligence will have had such an effect on our part of the World anything could have happened.

 

You have much interest in Sci/Tech development, Matt?

 

Know it's verging offtopic but I'm genuinely interested.

[Captain...]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

unicorns

Favourite quote from this whole mess is:

”If you vote for unicorns don’t be surprised if you get a donkey with a dildo stuck to its head”

[Guest MattP]

Just now, leicsmac said:

You have much interest in Sci/Tech development, Matt?

 

Know it's verging offtopic but I'm genuinely interested.

Certainly when it comes to watching and reading things about it, but I don't have the intelligence or depth of knowledge on the subject to discuss it in any great detail that anybody would take anything positive from me, hence why I read but stay out of the Science thread. I get myself into a state at times looking up at the Sun or Stars and trying to imagine how all of this came about, I get into a total headfcuk when I start to think about the Sun still burning in 5 billion years.

The rate we are developing at actually scares me a little, although sometimes maybe not

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/12/high-tech-robot-at-russia-forum-turns-out-to-be-man-in-robot-suit

[leicsmac]

Just now, MattP said:

Certainly when it comes to watching and reading things about it, but I don't have the intelligence or depth of knowledge on the subject to discuss it in any great detail that anybody would take anything positive from me, hence why I read but stay out of the Science thread. I get myself into a state at times looking up at the Sun or Stars and trying to imagine how all of this came about, I get into a total headfcuk when I start to think about the Sun still burning in 5 billion years.

The rate we are developing at actually scares me a little, although sometimes maybe not

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/12/high-tech-robot-at-russia-forum-turns-out-to-be-man-in-robot-suit

Yeah, I saw that one too.

 

It is verging on a philosophical discussion (hope you got that beer) but I honestly take great comfort from the size and scale of the Universe simply because it reminds me that we're way too small to be part of or influence some "great plan" as some folks often claim, and so the meaning we have is only what we create for ourselves. That's liberating for me, not scary.

 

I can see what you mean about the rate of change and development being scary, but if evolutionary history has taught us anything it's that beings that don't adapt and change (often quickly) don't tend to last long - so I think it a necessary chance.

 

Anyway, thanks for the answer, as you were.

[Buce]

27 minutes ago, MattP said:

Given the BoE or the Treasury can't accurately forecast six months into the future I wouldn't worry about anything in 15 years - by then artificial intelligence will have had such an effect on our part of the World anything could have happened.

 

Unfortunately, artificial intelligence will never be a match for human stupidity. 

[gw_leics772]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

 

 

It really is time for the moderates in both parties to come together and work out a way to get 326 votes between them to end this.

 

Although said in jest, and not for the same reasons as me, you are close to the far more radical thoughts i had...

 

This was the time to rip up the political parties and have remain on one side and leave on the other so we could at least vote for a party that accuarately represents us rather than the current pro remainers (or ex pro remainer - tm the pm) trying to do something she doesnt believe in, surrounded by people who dont agree with her.

 

 

[simFox]

I was going to vote leave, but I was out the UK at the time. So was my wife.

 

If there was another referendum, we'd both vote leave. Few mates at work are the same, withing out the UK makes it easy to miss, won't happen again.

 

I post on a few army Facebook groups and it's all Pro leave, I bet there's a fair few who would turn out the second time.

[Great Boos Up]

Went to vote but didn't as I really didn't know. Still don't.

Those who I've told this to:

Leave say "I can understand but... "idealistic argument"

Remain say " insert expletive anger"

 

The staus quo is good and change could be good too.

So to summarise Leave want an unrealistic change and Remain are just angry about change.

 

The OP asks if I've changed my mind. No.

[Trav Le Bleu]

The thing that might change the result would be the 28% of people who didn't vote at all. It could be argued that not voting is an indication of being satisfied with the current situation, but it's more likely apathy or a disbelief in the political system. The fact is, both leavers and remainers were in the minority, if you include the other 28%.

 

Also note that over two years many voters will have died, whilst others will have come of age to vote.

 

With the original result having only a 3.8% difference (meaning a swing of only 2% would give a different result) a different result for a second vote might not be impossible.

 

I say all this as someone who has a complete disbelief in politics in all its forms.

Edited 15 December 2018 by Trav Le Bleu

[z-layrex]

I am even more for leaving than I was before. The UK is a laughing stock right now and the EU has been nothing but smug, like they're not full of unelected drunks.

 

Also many remain voters have been so prejudiced throughout this entire process I just couldn't stomach voting remain this time.

Edited 15 December 2018 by z-layrex

[Buce]

3 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

The thing that might change the result would be the 28% of people who didn't vote at all. It could be argued that not voting is an indication of being satisfied with the current situation, but it's more likely apathy or a disbelief in the political system. The fact is, both leavers and remainers were in the minority, if you include the other 28%.

 

Also note that over two years many voters will have died, whilst others will have come of age to vote.

 

With the original result having only a 3.8% difference (meaning a swing of only 2% would give a different result) a different result for a second vote might not be impossible.

 

I say all this as someone who has a complete disbelief in politics in all its forms.

 

Another way of looking at it is that the 17 million who voted to leave are actually just 25% of the population, not the 52% we are told. 

 

And that’s what they are calling democracy. 

[Trav Le Bleu]

26 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Another way of looking at it is that the 17 million who voted to leave are actually just 25% of the population, not the 52% we are told. 

 

And that’s what they are calling democracy. 

Which is what I said - for both sides.

[Guest ttfn]

1 hour ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

The thing that might change the result would be the 28% of people who didn't vote at all. It could be argued that not voting is an indication of being satisfied with the current situation, but it's more likely apathy or a disbelief in the political system. The fact is, both leavers and remainers were in the minority, if you include the other 28%.

 

Also note that over two years many voters will have died, whilst others will have come of age to vote.

 

With the original result having only a 3.8% difference (meaning a swing of only 2% would give a different result) a different result for a second vote might not be impossible.

 

I say all this as someone who has a complete disbelief in politics in all its forms.

I didn’t vote 2 years ago because I didn’t think I had enough information to make an well-informed decision.

 

I’d vote remain if there was a second referendum.

[EnderbyFox]

Out of interest, will there be any Brexit supporters on here that would take part in the so called "Civil Unrest" should Brexit not happen? Old chap on Radio 2 just now saying he's already bought Body Armour and motorcycle helmets in preparation, along with a yellow vest 

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, EnderbyFox said:

Out of interest, will there be any Brexit supporters on here that would take part in the so called "Civil Unrest" should Brexit not happen? Old chap on Radio 2 just now saying he's already bought Body Armour and motorcycle helmets in preparation, along with a yellow vest 

Hopefully anyone who does will be a bit brighter than those Vote Leave dunces who decided to block an ambulance on Westminster Bridge the other day to "show the establishment"...

 

Fight the power lads! 

[Buce]

 

David Cameron 'advising May on Brexit'.

 

Wow, talk about the blind leading the blind.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46592394

[Lionator]

4 hours ago, EnderbyFox said:

Out of interest, will there be any Brexit supporters on here that would take part in the so called "Civil Unrest" should Brexit not happen? Old chap on Radio 2 just now saying he's already bought Body Armour and motorcycle helmets in preparation, along with a yellow vest 

I've got my zimmerframe and tripe and onion ready to hurl at EU loving students and politicians. 

[Legend_in_blue]

I see she's now called it for the second week in Jan.

 

The only way to solve this mess is to lay both sides out on the table, facts not fiction, and make it compulsory for everyone to have a vote in a second referendum.  Basing the future of the country on a 1.9% difference made up of roughly 25% of the population on both sides having been told a pack of lies does no one any favours.

[fuchsntf]

5 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

Hopefully anyone who does will be a bit brighter than those Vote Leave dunces who decided to block an ambulance on Westminster Bridge the other day to "show the establishment"...

 

Fight the power lads! 

A few hundred go on the street....the French are laughing!!!

 

If a million in 2 or 3 major cities,decided to get off their asses and defend their vote...somebody might stand up!!!

Even the remainers might join in...because May and her cronies,forgot democracy,plus she sold the Brexiteers out!!!!

And giving the remainers. & ,the UK a worse membership deal...!!!   Proof of  Incarnate incompetence,and you lot,are thinking

Of voting again  any group  of these wasters,to represent you.....!!!      

I also include the honourable dozo who pretend to represent the opposition...!!!!

[Guest MattP]

31 minutes ago, Legend_in_blue said:

I see she's now called it for the second week in Jan.

 

The only way to solve this mess is to lay both sides out on the table, facts not fiction, and make it compulsory for everyone to have a vote in a second referendum.  Basing the future of the country on a 1.9% difference made up of roughly 25% of the population on both sides having been told a pack of lies does no one any favours.

But you'll just get misinformation in the second as well. Remainers will still be making "predictions" on economics and guessing over things like an EU army. 

 

As for the leave side, no one will be putting forward May's deal anyway so you'll effectively be being told what's going to happen by a new Prime Minister like Raab, Boris or Javid.

 

No one can predict what the EU will look like either in 2 years let alone 10 - as Alf said the other week, we could be taking rules from the hard-right if voting patterns across the continent continue as they are.

 

I have no idea why anyone thinks a second referendum will solve anything, it will be very close so the country will still be divided, if Leave wins we still don't know how or what deal gets through parliament, if Remain wins the issue stays on the table open in parliament and we probably have to have a third referendum.

[HighPeakFox]

I haven't changed my mind. One of the most interesting conversations I had about Brexit was in Madrid on match day (ah, happy days) with a very left wing idealist, married to a Muslim, who had voted Leave. She was as far removed from the lazy stereotype of a Leave voter as you could ask for. It was very stimulating and friendly.

 

Given it has been shown how illegally procured/influenced the result was, and how much noise from our Red Top press goes against the EU, playing on our desire to be shown to be patriotic, I could not consider voting Leave. However, I do not hold any grudge against those that vote differently to me, even if I think some are stark raving mad. Just as with LCFC, I can deal with anyone making a reasonable case, but I will dismiss those that speak with hatred and division, and that goes for people that vote the same way as me too.