WW2

[Vardinio'sCat]

4 hours ago, Wolfox said:

Ukraine has quite a different outlook on Russia…. They basically felt colonised and picked the side that was against Russia as opposed to being pro Nazi (if that makes sense)…. I was in Kiev the final year that it was still part of the USSR…. They had a big statue celebrating Russian and Ukrainian unity - I have a picture of me sat on part of it (I got shouted at!) - I very much doubt it still exits!

 

that is mental regarding the pensions…. The Germans have got most things right in relation their handling (often very sensitively) to what happened in WW2 - note the Jewish holocaust Memorial 

 

i can only guess it was some technocratic thing?

 

A whole other conversation regarding Churchill…. You often hear the same naritive regarding Galipoli and sending in the soldiers against the Welsh minors etc. But, there are stories behind the stories…. I’m a big fan (despite hike being a Tory!)…. He was a genius leader and was fundamental to repelling the ferocious Nazi peril - our debt to him is huge…

 

Noted - based on modern sensitivities he did drop the odd boo boo!

 

 

 

The subtleties of how things played out in different nations is pretty mind blowing, context is almost everything.

 

It was always said the Germans loved a bit of paperwork, but something obviously slipped through the net. Something to do with a treaty signed in 45 which didn't invalidate a previous agreement, I glazed over after that.  I have jewish(ish) relatives who have lived in Germany for the last 20 years or so, having fled Russia when the wall came down, which says a lot about how the times have changed.

 

Im(somewhat biased)ho, Churchill was a man of his time who had some really important moments when he was brilliant, and others when he definitely wasn't. I have read that his personal staff 'managed' him, and often argued against him (as many good political staff will do), so that the wilder decisions he could have made never saw the light of day. Hurrah for democracy! I've got no problem with seeing him as a war hero (with a fine rhetorical flourish), but the over-simplified character of the flag-waving nostalgia is a bit tough for me. He lost the election directly after the war for many reasons, but he certainly wasn't seen as perfect by those who lived through it.

 

Anyway, I could bang on for ages about Churchill, partly because of the direct connection with my grandparents struggles as 'enemy aliens', and because my background makes me slightly allergic to the point when patriotism turns into nationalism. But I still give him due credit for those key moments, when the nations fate was in the balance, and he held the line against the defeatism that was stinking out some of the posher parts of the establishment.

 

Sorry if any of that seems a bit begrudging or churlish, as I have enjoyed our exchage. Funnily enough, moaning on about Churchill isn't usually a great way to endear yourself to a proud Englishman.

 

Edited 25 February 2019 by Vardinio'sCat

[Wolfox]

4 minutes ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

The subtleties of how things played out in different nations is pretty mind blowing, context is almost everything.

 

It was always said the Germans loved a bit of paperwork, but something obviously slipped through the net. Something to do with a treaty signed in 45 which didn't invalidate a previous agreement, I glazed over after that.  I have jewish(ish) relatives who have lived in Germany for the last 20 years or so, having fled Russia when the wall came down, which says a lot about how the times have changed.

 

Im(somewhat biased)ho, Churchill was a man of his time who had some really important moments when he was brilliant, and others when he definitely wasn't. I have read that his personal staff 'managed' him, and often argued against him (as many good political staff will do), so that the wilder decisions he could have made never saw the light of day. Hurrah for democracy! I've got no problem with seeing him as a war hero (with a fine rhetorical flourish), but the over-simplified character of the flag-waving nostalgia is a bit tough for me. He lost the election directly after the war for many reasons, but he certainly wasn't seen as perfect by those who lived through it.

 

Anyway, I could bang on for ages about Churchill, partly because of the direct connection with my grandparents struggles as 'enemy aliens', and because my background makes me slightly allergic to the point when patriotism turns into nationalism. But I still give him due credit for those key moments, when the nations fate was in the balance, and he held the line against the defeatism that was stinking out some of the posher parts of the establishment.

 

Sorry if any of that seems a bit begrudging or churlish, as I have enjoyed our exchage. Funnily enough, moaning about Churchill isn't usually a great way to endear yourself to a proud Englishman.

 

Ha…. If you knew my real politics - I may have come across as a flag waving Uber patriot - which is not me !!!

 

Point taken, especially the way ‘enemy aliens’ were treated…. It’s more than an inconvenient byline when reviewing his legacy…. Difficult desiscions were made with the right intentions with troubling consequences (which they were aware of and didn’t respond well too)….

 

I am still a fan as I am also a pragmatist…. His positive contribution is unparalleled by any other political leader I can think of in our countries history…. We shouldn’t sweep the less admirable stuff under the carpet and his contribution should always be seen in its full context good and bad

 

I often work with Germans…. An interesting bunch…. I find them quite charming in the main!  They all love a good process!

 

 

[Vardinio'sCat]

Just now, Wolfox said:

Ha…. If you knew my real politics - I may have come across as a flag waving Uber patriot - which is not me !!!

 

Point taken, especially the way ‘enemy aliens’ were treated…. It’s more than an inconvenient byline when reviewing his legacy…. Difficult desiscions were made with the right intentions with troubling consequences (which they were aware of and didn’t respond well too)….

 

I am still a fan as I am also a pragmatist…. His positive contribution is unparalleled by any other political leader I can think of in our countries history…. We shouldn’t sweep the less admirable stuff under the carpet and his contribution should always be seen in its full context good and bad

 

I often work with Germans…. An interesting bunch…. I find them quite charming in the main!  They all love a good process!

 

 

 

I think the unparalleled achievements bit is fair, and I think the modern informed view of Churchill is viewing him in the round, as a human being.

 

I have a soft spot for Henning Wehn, the first time I saw him he had a stop-watch to time himself, and some brilliant stuff about the German view of work.

 

Just watching Channel 4 news discussing German and British views on the war, didn't catch the British historian they talked to, but he was implying that some of our misconceptions about WW2 are still having negative effects today.

 

 

 

 

[Wolfox]

8 minutes ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

I think the unparalleled achievements bit is fair, and I think the modern informed view of Churchill is viewing him in the round, as a human being.

 

I have a soft spot for Henning Wehn, the first time I saw him he had a stop-watch to time himself, and some brilliant stuff about the German view of work.

 

Just watching Channel 4 news discussing German and British views on the war, didn't catch the British historian they talked to, but he was implying that some of our misconceptions about WW2 are still having negative effects today.

 

 

 

 

I think it’s the way anyone or any institution should be viewed…. Unless your into cults!

 

Henning Wehn is hilarious…. I loved his joke about the mute German boy being brought up the British…. Hysterical (I could only find this link - so not great)

 

 

At least we don’t sing two world wars and World Cup doo dah anymore…. Or do we?

[Stadt]

Sir Alanbrooke deserves more recognition 

[foxfanazer]

WW2 fascinates me which is probably the wrong terminology considering the atrocities. Would like to learn a lot more about what happened

[Vardinio'sCat]

On 26/02/2019 at 00:30, Stadt said:

Sir Alanbrooke deserves more recognition 

 

I think this true, from my limited reading on the subject. Because Churchill had good people around him who would stand up to him if necessary, he couldn't disappear into the deluded dream that engulfed his greatest adversary.

 

[Vardinio'sCat]

 

One book I would like to flag up is Blitzed: Drugs in the Third Riech.

 

I thought it slightly overplayed it's hand, but overall it was very interesting. If there is anything worse than a Nazi (in popular culture), it's a Nazi on crystal meth!

 

https://cen.acs.org/articles/95/i12/Blitzed-author-explains-Nazi-Germanys-drug-problem.html

 

'Adolf Hitler’s brand of white supremacy wasn’t just about racial purity. The leader of Germany’s Nazi Party during the Third Reich also advocated purity of mind and body, often boasting about his vegetarianism and teetotaler status. As it turns out, Hitler was not at all intoxicant-free, and neither were the German soldiers under his command.

In the book “Blitzed: Drugs in the Third Reich,” author Norman Ohler chronicles the rampant and strategic use of methamphetamine by Germany’s armed forces in World War II. For example, some 35 million methamphetamine pills were delivered to the German armed forces in the spring and summer of 1940 to aid their invasion of France, Holland, and Belgium. And even though Hitler wasn’t a meth user himself—he probably tried it only once—he received regular doses of steroids, the opioid oxycodone, cocaine, and even injections of tissue extracts from slaughterhouse animals.'

 

Thank god Churchill had a better doctor than Adolf.

 

[Sol thewall Bamba]

Always dive back into the subject around this time of year. The history of D-Day is phenomenal and the fact the majority of people are so poorly educated on the subject is a disgrace. 

 

Pegasus Bridge and Point du Hoc are fascinating, outrageously daring operations and I'm so glad I've been able to visit both. 

 

Does anyone have any stories of relatives' involvement? My Dad's Dad came ashore on I think Gold beach shortly after the initial landing with the 7th Royal Tank Regiment and my Mum's Dad was offshore with his Commando unit, not sure he actually went ashore during the day. 

[Bellend Sebastian]

The Bletchley Park Twitter account is tweeting decoded German enigma messages from D Day in 'real time' (albeit 75 years on), which makes pretty interesting reading

[ozleicester]

[leicsmac]

If you look at what it cost each nation proportionally, both economically and in terms of lost people, then the Russians paid more in terms of money and lives than either the US or the UK. The UK paid massively economically and significantly in terms of manpower, and the US paid proportionally less in terms of both.

 

Of course, the US contributed the most economically to the war effort, but that was because they had the money available to create and spend.

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

25 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

I've no idea about us versus the Americans.  Guess they would have more resources?  I would have thought Russia contributed the most lives maybe?

 

Can imagine the French would be quite sulky about being bailed out by us after their capitulation

[Heathrow fox]

For every American life there were 50 Soviets dead.I saw a stat the other day that a boy born anywhere in the USSR in 1924 I think?Only had a 1 in 5 chance of seeing their 21st birthday.More people were killed in Leningrad than the total UK USA war dead combined.Thats including civilians,is another crazy stat.

[Benguin]

Imagin being poised up against a dune at The Normandy beaches, the tides coming in and machine gun fire and artillery shells are raining down. You’ve just spent a few hours negotiating across a vast beach watching vast numbers of your comrades die horrible deaths. You likely have shrapnel embedded in your body. Utter heroes, the lot of them.

[leicsmac]

11 hours ago, Heathrow fox said:

For every American life there were 50 Soviets dead.I saw a stat the other day that a boy born anywhere in the USSR in 1924 I think?Only had a 1 in 5 chance of seeing their 21st birthday.More people were killed in Leningrad than the total UK USA war dead combined.Thats including civilians,is another crazy stat.

To me it shows how different the Eastern Front was compared to the Western one.

 

The Western Front was brutal, but broadly speaking when it came to the German, French, British and American forces the rules of war were largely followed. The Eastern Front had no such niceties; the Nazis stipulated from the start that their intent was the extermination of the Slavic populace and as such the Russians gave no quarter because they knew they would be shown none.

 

The end result of that kind of ideological absolutism on both sides? Slaughterhouse.

Edited 7 June 2019 by leicsmac

[leicsmac]

If this flies a little too close to the Sun for peoples tastes on this thread I'll remove it, but I think it's an important message that often gets lost.

 

[Alf Bentley]

Excellent article about D-Day in context here: https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2019/06/month-two-d-days

 

Sets D-Day in a wider, longer-term context:

- years of struggle to maintain Atlantic supply lines;

- build-up of men/equipment in England;

- detailed level of preparation for D-Day;

- relations between Allies;

- the true nature of much of the intelligence work at Bletchley Park;

- Soviet actions in Norway & coordinated mass attack on the Eastern front;  

- the difficult progress in Normandy after the successful landings etc.

 

Some or all of this may be familiar to those who've studied WW2 in detail (I haven't)......if not, a fascinating, excellent article.

[steveherbe]

On 06/06/2019 at 10:09, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Always dive back into the subject around this time of year. The history of D-Day is phenomenal and the fact the majority of people are so poorly educated on the subject is a disgrace. 

 

Pegasus Bridge and Point du Hoc are fascinating, outrageously daring operations and I'm so glad I've been able to visit both. 

 

Does anyone have any stories of relatives' involvement? My Dad's Dad came ashore on I think Gold beach shortly after the initial landing with the 7th Royal Tank Regiment and my Mum's Dad was offshore with his Commando unit, not sure he actually went ashore during the day. 

Juno beach I think mate, Courselles Sur mer. Spent his first night ashore at Beny Sur mer. Went in with the Canadians for some reason, shame he's not still around to ask.

[FoxesDeb]

7 minutes ago, steveherbe said:

Juno beach I think mate, Courselles Sur mer. Spent his first night ashore at Beny Sur mer. Went in with the Canadians for some reason, shame he's not still around to ask.

We visited Juno beach last year, very moving looking out onto the beach just trying to imagine what it must have been like. The photos below were taken at Juno, the monument is pretty breathtaking 

[Mark 'expert' Lawrenson]

Brought a tear to my eye listening to a D Day veteran give his account of what happened, a friend died in his arms, shells coming over them from the battleships behind, and bullets coming from the Germans in front, true heroes fighting for their country, I just can’t imagine what it would of been like.

[ithuriel]