Brexit - Has anybody actually changed their minds?

[RODNEY FERNIO]

2 minutes ago, theessexfox said:

How is asking for more democracy undemocratic?

Because we've already had the referendum … the decision has been made .. don't you understand this ?

[wurmer]

Voted Remain, but accept the result and now actually want a no-deal Brexit.

[Realist Guy In The Room]

6 minutes ago, wurmer said:

Voted Remain, but accept the result and now actually want a no-deal Brexit.

In hindsight its a shame this isn’t how the referendum was run.  The truth is there is no short/medium term Brexit or any deal that doesn’t leave the country worse off than our position now.  So rather than try and bullshit about deals etc, they should have just said leave means no deal and then list all the consequences that come with that and actually publish the plan of how the country will cope, recover and eventually (in about 50 years as JRM said), prosper.

 

If a leave politician ends up PM after Mays  deal bombs and says, screw it.  No deal, no trade arrangements.  Flat rate dogshit WTO rules.  We’re borrowing a hundred trillion a year and investing/subsidising business in every sector until employment is at an all time high and the productivity from the country is through the roof and we’re a self sufficient economy which will take between 30-50 years.

 

I’d vote for that in a second.

[Costock_Fox]

Remain-Remain. Genuinely sick to death of hearing about it, complete **** up.

[bovril]

Just now, Costock_Fox said:

Remain-Remain. Genuinely sick to death of hearing about it, complete **** up.

So am I, but we're going to be hearing about it for years. Possibly decades.

 

As I posted earlier, I'm quite Eurosceptic. But nobody can objectively say it hasn't been a complete and utter fvck up. We have burned pretty much every bridge with our neighbours and wasted so much time and effort on something that even Brexit believers can't agree on the reasons for. We're supposed to be a pragmatic nation ffs. 

[Charl91]

Was a fairly sure remainer.

 

Now 100% sure I made the right decision, without a doubt. Would vote remain again.

[Costock_Fox]

1 minute ago, bovril said:

So am I, but we're going to be hearing about it for years. Possibly decades.

 

As I posted earlier, I'm quite Eurosceptic. But nobody can objectively say it hasn't been a complete and utter fvck up. We have burned pretty much every bridge with our neighbours and wasted so much time and effort on something that even Brexit believers can't agree on the reasons for. We're supposed to be a pragmatic nation ffs. 

Oh yeah without a doubt this won’t just disappear when we leave, Farce.

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, RODNEY FERNIO said:

The Dutch and the Irish … poorer countries have benefited enormously from being in the EC .. we haven't .

Ok my comments are probably OTT … but their sarcastic comments has irked me.  

 

The Netherlands is one of the richest countries in Europe and one of the biggest contributors to EU, per capita.

 

Ireland was pretty poor when it joined the EEC, but is now well above average and also a net contributor to EU funds.

 

The UK has been a major net contributor to EU funds, as befits one of the largest, richest nations in the EU. But surely we've benefited in all sorts of other ways, not least big increases in trade with Ireland and the Netherlands, helped by their increased wealth?

 

I might be wrong, but I think Mayofox could be British. He mentioned moving to Ireland 20+ years ago or something (can't remember exactly), so your "Paddy" jibe might be inaccurate as well as insulting in intent. I've no idea whether Vossen is Dutch, grows cannabis or smokes tulips, so cannot comment on that.   

 

 

23 minutes ago, RODNEY FERNIO said:

Because we've already had the referendum … the decision has been made .. don't you understand this ?

 

What, the 1975 referendum, you mean?

No, I know that there was a massive vote to go into Europe, but it's perfectly reasonable of parliament to have called another vote in 2016. 

 

Our elected national parliament is sovereign, the supreme democratic body of the UK. So if it were to opt for another referendum in 2019, that would be perfectly democratic.

I never wanted or expected one (and am still not sure it's a good idea), but if neither the governing party, nor parliament nor even Brexiteers can agree on any way forward, it becomes a sensible option.

 

Think of it as our sovereign British parliament taking back control.  

[Mayofox]

Alf, I was born on London Road, lived in Leicester til my early twenties. So though not a Paddy, my family have enjoyed all the benefits of living in Ireland.

The educational standards over here are very high, for example.

 

The options on the table now lead to the UK becoming a poorer place, not something anyone here in Ireland would wish to see.

 

 

[fuchsntf]

8 hours ago, MattP said:

The general consensus amongst pollsters and tellers is that those who don't vote are often the most likely to be anti-establishment - one of the reasons Leave won on a huge 72% turnout was because many came out to vote for something for the first time in years.

 

Whether that would be right this time I don't know as I think vast majority would vote the same, but Remain voters would be more enthused to come out having lost the first one - it would certainly be close and I still don't really see how it would solve anything long-term.

 

Ironically, voting for chaos is very European, they often do it in France and Italy.

And don't forget the UK....

[Paninistickers]

Lazy remainer who didn't vote and now, staunch remain.

 

I can't believe one of the very few benefits championed of this whole mess is to end free movement. For me, free movement is one of the very few freedoms/rights in life we have. And we're supposed to celebrate giving that up? Fook me

 

I recently bought a house. With my own money. ID check after bank account check after credit check and audit trails and MY solicitor who was basically more of an HMRC snooper than my representative. Where did you get this money from? That money from? Who's your employer? Where's your pay slip?.....

 

I say all that as, because, free movement means I can up sticks and piss off Poland, Hungary, Italy, Spain on a fooking whim. And no one can stop me. Until fookin brexit....then I'm at the mercy of the system and anything I do - even buy a house with my own fookin money - is subject to the system approving it.

[SouthStandUpperTier]

4 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Lazy remainer who didn't vote and now, staunch remain.

 

I can't believe one of the very few benefits championed of this whole mess is to end free movement. For me, free movement is one of the very few freedoms/rights in life we have. And we're supposed to celebrate giving that up? Fook me

 

I recently bought a house. With my own money. ID check after bank account check after credit check and audit trails and MY solicitor who was basically more of an HMRC snooper than my representative. Where did you get this money from? That money from? Who's your employer? Where's your pay slip?.....

 

I say all that as, because, free movement means I can up sticks and piss off Poland, Hungary, Italy, Spain on a fooking whim. And no one can stop me. Until fookin brexit....then I'm at the mercy of the system and anything I do - even buy a house with my own fookin money - is subject to the system approving it.

And therein lies the reason why we are in this mess.

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

The Netherlands is one of the richest countries in Europe and one of the biggest contributors to EU, per capita.

 

Ireland was pretty poor when it joined the EEC, but is now well above average and also a net contributor to EU funds.

 

The UK has been a major net contributor to EU funds, as befits one of the largest, richest nations in the EU. But surely we've benefited in all sorts of other ways, not least big increases in trade with Ireland and the Netherlands, helped by their increased wealth?

 

I might be wrong, but I think Mayofox could be British. He mentioned moving to Ireland 20+ years ago or something (can't remember exactly), so your "Paddy" jibe might be inaccurate as well as insulting in intent. I've no idea whether Vossen is Dutch, grows cannabis or smokes tulips, so cannot comment on that.   

 

 

 

What, the 1975 referendum, you mean?

No, I know that there was a massive vote to go into Europe, but it's perfectly reasonable of parliament to have called another vote in 2016. 

 

Our elected national parliament is sovereign, the supreme democratic body of the UK. So if it were to opt for another referendum in 2019, that would be perfectly democratic.

I never wanted or expected one (and am still not sure it's a good idea), but if neither the governing party, nor parliament nor even Brexiteers can agree on any way forward, it becomes a sensible option.

 

Think of it as our sovereign British parliament taking back control.  

As much as it pains me, I don’t see any other option to a referendum right now. The parliamentary arithmetic is going to cause a stalemate as probably will a referendum. The question is how or what do we ask the people, because that is where I fear the betrayal will become a reality. 3 options is a pisstake. Mays deal and remain is two sides of the same coin. How can you offer a reasonable leave option without an unprepared no deal? We are fùcked if we just crash out unprepared but what other choice do you have if you believe we should leave? 

[Mike Oxlong]

I don’t think there was ever a properly informed vote in the first place and put this down to complacency on the Remain side and misinformation from the Leavers

 

Either way, what an utter mess things are now

[Stadt]

Leave, now would vote remain.

[theessexfox]

3 hours ago, RODNEY FERNIO said:

Because we've already had the referendum … the decision has been made .. don't you understand this ?

Which definition of democracy says that once a decision has been made by the people, it can be overturned by the people under no circumstances?

[Vossen]

Moved to Portugal ? better quality Tulips & great weed

4 hours ago, RODNEY FERNIO said:

So you don't believe in democracy then Mr tulip growing cannabis addict ?

 

[Leicester_Loyal]

4 minutes ago, theessexfox said:

Which definition of democracy says that once a decision has been made by the people, it can be overturned by the people under no circumstances?

It can be overturned before we've implemented the original end result of the first referendum?

 

Another referendum would be the end of democracy in the UK.

 

If Labour were voted in at the next GE, could we have another one before they were even in power?

 

May not preparing for a no deal is a betrayal to this country, vile woman.

[theessexfox]

Just now, Leicester_Loyal said:

It can be overturned before we've implemented the original end result of the first referendum?

 

Another referendum would be the end of democracy in the UK.

 

If Labour were voted in at the next GE, could we have another one before they were even in power?

 

May not preparing for a no deal is a betrayal to this country, vile woman.

The result of the first referendum was an open-ended question with radically competing visions within the 52% of how the outcome should be delivered, it makes perfect sense for the people to decide exactly how they want Brexit implemented, or if the last two and a half years has demonstrated that leaving the EU will not bring the benefits to the country they thought it would. A referendum regarding membership of a supranational organisation and various concrete international treaties is not the same as periodic elections to a national assembly. 

[koop.]

I haven't read through the last 4 pages yet but I'm going to say it..... 

 

Boris would have sorted this shit out. It's a shambles, read his book, the guy knows what's needed. 

 

He spent a lot of time in European politics and unfortunately we were left with a remainer who reluctantly had to leave 

[Charl91]

6 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

It can be overturned before we've implemented the original end result of the first referendum?

 

Another referendum would be the end of democracy in the UK.

 

 

 

Yes, more democracy would be the end of democracy. 

 

Can't wait for the second referendum.

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

As much as it pains me, I don’t see any other option to a referendum right now. The parliamentary arithmetic is going to cause a stalemate as probably will a referendum. The question is how or what do we ask the people, because that is where I fear the betrayal will become a reality. 3 options is a pisstake. Mays deal and remain is two sides of the same coin. How can you offer a reasonable leave option without an unprepared no deal? We are fùcked if we just crash out unprepared but what other choice do you have if you believe we should leave? 

 

I struggle to see any solution that doesn't leave the country divided and at least one substantial group angry or disillusioned - and probably campaigning to have the solution reversed.

 

I tend to agree that we couldn't have a referendum just between May's deal and Remain, as the Hard Brexit section of the electorate would be alienated from the democratic process - damaging & dangerous. But the problem with offering a Hard Brexit option is that while Remain and May's Deal clearly are options (one the current status quo, the other agreed with the EU), no Hard Brexit option is currently viable - except No Deal, potentially - as none has been successfully negotiated. That's not because of obstruction by the EU, but because of May's "red line" over extra checks on trade between GB and NI.

 

Long ago, the EU made clear that they'd be happy to negotiate a Canada+ FTA, provided the Irish border issue was resolved. Rather than use the backstop, they were happy for there to be extra checks on trade crossing the Irish Sea and others inland within N. Ireland - but the DUP and some Tory Hard Brexiteers see this as an unacceptable "border in the Irish Sea". Yet N. Ireland already had some checks on such trade - and operates differently from GB in various other ways (Stormont, when it's running; different laws on gay marriage and abortion; united electricity market with the Irish Republic etc.). The idea that NI will inevitably leave the UK because of extra checks on trade crossing the Irish Sea is bollocks. It might end up reunifying with the Irish Republic in coming decades due to demographic change (pending Catholic majority in the North), but not because of extra checks on cattle and food consignments. Even then, there'd be much wariness about reunification unless it could be achieved without inter-communal strife. The Irish Republic would be in no rush for reunification if it came with a civil war in the North, not to mention the North needing subsidies, having fallen behind economically (the opposite of 30-40 years ago).

 

I'm not sure how you can say that May's deal and Remain are 2 sides of the same coin. The UK would be tied close during the transition and the backstop, if that was deployed. But the transition is probably now essential for any Brexit outcome, given the lack of preparation and lack of time. After that, it is agreed that the UK would leave the SM and CU (not the case with Remain) but the future relationship has largely yet to be negotiated - and a loose Canada+ outcome is a definite option under May's deal. The problem is that there's no parliamentary majority for it - but that's democracy. The other problem for any future deal that involves leaving the SM and CU is resolving the Irish border issue....but, to be blunt, shafting the No Surrender boys of the DUP by accepting checks on GB/NI trade would resolve it - if they can get a parliamentary majority for that. The mad thing is that the DUP doesn't even remotely speak for N. Ireland on Brexit. N. Ireland voted 56%-44% for Remain as a significant minority of Unionists supported Remain - and polls suggest support over there for Remain has grown, and that May's deal is also pretty popular, including among many Unionist-run businesses. Astonishingly, Sinn Fein is the only UK party supporting May's deal - & Varadkar was asking Sinn Fein MPs to take their seats at Westminster to support her!

 

Maybe that could be the Hard Brexit option in any referendum - Canada+ FTA & checks on trade in Irish Sea? At least it's clear that could be negotiated. Apart from No Deal (with insufficient time to prepare), no other Hard Brexit deal seems negotiable. A 3-way referendum between Remain, May's Deal & Boris/JRM Brexit would involve pitching 2 viable options against 1 that was clearly not negotiable.

 

3 options isn't necessarily a pisstake, so long as it isn't first-past-the-post. If the winning option had to gain 50%+, you could either use 3 options & single transferable vote, with the least popular option eliminated for the second stage, or you could have 2 questions: Remain v. Leave, then May's Deal v. Hard Brexit if Leave won (DavieG posted a more detailed explanation earlier). 

[Matt_Lcfc]

The problem with this thread is that some people want the benefits from being in the EU without being in it.

I wasn’t old enough to vote but I’d have votes remain. I’m pro EU for a number of reasons. It does have disadvantages, to an extent, I understand the sovereignty argument but the economic factors outweigh the disadvantages. 

Funny that this decision will affect me the most yet I didn’t get a vote 

Edited 14 December 2018 by Matt_Lcfc

[Jon the Hat]

18 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

Point of order: No they're not. We would no longer be a member of the European Union under May's deal, thus honouring the referendum's result perfectly well.

Except the bit about leaving the single market and customs union, and the taking back control bit.  Oh and not signing over our future to the EU27 whim.

apart from that great!

[Jon the Hat]

9 hours ago, Mike Oxlong said:

I don’t think there was ever a properly informed vote in the first place and put this down to complacency on the Remain side and misinformation from the Leavers

 

Either way, what an utter mess things are now

A positive vision beat negative doomsayers in light of the EU telling Cameron, and hence all of us to **** off.