WW2

[Stadt]

The depth of both World Wars is incredible, you could find out something completely new to you everyday. I’m a bit obsessed with Leicestershire’s history and only just now read about the Raider of Loughborough, a Zeppelin that killed 10 people in WWI.

[woznotwos]

Went to Berlin this xmas . Hitlers bunker is now a parking lot to a simple block of flats . Just a little sign to depict what it once was.

[Mark 'expert' Lawrenson]

9 hours ago, woznotwos said:

Went to Berlin this xmas . Hitlers bunker is now a parking lot to a simple block of flats . Just a little sign to depict what it once was.

I went a couple of years back, it’s an interesting but odd City, obviously lots of historical places to visit.

[Finnegan]

We went to the Imperial War Museum in Tokyo a couple years ago, now that was properly strange. A real mix of perspective, some of it quite fair and interesting - emphasising how the European colonial powers had no place in the Pacific, highlighting America's poor treatment of Japan forced them in to Pearl Harbour and war, etc. 

 

Some of it was openly creepy, though, like the one tiny line on Nanjing which said something like "a small group of hard-line trouble makers were disciplined" which is probably the biggest understatement in any museum ever. 

[leicsmac]

30 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

We went to the Imperial War Museum in Tokyo a couple years ago, now that was properly strange. A real mix of perspective, some of it quite fair and interesting - emphasising how the European colonial powers had no place in the Pacific, highlighting America's poor treatment of Japan forced them in to Pearl Harbour and war, etc. 

 

Some of it was openly creepy, though, like the one tiny line on Nanjing which said something like "a small group of hard-line trouble makers were disciplined" which is probably the biggest understatement in any museum ever. 

[Sol thewall Bamba]

On 08/02/2019 at 09:46, leicsmac said:

It's quite amazing how we find such horrifying times in history so fascinating and interesting, isn't it? Not to mention how such times are often a massive driver of scientific progress.

 

I wonder why that is?

For me, it's interesting becasue it's just about within living memory. 70 years really isn't that long in the grand scheme of things, to think major European powers were slugging it out that recently really interests me. Also the relatively modern military doctrines are easier to read about, WW1 was relatively crude in comparison, at least on the western front. 

[Finnegan]

10 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

Yeah exactly. 

 

Whilst I'm fond of Japan, I'm not naive, I'm well aware it has both a very distasteful military history and a very uncomfortable modern relationship with that fact that wavers from silent shame to militant denial. 

 

But I was still taken aback by the display to the point I sort of laughed abruptly and had to check myself. I hadn't really expected to see it mentioned at all, I mean unless I missed something there was zero reference to comfort women (for example) anywhere. But somehow mentioning Nanjing and then severely downplaying it to a footnote seemed worse. 

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

For me, it's interesting becasue it's just about within living memory. 70 years really isn't that long in the grand scheme of things, to think major European powers were slugging it out that recently really interests me. Also the relatively modern military doctrines are easier to read about, WW1 was relatively crude in comparison, at least on the western front. 

That's an interesting way of looking at it.

 

2 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Yeah exactly. 

 

Whilst I'm fond of Japan, I'm not naive, I'm well aware it has both a very distasteful military history and a very uncomfortable modern relationship with that fact that wavers from silent shame to militant denial. 

 

But I was still taken aback by the display to the point I sort of laughed abruptly and had to check myself. I hadn't really expected to see it mentioned at all, I mean unless I missed something there was zero reference to comfort women (for example) anywhere. But somehow mentioning Nanjing and then severely downplaying it to a footnote seemed worse. 

I'd probably have reacted similarly. I've visited the history museum in Seoul which goes into great detail (naturally) about the Japanese occupation and that was an eye-opener for me too.

 

Honestly, it's true what has been said - war doesn't determine who is right, just who is left.

[Finnegan]

Haha I've just had a quick Google and I've found the exact quote that's shown in English on the display in the museum:

 

Quote

"Chinese soldiers disguised in civilian clothes, which numbered around 4000^[47] were severely prosecuted".

 

 

Severely prosecuted that's the line that made me burst laughing

 

That's another interesting point about the museum actually, some of it was INCREDIBLY detailed and informative in a lot of languages. Other bits like this one, had a big board with several paragraphs in Japanese and just this one line in English. 

 

Very hmmmm. 

 

For those who are fortunate enough to not know what we're talking about, look up the Rape of Nanking, you can probably imagine tbh without the details. The Imperial Japanese Army completely destroyed the then Chinese capital, murdering, raping and looting leaving about 300,000 dead behind them, women and children included. 

Edited 12 February 2019 by Finnegan

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

Haha I've just had a quick Google and I've found the exact quote that's shown in English on the display in the museum:

 

 

 

 

Severely prosecuted that's the line that made me burst laughing

 

That's another interesting point about the museum actually, some of it was INCREDIBLY detailed and informative in a lot of languages. Other bits like this one, had a big board with several paragraphs in Japanese and just this one line in English. 

 

Very hmmmm. 

"Severely prosecuted" - well yeah, I suppose you could call it that.

[Detroit Blues]

Dan Carlin's "Hardcore History" podcast about Japan in WW2 is excellent. 

 

 

[Bellend Sebastian]

1 hour ago, Detroit Blues said:

Dan Carlin's "Hardcore History" podcast about Japan in WW2 is excellent. 

 

 

"Supernova in the East".

 

Cheers for the reminder, the second part's not been out long, and I've not listened to it yet.

 

The first part was great. I really like how Dan Carlin tries to get into the mindset of the participants in the subjects he covers.

 

We've heard so much about how fanatical and cruel the Japanese were in the War without ever really hearing about why that was

 

 

[Guest MattP]

On 12/02/2019 at 13:37, Finnegan said:

We went to the Imperial War Museum in Tokyo a couple years ago, now that was properly strange. A real mix of perspective, some of it quite fair and interesting - emphasising how the European colonial powers had no place in the Pacific, highlighting America's poor treatment of Japan forced them in to Pearl Harbour and war, etc. 

 

Some of it was openly creepy, though, like the one tiny line on Nanjing which said something like "a small group of hard-line trouble makers were disciplined" which is probably the biggest understatement in any museum ever. 

Interesting.

 

What's the attitude towards the battle of Singapore in Japan? Do they hold pride in the victory or play it down? 

[Sampson]

4 hours ago, Detroit Blues said:

Dan Carlin's "Hardcore History" podcast about Japan in WW2 is excellent. 

 

 

Dan Carlin is great. Ghosts of the Osfront was a fantastic series about the Eastern Front too.

[Carl the Llama]

4 hours ago, Detroit Blues said:

Dan Carlin's "Hardcore History" podcast about Japan in WW2 is excellent. 

 

 

Not as funny as I was expecting tbh.

[Vardinio'sCat]

On 08/02/2019 at 11:19, Wolfox said:

If you enjoyed that podcast

 

try reading this

 

Passchendaele: The Story of the Third Battle of Ypres 1917 https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0241952417/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_owwxCbSNFV13X

 

Lyn McDonald also did another on the Somme

 

Amazing books 

 

My grandad was at Passschdaele, he was in the Machine Gun Corps. He got a nasty shrapnel wound to the head, and was never quite the same again.

 

I have also read the book, and can confirm it is an excellent read, letting the participants speak for themselves.

[Wolfox]

5 hours ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

My grandad was at Passschdaele, he was in the Machine Gun Corps. He got a nasty shrapnel wound to the head, and was never quite the same again.

 

I have also read the book, and can confirm it is an excellent read, letting the participants speak for themselves.

It was the most brutal of a whole collection of brutal battles…

 

Small wonder you’re grandad and others were affected…

[Vardinio'sCat]

18 hours ago, Wolfox said:

It was the most brutal of a whole collection of brutal battles…

 

Small wonder you’re grandad and others were affected…

 

It's all a bit sad really, he didn't return as a particularly nice man. He was catholic Irish, and those veterans were not celebrated as returning heroes, by any means. What with drinking his healthy army pension away, and leaving his wife short of housekeeping money, he was hard to love.

 

My Gran became a recluse out of the shame, and my Mum is still bitter that she (as the youngest) was sent to the village co-op shop to ask for credit, and she is a penny pincher to this day. My Mum divorced my Dad when I was 15, and their different attitudes to money were part of the reason.

 

It is only the last few years that Mum has come to recognise that her father probably had multiple issues that directly resulted from the war, even his medical records refer to him being a 'difficult' man.

 

The psychology of both my parents families have been deeply affected by war, with my other (fathers side) anti-Nazi Austrian grandad being interred by Churchill during WW2, then deported on a ship (the Arandora Star) that was sunk by a German U-boat off Malin Head. He survived the sinking and being in the water for a long time, but succumbed to TB within a couple of years.

 

When my father was born (in 1944) my widowed grandma (whose English was pretty poor) was regarded as being unable to care for both of her boys, and my uncle was put into care in Leeds, far away from his sole parent, for nearly a year.

 

I dare say all this trauma has echoed down the generations, as it must have done in many families. One only has to look further back up the thread to the posting by the Algerian guy. It might be over 50 years ago, but you can hear the justified rage, and the personal damage, coming through loud and clear.

 

 

 

 

Edited 23 February 2019 by Vardinio'sCat

[leicsmac]

33 minutes ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

It's all a bit sad really, he didn't return as a particularly nice man. He was catholic Irish, and those veterans were not celebrated as returning heroes, by any means. What with drinking his healthy army pension away, and leaving his wife short of housekeeping money, he was hard to love.

 

My Gran became a recluse out of the shame, and my Mum is still bitter that she (as the youngest) was sent to the village co-op shop to ask for credit, and she is a penny pincher to this day. My Mum divorced my Dad when I was 15, and their different attitudes to money were part of the reason.

 

It is only the last few years that Mum has come to recognise that her father probably had multiple issues that directly resulted from the war, even his medical records refer to him being a 'difficult' man.

 

The psychology of both my parents families have been deeply affected by war, with my other (fathers side) anti-Nazi Austrian grandad being interred by Churchill during WW2, then deported on a ship (the Arandora Star) that was sunk by a German U-boat off Malin Head. He survived the sinking and being in the water for a long time, but succumbed to TB within a couple of years.

 

When my father was born (in 1944) my widowed grandma (whose English was pretty poor) was regarded as being unable to care for both of her boys, and my uncle was put into care in Leeds, far away from his sole parent, for nearly a year.

 

I dare say all this trauma has echoed down the generations, as it must have done in many families. One only has to look further back up the thread to the posting by the Algerian guy. It might be over 50 years ago, but you can hear the justified rage, and the personal damage, coming through loud and clear.

 

 

 

 

And that's the saddest part, really. War doesn't only break people in the current generation, but also does it for many of the generations that follow them.

 

I'm not saying that WW2 wasn't worth the struggle, but sometimes I think folks underestimate the cost of war.

[Wolfox]

7 hours ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

It's all a bit sad really, he didn't return as a particularly nice man. He was catholic Irish, and those veterans were not celebrated as returning heroes, by any means. What with drinking his healthy army pension away, and leaving his wife short of housekeeping money, he was hard to love.

 

My Gran became a recluse out of the shame, and my Mum is still bitter that she (as the youngest) was sent to the village co-op shop to ask for credit, and she is a penny pincher to this day. My Mum divorced my Dad when I was 15, and their different attitudes to money were part of the reason.

 

It is only the last few years that Mum has come to recognise that her father probably had multiple issues that directly resulted from the war, even his medical records refer to him being a 'difficult' man.

 

The psychology of both my parents families have been deeply affected by war, with my other (fathers side) anti-Nazi Austrian grandad being interred by Churchill during WW2, then deported on a ship (the Arandora Star) that was sunk by a German U-boat off Malin Head. He survived the sinking and being in the water for a long time, but succumbed to TB within a couple of years.

 

When my father was born (in 1944) my widowed grandma (whose English was pretty poor) was regarded as being unable to care for both of her boys, and my uncle was put into care in Leeds, far away from his sole parent, for nearly a year.

 

I dare say all this trauma has echoed down the generations, as it must have done in many families. One only has to look further back up the thread to the posting by the Algerian guy. It might be over 50 years ago, but you can hear the justified rage, and the personal damage, coming through loud and clear.

 

 

 

 

That is quite some family history…. It clearly had a huge impact on your family….  Very sad and not just for the immediately impacted generation…

 

All manner of changes to our societies general psychology has changed…. Stoicism is no longer a thing as we aren’t required to deploy it as a coping mechanism when when things are grim as it’s simply not that bad in our days (comparatively)

 

My grandads claim to fame in WW2 was that he didn’t have to have wear army issue boots as he, successfully, claimed it impeded his ability to play the piano…

 

The other grandad was quite affected by it all…. He was from a poor background in Burnley and made it to Captain…. He had to send Polish refugees back to Poland knowing that they’d almost certainly be killed at the end of the journey…. It really stayed with him…. He got a medal for preventing a munitions dump being blown up too…. I spoke to him about both the 1st and 2nd world war a lot as a young boy (I wish I’d recorded some of our chats)

[Vardinio'sCat]

On 23/02/2019 at 03:14, leicsmac said:

And that's the saddest part, really. War doesn't only break people in the current generation, but also does it for many of the generations that follow them.

 

I'm not saying that WW2 wasn't worth the struggle, but sometimes I think folks underestimate the cost of war.

 

I couldn't agree more, WW2 is good example of a war that was going to be difficult to avoid, but the crude casualty figures don't really represent the suffering of the families of the combatants, or indeed the families of affected non-combatants.

 

I read that when some of the pals brigades were virtually wiped out in the early years of WW1, the postmen would be followed on their rounds by curtains being pulled in house after house, as the families opened their letters and immediately went into mourning.

 

What must those postmen have felt, guilt for bringing such horror to hundreds of families? guilt for not being in the front line themselves? and how did they look their neighbours in the eye, as they did their daily job. Many people would have been frightend every time a letter came through the door.

 

War is a terrible thing, and we are lucky to live in a more peaceful world than our forebears.

 

 

 

[Vardinio'sCat]

20 hours ago, Wolfox said:

That is quite some family history…. It clearly had a huge impact on your family….  Very sad and not just for the immediately impacted generation…

 

All manner of changes to our societies general psychology has changed…. Stoicism is no longer a thing as we aren’t required to deploy it as a coping mechanism when when things are grim as it’s simply not that bad in our days (comparatively)

 

My grandads claim to fame in WW2 was that he didn’t have to have wear army issue boots as he, successfully, claimed it impeded his ability to play the piano…

 

The other grandad was quite affected by it all…. He was from a poor background in Burnley and made it to Captain…. He had to send Polish refugees back to Poland knowing that they’d almost certainly be killed at the end of the journey…. It really stayed with him…. He got a medal for preventing a munitions dump being blown up too…. I spoke to him about both the 1st and 2nd world war a lot as a young boy (I wish I’d recorded some of our chats)

 

Yeah, the Poles had a really tough time during and after the war. Afaik, they weren't invited to the British victory parade because it was such a political hot potato. I have a vague idea a similar thing happened to the Cossacks being sent back to Russia.

 

I also read somewhere that not all that Poles went (or got sent) home in the end, and there were camps in Britain, full of Poles for decades after the war. Here is a wiki i just found about it, it seems like the policy was reversed fairly quickly. It must have been a very bitter experience for your grandad though, because the Poles were held in high regard for their skill and courage.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Resettlement_Act_1947

 

I think quite a few Poles ended up in Leicester, funnily enough. I certainly recall some kids at school had Polish names.

[Wolfox]

3 hours ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

Yeah, the Poles had a really tough time during and after the war. Afaik, they weren't invited to the British victory parade because it was such a political hot potato. I have a vague idea a similar thing happened to the Cossacks being sent back to Russia.

 

I also read somewhere that not all that Poles went (or got sent) home in the end, and there were camps in Britain, full of Poles for decades after the war. Here is a wiki i just found about it, it seems like the policy was reversed fairly quickly. It must have been a very bitter experience for your grandad though, because the Poles were held in high regard for their skill and courage.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Resettlement_Act_1947

 

I think quite a few Poles ended up in Leicester, funnily enough. I certainly recall some kids at school had Polish names.

Yes…. I’d go as far as to say that it haunted him…. In a war you follow orders though…

 

yes…. I knew a two or three second generation Polish people growing up….

 

I also worked with a guy in the early 90’s at the Leicester City bus depot opposite Abbey Park who was Ukrainian and he admitted to fighting with the Nazis…. It was a complicated time…

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_collaboration_with_Nazi_Germany

 

(they weren’t that keen on the Russians!

 

Both Polish and Czech pilots contributed greatly during the Battle of Britain 

 

We didn’t get everything right did we?

[Vardinio'sCat]

13 hours ago, Wolfox said:

Yes…. I’d go as far as to say that it haunted him…. In a war you follow orders though…

 

yes…. I knew a two or three second generation Polish people growing up….

 

I also worked with a guy in the early 90’s at the Leicester City bus depot opposite Abbey Park who was Ukrainian and he admitted to fighting with the Nazis…. It was a complicated time…

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_collaboration_with_Nazi_Germany

 

(they weren’t that keen on the Russians!

 

Both Polish and Czech pilots contributed greatly during the Battle of Britain 

 

We didn’t get everything right did we?

 

Wow, that must have been weird. I guess fear of the Russians would be a mitigating factor for him.

 

I saw a thing last week about the Germans still paying pensions on the sly, to those regarded as collaborators in Belgium and the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/21/germany-still-paying-pensions-to-wartime-nazi-collaborators

 

 

We certainly didn't get everything right back then, I still tense when listening to Churchill being elevated to sainthood, but tbf the pressure of events must have been enormous.

[Wolfox]

14 hours ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

Wow, that must have been weird. I guess fear of the Russians would be a mitigating factor for him.

 

I saw a thing last week about the Germans still paying pensions on the sly, to those regarded as collaborators in Belgium and the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/21/germany-still-paying-pensions-to-wartime-nazi-collaborators

 

 

We certainly didn't get everything right back then, I still tense when listening to Churchill being elevated to sainthood, but tbf the pressure of events must have been enormous.

Ukraine has quite a different outlook on Russia…. They basically felt colonised and picked the side that was against Russia as opposed to being pro Nazi (if that makes sense)…. I was in Kiev the final year that it was still part of the USSR…. They had a big statue celebrating Russian and Ukrainian unity - I have a picture of me sat on part of it (I got shouted at!) - I very much doubt it still exits!

 

that is mental regarding the pensions…. The Germans have got most things right in relation their handling (often very sensitively) to what happened in WW2 - note the Jewish holocaust Memorial 

 

i can only guess it was some technocratic thing?

 

A whole other conversation regarding Churchill…. You often hear the same naritive regarding Galipoli and sending in the soldiers against the Welsh minors etc. But, there are stories behind the stories…. I’m a big fan (despite hike being a Tory!)…. He was a genius leader and was fundamental to repelling the ferocious Nazi peril - our debt to him is huge…

 

Noted - based on modern sensitivities he did drop the odd boo boo!