Starmer Next Labour Leader

[Bilo]

Starmer had a tough task on. Some of those who could have easily found a place in there before the election are no longer MPs; people like Flint, Onn, Piddock and Creagh could all conceivably have got big jobs in a broad church SC while Creasy would surely have been considered if not on maternity leave. 

 

Nonetheless, it's a huge upgrade on the likes of Gardiner, Abbott and Burgon. It's good to see a SC that'll actually provide competent and effective opposition, possibly even looking like a plausible government-in-waiting instead of an impotent protest group. 

Edited 10 April 2020 by Bilo

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

I'm pretty sure at the time she did believe it, it wasn't uncommon in those communities at the time if you read a lot of the reporting around it. She also had to apologising for a pretty appalling FB post about Jewish people.

 

But having been educated on both subjects I'd happily say she doesn't now - but I still a role in communities probably isn't the best for her at this stage, no matter how insignificant.

 

I mean education is the key, as you imply there I've never been shy to bring up things to be critical of Islam and Muslims, I don't regret that, but I certainly do regret not making as much fuss over the positives these communities do based on their religion. The dedication to their faith, the charity work that often goes hand in hand with it, the sense of community many still have and the loyalty to caring for family members so prevalent, I wish white British communities still had those things to the level the Islamic community does.

 

 

My best guess (and it is only a guess) is that she didn't necessarily hold the views expressed but unthinkingly promoted them so as to curry favour with Muslim constituents & Corbynista party members who she expected to hold those views.

If so, that shows her in a bad light - and is stupid as others were bound to see the tweet. I imagine the anti-Jewish thing  was similar (transposed Israel onto a map of USA, I think?). Hopefully she's been on a steep learning curve, as you say.

 

My implication was more about your anti-Labour, pro-Tory agenda (Lammy rubbish, Dodds useless, Shah vile, Tories doing brilliantly in Wales - all on last page), but don't let me discourage you from repentance for your sins in not recognising the pros of Islam!  Those are fair comments you've made, though. I suppose those who've come from strongly religious communities tend to have more of a social/community sense, but also to be more judgmental against anyone straying outside their moral codes, whether that's gay people or "immodest" girls - strongly Christian communities have often been the same. 

 

On your last point, maybe this Covid-19 crisis will encourage more people to recover a bit more sense of community in the longer term? Not just people appreciating those in the front-line and some volunteering, but even the Thursday clapping. When I've taken part in that, aside from appreciating key workers, I've felt a tangible bond with neighbours who've been out for that - that we really are "all in this together", to quote Cameron/Osborne!  Might all fade if/when normality returns, but I'd now feel more inclined to talk to neighbours I don't know and more inclined to offer to do stuff (providing I'm not too busy/in a bad mood!).

[Guest MattP]

2 hours ago, Bilo said:

Starmer had a tough task on. Some of those who could have easily found a place in there before the election are no longer MPs; people like Flint, Onn, Piddock and Creagh could all conceivably have got big jobs in a broad church SC while Creasy would surely have been considered if not on maternity leave. 

 

Nonetheless, it's a huge upgrade on the likes of Gardiner, Abbott and Burgon. It's good to see a SC that'll actually provide competent and effective opposition, possibly even looking like a plausible government-in-waiting instead of an impotent protest group. 

Weirdly I actually liked Barry Gardner - I don't know why but he always came across as the sort of bloke you would be happy to see walk into the pub and join you for a drink. The total opposite is Burgon.

 

I thought Melanie Onn was a potential leader, genuinely feel sorry for her losing because she was thrown to the wolves by the Remainers in the party.

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

My best guess (and it is only a guess) is that she didn't necessarily hold the views expressed but unthinkingly promoted them so as to curry favour with Muslim constituents & Corbynista party members who she expected to hold those views.

If so, that shows her in a bad light - and is stupid as others were bound to see the tweet. I imagine the anti-Jewish thing  was similar (transposed Israel onto a map of USA, I think?). Hopefully she's been on a steep learning curve, as you say.

 

My implication was more about your anti-Labour, pro-Tory agenda (Lammy rubbish, Dodds useless, Shah vile, Tories doing brilliantly in Wales - all on last page), but don't let me discourage you from repentance for your sins in not recognising the pros of Islam!  Those are fair comments you've made, though. I suppose those who've come from strongly religious communities tend to have more of a social/community sense, but also to be more judgmental against anyone straying outside their moral codes, whether that's gay people or "immodest" girls - strongly Christian communities have often been the same. 

 

On your last point, maybe this Covid-19 crisis will encourage more people to recover a bit more sense of community in the longer term? Not just people appreciating those in the front-line and some volunteering, but even the Thursday clapping. When I've taken part in that, aside from appreciating key workers, I've felt a tangible bond with neighbours who've been out for that - that we really are "all in this together", to quote Cameron/Osborne!  Might all fade if/when normality returns, but I'd now feel more inclined to talk to neighbours I don't know and more inclined to offer to do stuff (providing I'm not too busy/in a bad mood!).

Let's hope so. 

 

"There is such a thing as society" - Boris Johnson 2020 😀

 

Shah will be judged by her comments in future now but crikey you've got some work to do to get a lot of that core vote back, you might have a situation where millions of tribal Labour voters have realised they are actually social conservatives - and they can now vote for a party with left wing economics happy to trash Thatcher. If so I'm not sure where Starmer can go aside from just hoping for a disaster from the government.

Edited 10 April 2020 by MattP

[Alf Bentley]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

Let's hope so. 

 

"There is such a thing as society" - Boris Johnson 2020 😀

 

Shah will be judged by her comments in future now but crikey you've got some work to do to get a lot of that core vote back, you might have a situation where millions of tribal Labour voters have realised they are actually social conservatives - and they can now vote for a party with left wing economics happy to trash Thatcher. If so I'm not sure where Starmer can go aside from just hoping for a disaster from the government.

 

I wonder how much left-wing economics there'll be once we come out the other side of this crisis? Or, more to the point, how much money to pursue left-wing economics, even if there's a will for it?

 

Johnson's Tory Govt was clearly going to be a different beast from May's before Covid. But even back then, it wasn't clear how easy it would be for them to invest in neglected areas and infrastructure, while tackling ongoing issues like the aging population, increasing demands for health & social care, insecure employment, impact of AI etc, without destabilising the economy.

 

It's now going to be a completely different world - and almost certainly a very difficult one to govern in. When this health crisis ends, the UK will have massively more govt debt (& private household debt, I assume), a significantly higher rate of unemployment, loads of businesses struggling to stay afloat in addition to those that have gone under, greater demands for Universal Credit in tandem with much lower tax receipts & possibly greater demand for health services than before the crisis....and still all with multiple public services splitting at the seams due to years of austerity...... Johnson will certainly have his work cut out to cope with all that while remaining popular.

 

That's not to say it's impossible & there's no guarantees that Labour will benefit, even if the public (rightly or wrongly) sees the Tory Govt as having failed. The Tories could conceivably deal with all these problems pretty well, but still end up unpopular because life is still tough for a lot of people.....though 4 years is an awful long time and a lot could happen in that time. But then there's likely to be all sorts of impact from Brexit....might be minor/short-term or might not. Of course, the EU, USA, China and others may struggle, too, but I'm not sure that helps the UK.....

 

Certainly wouldn't be a good idea for Labour to just sit there hoping to win power by default because of a Tory disaster. Part of their job is to be an effective opposition and credible, serious alternative govt, but there'll need to be a few new ideas that appeal to the public, too - not yet, but at some time over the next 4 years. Blimey, if "a week is a long time in politics", how long does 4 years look now......?!

[Kopfkino]

16 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

That's not to say it's impossible & there's no guarantees that Labour will benefit, even if the public (rightly or wrongly) sees the Tory Govt as having failed

 

Idk about the general public but I would expect our contingent of partisansal Labour supporters will have sympathy and won't be using the GLOBAL pandemic and a GLOBAL economic downturn 

Edited 10 April 2020 by Kopfkino

[Alf Bentley]

58 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

Idk about the general public but I would expect our contingent of partisansal Labour supporters will have sympathy and won't be using the GLOBAL pandemic and a GLOBAL economic downturn 

 

Oh, absolutely! Just as our contingent of partisan Tory supporters never tried to blame the Labour Govt for the GLOBAL financial crash in 2008. 

[Guest MattP]

14 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

Idk about the general public but I would expect our contingent of partisansal Labour supporters will have sympathy and won't be using the GLOBAL pandemic and a GLOBAL economic downturn 

When it's all over Boris can tell us that "We not only saved the World....."

Edited 11 April 2020 by MattP

[Nicolo Barella]

On 11/04/2020 at 03:33, Kopfkino said:

 

Idk about the general public but I would expect our contingent of partisansal Labour supporters will have sympathy and won't be using the GLOBAL pandemic and a GLOBAL economic downturn 

It might be a global pandemic, but some places are dealing with it a lot better than others... Wonder why that is.

 

You won't have me complaining about the general economic downturn though. I'll save it for how the Tories plan on fixing it...

[Guest MattP]

Some outrageous stuff in this leaked Labour report

 

https://novaramedia.com/2020/04/12/its-going-to-be-a-long-night-how-members-of-labours-senior-management-campaigned-to-lose/

[Nick]

25 minutes ago, MattP said:

Some outrageous stuff in this leaked Labour report

 

https://novaramedia.com/2020/04/12/its-going-to-be-a-long-night-how-members-of-labours-senior-management-campaigned-to-lose/

Is it outrageous? It’s entirely unsurprising I thought! And from 2017 and nothing really to do with this thread it’s just more left wing hatred from a leaked WhatsApp group that should have perhaps remained private and details that loads of the party didn’t like Corbyn or want him to lead the party.... I would imagine that would be about 80 percent of the party if they were being honest with themselves!

 

Do you just scour the internet every day to find stuff, however old to satisfy your hatred of the left? It’s a bit weird Matt tbh. If you applied your critical mind reflectively to the activities of the right as well with the same vigour, I might be more convinced that your not a one man spindoctor propaganda machine - I’d actually feel better if I though you were being paid for behaving in this odd way.

[Guest MattP]

13 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

Is it outrageous? It’s entirely unsurprising I thought! And from 2017 and nothing really to do with this thread it’s just more left wing hatred from a leaked WhatsApp group that should have perhaps remained private and details that loads of the party didn’t like Corbyn or want him to lead the party.... I would imagine that would be about 80 percent of the party if they were being honest with themselves!

 

Do you just scour the internet every day to find stuff, however old to satisfy your hatred of the left? It’s a bit weird Matt tbh. If you applied your critical mind reflectively to the activities of the right as well with the same vigour, I might be more convinced that your not a one man spindoctor propaganda machine - I’d actually feel better if I though you were being paid for behaving in this odd way.

I'd say it's very surprising, never for one moment did I think people inside the party were actively trying to sabotage the chances of winning an election and the level of abuse directed at sole is worse than they direct at their opponents.

 

If Diane Abbott was seriously hiding in toilet cubicles in tears then even I feel sorry for her.

 

Please stop using the word "hate" - such a strong word.

[Nick]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

I'd say it's very surprising, never for one moment did I think people inside the party were actively trying to sabotage the chances of winning an election and the level of abuse directed at sole is worse than they direct at their opponents.

 

If Diane Abbott was seriously hiding in toilet cubicles in tears then even I feel sorry for her.

 

Please stop using the word "hate" - such a strong word.

So not being paid for this obsessive, odd ‘not quite hatred’ campaign then?

 

Righto.

 

[Strokes]

23 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

 

Do you just scour the internet every day to find stuff, however old to satisfy your hatred of the left? It’s a bit weird Matt tbh. If you applied your critical mind reflectively to the activities of the right as well with the same vigour, I might be more convinced that your not a one man spindoctor propaganda machine - I’d actually feel better if I though you were being paid for behaving in this odd way.

I see a few people attack Matt in this way and yet are quite happy to let multiple people do exactly the same thing against the tories with no challenge.

Pot bloody kettle.

[Guest MattP]

8 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

So not being paid for this obsessive, odd ‘not quite hatred’ campaign then?

 

Righto.

 

Of course not.

 

In exactly the same way I doubt lrrry, Toddy etc are being paid to go on non stop about the Tories.

[Nick]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I see a few people attack Matt in this way and yet are quite happy to let multiple people do exactly the same thing against the tories with no challenge.

Pot bloody kettle.

To be fair, I take that point - I’m not a fan of unbalanced propagandist bollocks from either side. It’s just especially weird with @MattP as he’s bright, has skills, political knowledge and interests and yet relentlessly behaves in this way like one fella waging a weird war! It’s not like it’s news to left leaning people in this country that Corbyn and Abbot were not and are not fit for office...

 

 

 

 

[Strokes]

5 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

To be fair, I take that point - I’m not a fan of unbalanced propagandist bollocks from either side. It’s just especially weird with @MattP as he’s bright, has skills, political knowledge and interests and yet relentlessly behaves in this way like one fella waging a weird war! It’s not like it’s news to left leaning people in this country that Corbyn and Abbot were not and are not fit for office...

 

 

 

 

Obviously there are some big offenders but I guess there are quite a lot of us that could be more balanced in our output and include myself in that. 
So many people seem to be letting hate direct their viewpoints at the moment, when it should be a time we are reaching out more.

Sad really.

[Guest MattP]

8 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

To be fair, I take that point - I’m not a fan of unbalanced propagandist bollocks from either side. It’s just especially weird with @MattP as he’s bright, has skills, political knowledge and interests and yet relentlessly behaves in this way like one fella waging a weird war! It’s not like it’s news to left leaning people in this country that Corbyn and Abbot were not and are not fit for office...

It is? Because millions upon millions still voted for them to do so?

 

One of the big problems I've got now with the Labour moderates now putting the boot in they were campaigning for him just over four months ago.

 

If they asked people to vote Labour in December they wanted to make him Prime Minister and they can't just absolve themselves from that, at least that group who defected to the Liberals or stood down knew he wasn't fit to run the country and did nothing to try and make it happen.

[Nick]

9 minutes ago, MattP said:

It is? Because millions upon millions still voted for them to do so?

 

One of the big problems I've got now with the Labour moderates now putting the boot in they were campaigning for him just over four months ago.

 

If they asked people to vote Labour in December they wanted to make him Prime Minister and they can't just absolve themselves from that, at least that group who defected to the Liberals or stood down knew he wasn't fit to run the country and did nothing to try and make it happen.

I suppose they had a choice - Corbyn or Johnson.

 

Not much of choice really if you are left leaning in any way.

 

And Johnson won.

 

🤷‍♂️

[Guest MattP]

26 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

I suppose they had a choice - Corbyn or Johnson.

 

Not much of choice really if you are left leaning in any way.

 

And Johnson won.

 

🤷‍♂️

Of course it was a choice. Look at John Woodcock and Ian Austin for example, both Labour MP's who stood down and actively campaigned against Corbyn as they knew he wasn't fit for office.

 

They knew, despite being left wingers, it was very much of a choice.

[st albans fox]

10 minutes ago, MattP said:

Of course it was a choice. Look at John Woodcock and Ian Austin for example, both Labour MP's who stood down and actively campaigned against Corbyn as they knew he wasn't fit for office.

 

They knew, despite being left wingers, it was very much of a choice.

Left wingers?  they very likely to come inside onto their right foot ....... 

[Lionator]

35 minutes ago, MattP said:

Of course it was a choice. Look at John Woodcock and Ian Austin for example, both Labour MP's who stood down and actively campaigned against Corbyn as they knew he wasn't fit for office.

 

They knew, despite being left wingers, it was very much of a choice.

The people behind most of these things in the leaks are not at all left wing, in fact Johnson is probably more left wing than Woodcock or Austin.

 

These people had an issue with Andy Burnham and Sadiq Khan for being too left wing, Starmer really needs to clear the decks now while he has the opportunity. If they can't get behind Keir then they don't belong in the party.

[Kopfkino]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

I'd say it's very surprising, never for one moment did I think people inside the party were actively trying to sabotage the chances of winning an election and the level of abuse directed at sole is worse than they direct at their opponents.

 

If Diane Abbott was seriously hiding in toilet cubicles in tears then even I feel sorry for her.

 

Please stop using the word "hate" - such a strong word.

Idk, one thing I learnt over the last few years is that there's one thing that Labour folk hate more than the Conservatives and that's each other. I remember being surprised with the sniping under Miliband (which was obviously nowhere near as bad) and I didn't believe Dad when he kept telling me they're always fighting amongst themselves. Of course now I know about the Foot/Kinnock era, it was basically the same. 

 

Wonder if this thread will get the pointless purge the virus thread did

Edited 13 April 2020 by Kopfkino

[Nick]

47 minutes ago, MattP said:

Of course it was a choice. Look at John Woodcock and Ian Austin for example, both Labour MP's who stood down and actively campaigned against Corbyn as they knew he wasn't fit for office.

 

They knew, despite being left wingers, it was very much of a choice.

As you well know I was referring to the electorate.

 

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, Strokes said:

I see a few people attack Matt in this way and yet are quite happy to let multiple people do exactly the same thing against the tories with no challenge.

Pot bloody kettle.

TBF Matt got stuck into me yesterday for maintaining (mostly) perfectly legitimate criticism of the current US administration (if folks want to challenge it and point out where 45 has done something right currently they are of course free to do so), so it is very much swings and roundabouts, I reckon.