FT General Election Poll 2019

[ozleicester]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Terrible, wasn't my fault though as I've said before. 

 

Bullshit

 

You just realised sometime later what a complete asshole you were and tried to play it off

[WigstonWanderer]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

Terrible, wasn't my fault though as I've said before. 

 

That's fair enough, why is it always rich westerners though you lot on the left hate?

 

I mean there are people ten times as evil as these guys on the planet now and they never get a mention.

 I’m not really sure I am on the left these days. I can’t really abide political correctness, and don’t really want Jeremy Corbyn in power (nothing personal against him but find his demonisation of landlords dangerous, particularly as one of my few retirement investments is a rental property). I find gender and identity politics (or whatever it’s called these days) quite baffling.

[Guest MattP]

8 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Bullshit

 

You just realised sometime later what a complete asshole you were and tried to play it off

I stated quite clearly at the time I only realised when something in front of me started moving - you choose to ignore that as you want to. 

 

I don't feel like an asshole, partly their own fault as well if you sleep in a hidden downway down a dark alley.

[ozleicester]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

I stated quite clearly at the time I only realised when something in front of me started moving - you choose to ignore that as you want to. 

 

I don't feel like an asshole, partly their own fault as well if you sleep in a hidden downway down a dark alley.

you told the story coz you thought youd be cool... and still its not your fault... you may not feel like an asshole, doesnt change the fact that you are.

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

 

 

That's fair enough, why is it always rich westerners though you lot on the left hate?

 

I mean there are people ten times as evil as these guys on the planet now and they never get a mention.

Can only speak for myself here but I will and have happily decry abuses of power in China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, as well as other places outside the Anglosphere - as far as I'm concerned vicious power mongering is vicious power mongering. That's why I've said for a while now that the whole adversarial system is broken because it results in misery for so many people in so many places.

 

I think the reason why contempt for Western bastards rather than bastards from other places pops up more regular is because they're in the news more often, and also because often those people tend to spread their abuse of power further than their own borders, as opposed to other places which tend to keep their brutality in house.

Edited 5 November 2019 by leicsmac

[David Guiza]

None of pledged starter homes built, says watchdog

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50296672 - disappointing but not surprising.

 

 

[Jon the Hat]

19 hours ago, RobHawk said:

This is my constituency. Traditionally between Tory and labour and the reason I would vote labour again even though I'm no fan of Corbyn. 

 

It's a bit of a storm in a teacup but traditional Tory mindset too, so it doesn't look good.

You would put Corbyn in number 10 despite knowing he and his cabal don’t represent traditional Labour values at all?

[HappyHamza]

10 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

You would put Corbyn in number 10 despite knowing he and his cabal don’t represent traditional Labour values at all?

Which traditional labour values are you referring to?

[HappyHamza]

It's a shame so many people ignore the result of Tory policy unless it directly affects them

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/05/food-bank-britain-trussell-trust-report-election

[TiffToff88]

40 minutes ago, HappyHamza said:

It's a shame so many people ignore the result of Tory policy unless it directly affects them

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/05/food-bank-britain-trussell-trust-report-election

To be fair, i think most people's political views and opinions are mainly driven by what affects them personally

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, TiffToff88 said:

To be fair, i think most people's political views and opinions are mainly driven by what affects them personally

Of course.

 

The problem is when such views are only driven by what affects them personally. And that is more common than one might think.

[Stoopid]

4 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

You would put Corbyn in number 10 despite knowing he and his cabal don’t represent traditional Labour values at all?

Corbyn actually does represent 'traditional' Labour values (nationalisation, redistributive taxation, anti-elitist policies) a good deal more faithfully than any leader in post-war history since Clem Attlee as far as I can see.

Certainly more so than Blair, Brown, Kinnock - even going back to Callahan and Wilson.

He's far from perfect, but after years of Conservative nothingness it'd at least make a change to have a politically-driven PM in office with a definite ideology.

[Guest MattP]

13 minutes ago, Stoopid said:

Corbyn actually does represent 'traditional' Labour values (nationalisation, redistributive taxation, anti-elitist policies) a good deal more faithfully than any leader in post-war history since Clem Attlee as far as I can see.

Attlee was a patriot, pro-American, pro NATO and pro-Israeli. At times of crisis he was prepared to work with the Conservatives to get the country through it.

 

Despite being frail and ill he turned up to be a pall bearer at Churchill's funeral.

 

He is absolutely nothing like Jeremy Corbyn.

[jammie82uk]

23 minutes ago, Stoopid said:

Corbyn actually does represent 'traditional' Labour values (nationalisation, redistributive taxation, anti-elitist policies) a good deal more faithfully than any leader in post-war history since Clem Attlee as far as I can see.

Certainly more so than Blair, Brown, Kinnock - even going back to Callahan and Wilson.

He's far from perfect, but after years of Conservative nothingness it'd at least make a change to have a politically-driven PM in office with a definite ideology.

What’s that then because he seems to avoid answering questions about the future 

 

[Stoopid]

21 minutes ago, MattP said:

Attlee was a patriot, pro-American, pro NATO and pro-Israeli. At times of crisis he was prepared to work with the Conservatives to get the country through it.

 

Despite being frail and ill he turned up to be a pall bearer at Churchill's funeral.

 

He is absolutely nothing like Jeremy Corbyn.

The question is not whether he's 'like' Attlee or not (and actually in their asceticism and political certainty I'd say they aren't that different) but what 'traditional' Labour values are, and whether they represent those.

Just in terms of public ownership of industry (and health of course) and redistribution of wealth via taxation then I see big similarities. 

These are surely traditional Labour values as opposed to the managerial consensus of recent decades?

Not sure what pro or anti Americanism has to do with it. Attlee was PM at the start of the Cold War and US military & economic alliance was vital. Also Clem was a close friend of Churchill's, so...

Different times, but Socialism was a vote-winner then. Just be nice to see whether it could be now.

[Stoopid]

37 minutes ago, jammie82uk said:

What’s that then because he seems to avoid answering questions about the future 

 

You make a point there, I must admit...

[String fellow]

If Labour wants to provide free prescriptions, free social care, free university tuition etc. by taking the wealth off the top 5% of earners, how soon will the money run out, especially if that 5% decide to move their wealth elsewhere? Also, their idea of a 4-day working week sounds great, but would it really work if pay levels are kept the same for 8 hours less work per week? Wouldn't that cause 20% inflation overnight? Their economic policies would be a disaster, as they were in the past. For example, the coffers were empty when they last left office. As regards anti-Americanism, Corbyn frequently expresses it, but that's not surprising when you remember where his true allegiances lie - with Moscow, not Washington. If it's a choice between the 'nothingness' of economic stability or the 'definite ideology' of a hard-left administration, I know which I'd prefer.  

[FerrisBueller]

1 minute ago, String fellow said:

If Labour wants to provide free prescriptions, free social care, free university tuition etc. by taking the wealth off the top 5% of earners, how soon will the money run out, especially if that 5% decide to move their wealth elsewhere? Also, their idea of a 4-day working week sounds great, but would it really work if pay levels are kept the same for 8 hours less work per week? Wouldn't that cause 20% inflation overnight? Their economic policies would be a disaster, as they were in the past. For example, the coffers were empty when they last left office. As regards anti-Americanism, Corbyn frequently expresses it, but that's not surprising when you remember where his true allegiances lie - with Moscow, not Washington. If it's a choice between the 'nothingness' of economic stability or the 'definite ideology' of a hard-left administration, I know which I'd prefer.  

Bad timing for a comment like this... 

[purpleronnie]

Farage is in a bit of an odd situation.  You can't help but think he's a bit jealous of Boris.  Farage has campaigned to get us out of the EU for 25 years but it's Boris who will be seen as person who did it, and Farage has another problem with Brexit members considering voting Tory to stop splitting the vote.  I wonder when (ahem) we come out of the EU Farage will leave go out with a whimper, which isn't really deserved given what he achieved....and I can't stand the Brexit party.

Edited 5 November 2019 by purpleronnie

[twoleftfeet]

1 hour ago, Stoopid said:

The question is not whether he's 'like' Attlee or not (and actually in their asceticism and political certainty I'd say they aren't that different) but what 'traditional' Labour values are, and whether they represent those.

Just in terms of public ownership of industry (and health of course) and redistribution of wealth via taxation then I see big similarities. 

These are surely traditional Labour values as opposed to the managerial consensus of recent decades?

Not sure what pro or anti Americanism has to do with it. Attlee was PM at the start of the Cold War and US military & economic alliance was vital. Also Clem was a close friend of Churchill's, so...

Different times, but Socialism was a vote-winner then. Just be nice to see whether it could be now.

since the second world war the labour party have been in power for 30 years  the conservatives for 46 years (*roughly took that they were in power for the whole of the year they were elected in) but have some have said Blair and brown are nothing like Corbyn and indeed Mrs Thatcher saw them as her greatest triumph so if you take out the new labour no socialist years, you are down to 17years and upto 59 of non socialist government just remind me again when socialism was a vote winner. Six years is the longest stint Old labour had in power  in any one go   before being generally replaced with 10 years plus Tory control Unles you look at the heyday of labour the late 60's and 70's where  the was only a four year break from the left between 70 -73 wasn't this the time of great industrial unrest but if you look back at this time and realise our productivity as a nation fell from 9th in the world in 1961 to 18th in 1978 of course it could have all been down to the nasty Tory Party, if you are wearing your red tinted spectacles I am sure it was. But lets not forget that it lead to 18 years of continuous government.

This election is quite unlike others in previous years its that straight down the line of party politics and political ideologies because Brexit is the unknown factor in peoples minds always voted labour my dad was a miner my brother was a miner in the miners strike in the 80's and much as I don't want to vote Tory I believe in Brexit, and yes I could decide not to vote. 

[Stoopid]

19 minutes ago, String fellow said:

If Labour wants to provide free prescriptions, free social care, free university tuition etc. by taking the wealth off the top 5% of earners, how soon will the money run out, especially if that 5% decide to move their wealth elsewhere? Also, their idea of a 4-day working week sounds great, but would it really work if pay levels are kept the same for 8 hours less work per week? Wouldn't that cause 20% inflation overnight? Their economic policies would be a disaster, as they were in the past. For example, the coffers were empty when they last left office. As regards anti-Americanism, Corbyn frequently expresses it, but that's not surprising when you remember where his true allegiances lie - with Moscow, not Washington. If it's a choice between the 'nothingness' of economic stability or the 'definite ideology' of a hard-left administration, I know which I'd prefer.  

Few things in life are as pointless as a Left v Right political argument. Let's face it, we're not going to convince still less convert each other...in fact I'm slightly annoyed with myself for even attempting to make a political point when many years ago I realised just how fruitless it always is.

Also many years ago, a Nottingham girl I was deeply in love with convinced me to accompany her to the City Ground, where she was a ST holder. Needless to say, by half-time I was on the train back to Leicester. Alone.

Red is red, and Blue is blue...

[Trav Le Bleu]

If the poll is in any way representative of the country in general, round in circles we go.

[Stoopid]

9 minutes ago, twoleftfeet said:

since the second world war the labour party have been in power for 30 years  the conservatives for 46 years (*roughly took that they were in power for the whole of the year they were elected in) but have some have said Blair and brown are nothing like Corbyn and indeed Mrs Thatcher saw them as her greatest triumph so if you take out the new labour no socialist years, you are down to 17years and upto 59 of non socialist government just remind me again when socialism was a vote winner. Six years is the longest stint Old labour had in power  in any one go   before being generally replaced with 10 years plus Tory control Unles you look at the heyday of labour the late 60's and 70's where  the was only a four year break from the left between 70 -73 wasn't this the time of great industrial unrest but if you look back at this time and realise our productivity as a nation fell from 9th in the world in 1961 to 18th in 1978 of course it could have all been down to the nasty Tory Party, if you are wearing your red tinted spectacles I am sure it was. But lets not forget that it lead to 18 years of continuous government.

This election is quite unlike others in previous years its that straight down the line of party politics and political ideologies because Brexit is the unknown factor in peoples minds always voted labour my dad was a miner my brother was a miner in the miners strike in the 80's and much as I don't want to vote Tory I believe in Brexit, and yes I could decide not to vote. 

The only point I was trying to make about socialism being a vote-winner was in the immediate post-war election, when of course it was. The economic weather was  tough and Labour lasted one term. 

But the NHS, free education and improvement in housing and working conditions were lasting achievements that it's hard to imagine the Tories introducing.

As for the 60s & 70s (Labour's heyday, as you say, apart of course from Heath's 3-day week etc).,  it's often cited as a period of economic & social unrest. Maybe, but It didn't have the homelessness, food banks and massive income disparity that are so evident now.

Brexit probably will have its say in this election, though I must admit I find the whole subject so overwhelmingly dull that I can't even be arsed to think about it...

[Guest MattP]

35 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

If the poll is in any way representative of the country in general, round in circles we go.

If it's close on here I'd say it's good for the Tories.

 

A website will be over proportionally represented by younger people.

[purpleronnie]

18 minutes ago, MattP said:

If it's close on here I'd say it's good for the Tories.

 

A website will be over proportionally represented by younger people.

Agreed, I'd expect most old fogies will vote Tory.  I'd be surprised if they aren't 10pts clear .