Also in the news

[Alf Bentley]

9 hours ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Can’t really see how a harder Brexit could be forced through. The EU won’t reopen the backstop and the only alternative appears to be no deal and that is extremely unpopular in Parliament.

 

I agree that it seems unlikely....but so does every other possible outcome: Soft Brexit, No Deal, referendum, general election etc.

Yet one or other unlikely outcome will have to happen - and my guess is that the October cliff edge will be more real than the March & April ones were, so it will probably happen within months.

 

Although No Deal is extremely unpopular, it would still happen in October if the UK has approved no other solution and the EU doesn't want to extend again.

 

As for a negotiated Hard Brexit, the numbers haven't been there for it so far - but will that inevitably remain the case?

A new Tory leader would have greater powers of persuasion than May, as everyone knows she's on her way out. A more Brexity leader, perhaps one promising a Canada-type future relationship, would have more influence over the ERG and could persuade a lot of them to hold their noses and accept the backstop....they'd then be just a few votes short of getting May's deal through. The ERG must know that, as things stand, they run the risk of "losing their Brexit" to Soft Brexit, a referendum or a Corbyn Govt. If you add to that the likelihood of the Tories getting a drubbing in the Euro elections, that could focus a few minds on the need to get a deal done so that the party remains a viable electoral force.

 

There's also the outsider option of the Tories shafting the DUP and accepting a border in the Irish Sea alongside a Canada-style FTA-only future relationship - Hard Brexit without a hard border or a backstop. It would involve changing the Withdrawal Agreement but in a way that the EU previously said that it would accept, the Republic of Ireland would accept and that wouldn't significantly impact other EU nations. How much do the Tory Right really care about loyalty to the DUP (who only represent a minority in NI)? Do they care enough to sacrifice their Brexit project, the love of their life for some, just to avoid a slightly looser relationship between GB and NI? Rees-Mogg and various others who had sworn loyalty to the DUP defected to support May's deal last time out....

 

Granted, a Tory shift towards Hard Brexit could just as easily lead to the opposite outcome: previously loyal Tory moderates holding their noses and accepting a Parliament-led Soft Brexit or a Referendum, rather than accept No Deal or Canada....I just wouldn't rule Hard Brexit out yet. One or other currently "unlikely" outcome is going to happen....

[davieG]

Council elections voter ID trial: What you need to know

Voters in some parts of the country will need ID when they go to the polling stations
Voters in 10 areas of England will have to bring identity documents with them to the polling station in next month's council elections.

The pilot for the vote on 2 May follows a trial in five areas in 2018, which saw hundreds of people refused a ballot paper.

The government is testing the scheme to combat potential voter fraud.

Critics said the scheme would deny people their democratic right and was unnecessary because fraud is low.

 

What is the voter ID trial?
The government said it was part of an ongoing process to reduce the risk of voter fraud and ensure vote security.

Some councils will ask for photo ID, such as a driving licence. Some will ask for a mix of photo and non-photo ID, while some will accept polling cards.

In March, the High Court ruled the scheme was lawful following a legal challenge by campaigner Neil Coughlan from Essex, who argued it would prevent people voting.

Some voters will be allowed to use their poll cards as ID

In Broxtowe, Craven, Derby, North Kesteven and Braintree, voters will have to show either one piece of photo ID or two forms of non-photo ID.

In Mid Sussex, Watford and North West Leicestershire, people will have to bring their polling cards or photo ID.

Voters in Pendle and Woking will only be able to show photo ID at the polling station to be given a ballot paper.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47895033

[Guest MattP]

If you think the candidates are dodgy for the European Elections over here then check out Italy....

 

[Alf Bentley]

39 minutes ago, MattP said:

If you think the candidates are dodgy for the European Elections over here then check out Italy....

 

 

Nice.....though that poster looks amendable by opposing graffiti artists.... "Ciao Mussolini"?

 

Maybe Max Mosley could relaunch his political career? But he's been involved with both Tories and Labour in the past, so which whip would he take? 

 

Such a shame there are no little Hitlers out there to make up the party.....well, no little Hitlers actually named Hitler.

[Guest MattP]

Anyone on the early 2/1 on Brexit Party to win the European elections, enjoy.

 

That's with barely any publicity as well.

Edited 17 April 2019 by MattP

[AKCJ]

19 minutes ago, MattP said:

Anyone on the early 2/1 on Brexit Party to win the European elections, enjoy.

 

That's with barely any publicity as well.

It'll be interesting to see the turnout should be partake in these elections.

[Carl the Llama]

21 minutes ago, MattP said:

Anyone on the early 2/1 on Brexit Party to win the European elections, enjoy.

 

That's with barely any publicity as well.

Lol if that's accurate we really are a dense bunch, aren't we?

[Guest MattP]

7 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

It'll be interesting to see the turnout should be partake in these elections.

I think it was about 45% last time out bur I'm not completely sure.

 

UKIP won it with 27% last time so if the Brexit party can match that we'll almost certainly be sending more anti-EU MEP'S to the parliament.

 

4 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Lol if that's accurate we really are a dense bunch, aren't we?

Depends on what your basis is for your vote I suppose doesn't it.

 

Who do you think a Eurosceptic should vote for in this election?

[AKCJ]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

I think it was about 45% last time out bur I'm not completely sure.

 

UKIP won it with 27% last time so if the Brexit party can match that we'll almost certainly be sending more anti-EU MEP'S to the parliament.

Yeah but the vote meant something last time.

[Guest MattP]

5 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

Yeah but the vote meant something last time.

Given the anti-EU surge across the continent it could mean more this time.

 

Although ironically strong polling like this probably makes it more likely the Tory and Labour MP's do vote through a deal to avoid it.

[Guest MattP]

It's like the Conservatives are on a suicide mission.

 

In the North West the first/top selection is someone who wants to revoke or have a second referendum.

[purpleronnie]

It's weird Brexit seems to have revitalized the electorate, yet I feel more disillusioned than I ever have, I doubt I'll vote at all.

[Carl the Llama]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

Depends on what your basis is for your vote I suppose doesn't it.

Not really, unless the only thing you're voting for is the chance to give a shameless hypocrite who freely employs racist rhetoric another chance to spit in the face of democracy for free money instead of showing up to committee meetings to represent his people's best interests. 

 

3 hours ago, MattP said:

Who do you think a Eurosceptic should vote for in this election?

Literally anybody except the greens. 

[Guest MattP]

23 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Not really, unless the only thing you're voting for is the chance to give a shameless hypocrite who freely employs racist rhetoric another chance to spit in the face of democracy for free money instead of showing up to committee meetings to represent his people's best interests. 

All that isn't really an issue though as Brexit voters don't even want us in that parliament, I want them there to cause disruption and I couldn't care less if they show up to meetings or not - some of the Brexit party candidates (Toby Young) have also said they will send every penny of the salary to British charities.

 

Fact is as a Leave voter you have the choice of Farage's Brexit party or Batten's UKIP - the choice in that given the latter is now edging towards the far-right is clear. 

[Carl the Llama]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

All that isn't really an issue though as Brexit voters don't even want us in that parliament, I want them there to cause disruption and I couldn't care less if they show up to meetings or not - some of the Brexit party candidates (Toby Young) have also said they will send every penny of the salary to British charities.

 

Fact is as a Leave voter you have the choice of Farage's Brexit party or Batten's UKIP - the choice in that given the latter is now edging towards the far-right is clear. 

...or Corbyn's labour... or May's "democratic mandate" tories.  Assuming you don't want to vote like an extremist nutjob

[Buce]

7 minutes ago, MattP said:

All that isn't really an issue though as Brexit voters don't even want us in that parliament, I want them there to cause disruption and I couldn't care less if they show up to meetings or not - some of the Brexit party candidates (Toby Young) have also said they will send every penny of the salary to British charities.

 

Fact is as a Leave voter you have the choice of Farage's Brexit party or Batten's UKIP - the choice in that given the latter is now edging towards the far-right is clear. 

1

 

Edging towards?

 

How much further do they have to go before they reach your definition of far-right?

[Guest MattP]

11 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

...or Corbyn's labour... or May's "democratic mandate" tories.  Assuming you don't want to vote like an extremist nutjob

May's Tories haven't delivered Brexit, Corbyn's Labour is overwhelmingly supported and represented by Remain.

No one who is serious about leaving should be voting for those.

 

Although I could understand it if it's to get Hannan or Kamal in.

 

Voting for the Brexit party is not extreme at all, the only extremist votes are UKIP and the Greens.

 

7 minutes ago, Buce said:

Edging towards?

 

How much further do they have to go before they reach your definition of far-right?

Well they would have to have a wide range of policies that subscribe to that, an authoritarian instinct, removal of certain democratic rights and freedoms, censorship etc 

 

At the minute it seems to be pretty much based on a hatred of Islam - a lot of other policy is pretty left wing. 

 

But hatred and discrimination of a certain religion doesn't instantly qualify you as far right - as governments in Burma, China, Nigeria etc shows

[ousefox]

5 hours ago, MattP said:

Anyone on the early 2/1 on Brexit Party to win the European elections, enjoy.

 

That's with barely any publicity as well.

I guess there's a bit of first mover advantage there for Farage. I think a lot of people will be waiting for Labour to firm up their party policy on a second ref in their manifesto.

 

Remainers have done a shocking job at any joined up approach for these elections so far. I know it's only a short space of time but this is going to be perceived as an opinion poll which could really hurt their cause.

[Carl the Llama]

11 minutes ago, MattP said:

May's Tories haven't delivered Brexit, Corbyn's Labour is overwhelmingly supported and represented by Remain.

No one who is serious about leaving should be voting for those.

You've convinced me.  If UKIP and Brexit don't pull in a cumulative >50% of the vote then we should treat it as a democratic mandate to rescind A50 immediately.  

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, ousefox said:

I guess there's a bit of first mover advantage there for Farage. I think a lot of people will be waiting for Labour to firm up their party policy on a second ref in their manifesto.

 

Remainers have done a shocking job at any joined up approach for these elections so far. I know it's only a short space of time but this is going to be perceived as an opinion poll which could really hurt their cause.

This is for the Euros so probably won't be a change in Labour policy.

 

"Change UK" have been unbelievable shocking, took them 7 weeks to register a name, still haven't got a logo, no campaigning and just seem intent on talking to people in Westminster. Within 3 weeks Farage has registered a party, logo, announced candidates and already held a series if rallies in different parts of the country.

 

Then they wonder why he has success at these things. If Soubry, Allen, Leslie, Umanna etc didn't have the access to safe seats they couldn't have won a raffle.

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

You've convinced me.  If UKIP and Brexit don't pull in a cumulative >50% of the vote then we should treat it as a democratic mandate to rescind A50 immediately.  

Haha very good.

 

I suppose if we assume the Tories and Labour are still committed to Brexit (officially they are) I can now count the leave vote polling at 71%. ?

[Carl the Llama]

25 minutes ago, MattP said:

Haha very good.

 

I suppose if we assume the Tories and Labour are still committed to Brexit (officially they are) I can now count the leave vote polling at 71%. ?

Or just accept that it can't realistically be treated as a single-issue ballot, now if only there were some way we could have a 'vote' of sorts that would signify how 'people' feel... Crazy I know, it'll never happen.

[Grebfromgrebland]

This is a creepy version of Facebook or Instagram likes having a direct effect on your real life and that it your family.

 

For any fans of Black Mirror this is just like an episode of that!

 

 

 

China has started ranking citizens with a creepy 'social credit' system — here's what you can do wrong, and the embarrassing, demeaning ways they can punish you

•  
• Alexandra Ma 
• Oct 29, 2018, 12:06 PM

   

An internet cafe in Wuhan, China. REUTERS/Stringer

 

• China plans to rank all its citizens based on their "social credit" by 2020.
• People can be rewarded or punished according to their scores.
• Like private financial credit scores, a person's social scores can move up and down according to their behavior.
• At the moment the system is piecemeal - some are run by city councils, while others are scored by private tech platforms that hold personal data.
• Scroll down to see how you can be punished or rewarded.

The Chinese state is setting up a vast ranking system that will monitor the behavior of its enormous population, and rank them all based on their "social credit."

The "social credit system," first announced in 2014, aims to reinforce the idea that "keeping trust is glorious and breaking trust is disgraceful," according to a government document.

The program is due to be fully operational nationwide by 2020, but is being piloted for millions of people across the country already. The scheme will be mandatory.

At the moment the system is piecemeal - some are run by city councils, others are scored by private tech platforms which hold personal data.

Like private credit scores, a person's social score can move up and down depending on their behavior. The exact methodology is a secret - but examples of infractions include bad driving, smoking in non-smoking zones, buying too many video games and posting fake news online.

NOW WATCH: How 'leftover' women in China are changing its culture >>

1. Banning you from flying or getting the train.

REUTERS/Stringer

China has already started punishing people by restricting their travel.

Nine million people with low scores have been blocked from buying tickets for domestic flights, Channel News Asia reported in March, citing official statistics.

They can also clamp down on luxury options - three million people are barred from getting business-class train tickets.

The eventual system will punish bad passengers specifically. Potential misdeeds include trying to ride with no ticket, loitering in front of boarding gates, or smoking in no-smoking areas.

 

2. Throttling your internet speeds.

photosteve101 / Flickr, CC

This is according to Rachel Botsman, an author who published part of her book on tech security on Wired last year. The exact mechanics aren't clear yet.

According to Foreign Policy, credit systems monitor whether people pay bills on time, much like financial credit trackers - but also ascribe a moral dimension.

Other mooted punishable offences include spending too long playing video games, wasting money on frivolous purchases and posting on social media.

Spreading fake news, specifically about terrorist attacks or airport security, will also be punishable offences.

 

3. Banning you — or your kids — from the best schools.

CHANDAN KHANNA/AFP/Getty Images

17 people who refused to carry out military service last year were barred from enrolling in higher education, applying for high school, or continuing their studies, Beijing News reported.

In July, a Chinese university denied an incoming student his spot because the student's father had a bad social credit score.

 

4. Stopping you getting the best jobs.

Wikipedia

"Trust-breaking" individuals would also be banned from doing management jobs in state-owned firms and big banks.

Some crimes, like fraud and embezzlement, would also have a big effect on social credit, Botsman reported.

 

5. Keeping you out of the best hotels.

James Jin/Flickr

People who refused military service were also banned from some holidays and hotels - showing that vacation plans are fair game too.

The regime rewards people here as well as punishes them.

People with good scores can speed up travel applications to places like Europe, Botsman said.

An unidentified woman in Beijing also told the BBC in 2015 that she was able to book a hotel without having to pay a cash deposit because she had a good score.

 

6. Getting your dog taken away.

REUTERS/Stringer

The eastern Chinese city of Jinan started enforcing a social credit system for dog owners in 2017, whereby pet owners get points deducted if the dog is walked without a leash or causes public disturbances.

Those who lost all their points had their dogs confiscated and had to take a test on regulations required for pet ownership.

Read more: Chinese dog owners are being assigned a social credit score to keep them in check - and it seems to be working

 

7. Being publicly named as a bad citizen.

REUTERS/Fred Dufour/Pool

Naming and shaming is another tactic available. A a 2016 government noticeencourages companies to consult the blacklist before hiring people or giving them contracts.

However, people will be notified by the courts before they are added to the list, and are allowed to appeal against the decision within ten days of receiving the notification.

It's not clear when the list will start to be implemented.

 

A prototype blacklist already exists, and has been used to punish people.

The scrolling list on the left shows individual's names alongside partially redacted ID numbers, while the one on the right shows company names.

Li Xiaolin, a lawyer who was placed on the list in 2015, found himself unable to purchase plane tickets home while on a work trip, Human Rights Watch reported. He also couldn't apply for credit cards.

Source: Chinese Supreme People's Court

 

This video, posted by freelance journalist James O'Malley, shows an announcement on a bullet train from Beijing to Shanghai warning people not to misbehave — or else their "behavior will be recorded in individual credit information system."

Read more: A creepy video shows how China warns its citizens to behave or get punished by its nationwide social credit system

 

There is also a list for good citizens — that will reportedly get you more matches on dating websites.

Baihe

The BBC said that Baihe, China's biggest dating site, is boosting the profiles of good citizens.

 

They can also get discounts on energy bills, rent things without deposits, and get better interest rates at banks.

Andy Zwikel

These perks were available to people in Rongcheng, eastern China, whose city council rolled out a social credit system for its citizens and was profiled by Foreign Policy.

 

Despite the creepiness of the system — Human Rights Watch called it "chilling," while Botsman called it "a futuristic vision of Big Brother out of control" — some citizens say it's making them better people already.

China Photos/Getty

A 32-year-old entrepreneur, who only gave his name as Chen, told Foreign Policy: "I feel like in the past six months, people's behaviour has gotten better and better.

"For example, when we drive, now we always stop in front of crosswalks. If you don't stop, you will lose your points.

"At first, we just worried about losing points, but now we got used it"

[Buce]

10 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

This is a creepy version of Facebook or Instagram likes having a direct effect on your real life and that it your family.

 

For any fans of Black Mirror this is just like an episode of that!

 

 

 

China has started ranking citizens with a creepy 'social credit' system — here's what you can do wrong, and the embarrassing, demeaning ways they can punish you

•  
• Alexandra Ma 
• Oct 29, 2018, 12:06 PM

   

An internet cafe in Wuhan, China. REUTERS/Stringer

 

• China plans to rank all its citizens based on their "social credit" by 2020.
• People can be rewarded or punished according to their scores.
• Like private financial credit scores, a person's social scores can move up and down according to their behavior.
• At the moment the system is piecemeal - some are run by city councils, while others are scored by private tech platforms that hold personal data.
• Scroll down to see how you can be punished or rewarded.

The Chinese state is setting up a vast ranking system that will monitor the behavior of its enormous population, and rank them all based on their "social credit."

The "social credit system," first announced in 2014, aims to reinforce the idea that "keeping trust is glorious and breaking trust is disgraceful," according to a government document.

The program is due to be fully operational nationwide by 2020, but is being piloted for millions of people across the country already. The scheme will be mandatory.

At the moment the system is piecemeal - some are run by city councils, others are scored by private tech platforms which hold personal data.

Like private credit scores, a person's social score can move up and down depending on their behavior. The exact methodology is a secret - but examples of infractions include bad driving, smoking in non-smoking zones, buying too many video games and posting fake news online.

NOW WATCH: How 'leftover' women in China are changing its culture >>

1. Banning you from flying or getting the train.

REUTERS/Stringer

China has already started punishing people by restricting their travel.

Nine million people with low scores have been blocked from buying tickets for domestic flights, Channel News Asia reported in March, citing official statistics.

They can also clamp down on luxury options - three million people are barred from getting business-class train tickets.

The eventual system will punish bad passengers specifically. Potential misdeeds include trying to ride with no ticket, loitering in front of boarding gates, or smoking in no-smoking areas.

 

2. Throttling your internet speeds.

photosteve101 / Flickr, CC

This is according to Rachel Botsman, an author who published part of her book on tech security on Wired last year. The exact mechanics aren't clear yet.

According to Foreign Policy, credit systems monitor whether people pay bills on time, much like financial credit trackers - but also ascribe a moral dimension.

Other mooted punishable offences include spending too long playing video games, wasting money on frivolous purchases and posting on social media.

Spreading fake news, specifically about terrorist attacks or airport security, will also be punishable offences.

 

3. Banning you — or your kids — from the best schools.

CHANDAN KHANNA/AFP/Getty Images

17 people who refused to carry out military service last year were barred from enrolling in higher education, applying for high school, or continuing their studies, Beijing News reported.

In July, a Chinese university denied an incoming student his spot because the student's father had a bad social credit score.

 

4. Stopping you getting the best jobs.

Wikipedia

"Trust-breaking" individuals would also be banned from doing management jobs in state-owned firms and big banks.

Some crimes, like fraud and embezzlement, would also have a big effect on social credit, Botsman reported.

 

5. Keeping you out of the best hotels.

James Jin/Flickr

People who refused military service were also banned from some holidays and hotels - showing that vacation plans are fair game too.

The regime rewards people here as well as punishes them.

People with good scores can speed up travel applications to places like Europe, Botsman said.

An unidentified woman in Beijing also told the BBC in 2015 that she was able to book a hotel without having to pay a cash deposit because she had a good score.

 

6. Getting your dog taken away.

REUTERS/Stringer

The eastern Chinese city of Jinan started enforcing a social credit system for dog owners in 2017, whereby pet owners get points deducted if the dog is walked without a leash or causes public disturbances.

Those who lost all their points had their dogs confiscated and had to take a test on regulations required for pet ownership.

Read more: Chinese dog owners are being assigned a social credit score to keep them in check - and it seems to be working

 

7. Being publicly named as a bad citizen.

REUTERS/Fred Dufour/Pool

Naming and shaming is another tactic available. A a 2016 government noticeencourages companies to consult the blacklist before hiring people or giving them contracts.

However, people will be notified by the courts before they are added to the list, and are allowed to appeal against the decision within ten days of receiving the notification.

It's not clear when the list will start to be implemented.

 

A prototype blacklist already exists, and has been used to punish people.

The scrolling list on the left shows individual's names alongside partially redacted ID numbers, while the one on the right shows company names.

Li Xiaolin, a lawyer who was placed on the list in 2015, found himself unable to purchase plane tickets home while on a work trip, Human Rights Watch reported. He also couldn't apply for credit cards.

Source: Chinese Supreme People's Court

 

This video, posted by freelance journalist James O'Malley, shows an announcement on a bullet train from Beijing to Shanghai warning people not to misbehave — or else their "behavior will be recorded in individual credit information system."

Read more: A creepy video shows how China warns its citizens to behave or get punished by its nationwide social credit system

 

There is also a list for good citizens — that will reportedly get you more matches on dating websites.

Baihe

The BBC said that Baihe, China's biggest dating site, is boosting the profiles of good citizens.

 

They can also get discounts on energy bills, rent things without deposits, and get better interest rates at banks.

Andy Zwikel

These perks were available to people in Rongcheng, eastern China, whose city council rolled out a social credit system for its citizens and was profiled by Foreign Policy.

 

Despite the creepiness of the system — Human Rights Watch called it "chilling," while Botsman called it "a futuristic vision of Big Brother out of control" — some citizens say it's making them better people already.

China Photos/Getty

A 32-year-old entrepreneur, who only gave his name as Chen, told Foreign Policy: "I feel like in the past six months, people's behaviour has gotten better and better.

"For example, when we drive, now we always stop in front of crosswalks. If you don't stop, you will lose your points.

"At first, we just worried about losing points, but now we got used it"

 

Jesus, that is positively Orwellian.

[Grebfromgrebland]