Getting brexit done!

[Guest Markyblue]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

Yeah apart from the devolution bit, no chance of the EU ever willingly handing powers back to members states 

Think this virus is the start of the end for the eu.

[Gordon the Great]

27 minutes ago, Markyblue said:

Think this virus is the start of the end for the eu.

Every cloud.......................

[Guest MattP]

3 hours ago, Markyblue said:

Think this virus is the start of the end for the eu.

Possible, but not certain.

 

The EU has treated some of the countries in the union like shit for years but they fear the punishment beating it will get if they do go.

 

Italy must surely be ready to put it to the public though after recent events.

[Strokes]

12 minutes ago, MattP said:

Possible, but not certain.

 

The EU has treated some of the countries in the union like shit for years but they fear the punishment beating it will get if they do go.

 

Italy must surely be ready to put it to the public though after recent events.

Another net contributor though, that would pull the house down. 
I don’t think countries like Poland, Portugal or Belgium would be quite so favourable when the gravy runs out.

I can’t see Ireland putting much more in either.

[Guest MattP]

Don't think even Farage ever resorted to language like this about the EU. Salvini calls it a den of snakes and jackals.

 

Looks like the Italian people will at least be asked.

[Innovindil]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Don't think even Farage ever resorted to language like this about the EU. Salvini calls it a den of snakes and jackals.

 

Looks like the Italian people will at least be asked.

No doubt to be dismissed by many as "the italian's just want someone to blame" instead of genuine dismay at the EU's response.

[bovril]

The problem with the EU is that its neither one nor the other - neither a loose trading confederation nor a superstate. And therefore they have become victims of their own narrative, communicating the idea of close union and shared values while all the time realising in a situation like this they are pretty powerless and its up to individual members to come up with solutions. 

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Innovindil said:

No doubt to be dismissed by many as "the italian's just want someone to blame" instead of genuine dismay at the EU's response.

...could be either depending on the individual IMO.

 

1 hour ago, bovril said:

The problem with the EU is that its neither one nor the other - neither a loose trading confederation nor a superstate. And therefore they have become victims of their own narrative, communicating the idea of close union and shared values while all the time realising in a situation like this they are pretty powerless and its up to individual members to come up with solutions. 

There's something in this. Same problem with the UN tbh...enough power to be annoying to people and often inconvenience them but not enough to actually effect the kind of change that sometimes needs to be done on a wide scale. Sadly I think it will be that way so long as the big nation-states won't accept any authority other than their own.

[Guest MattP]

8 hours ago, bovril said:

The problem with the EU is that its neither one nor the other - neither a loose trading confederation nor a superstate. And therefore they have become victims of their own narrative, communicating the idea of close union and shared values while all the time realising in a situation like this they are pretty powerless and its up to individual members to come up with solutions. 

They aren't THAT powerless - they've still made an aid donation of 20 million to Iran whilst they continue to fine Italy every day during this crisis for failing to achieve its budget deficit target.

 

Russia and the USA have been a bigger help to Italy than the EU and that really shouldn't be the case from something that continues to describe itself as a family of nations.

[Strokes]

12 minutes ago, MattP said:

They aren't THAT powerless - they've still made an aid donation of 20 million to Iran whilst they continue to fine Italy every day during this crisis for failing to achieve its budget deficit target.

 

Russia and the USA have been a bigger help to Italy than the EU and that really shouldn't be the case from something that continues to describe itself as a family of nations.

It’s not like it doesn’t have form for not helping it’s members, neighbours or partners in critical times either. Yugoslavia, Greece, Ukraine and Catalonia come to mind.

[Guest MattP]

38 minutes ago, Strokes said:

It’s not like it doesn’t have form for not helping it’s members, neighbours or partners in critical times either. Yugoslavia, Greece, Ukraine and Catalonia come to mind.

Has Guy Verhofstadt called for "more Europe" yet because of it?

Edited 31 March 2020 by MattP

[Kopfkino]

10 hours ago, bovril said:

The problem with the EU is that its neither one nor the other - neither a loose trading confederation nor a superstate. And therefore they have become victims of their own narrative, communicating the idea of close union and shared values while all the time realising in a situation like this they are pretty powerless and its up to individual members to come up with solutions. 

Its also a bit gauling to see the EU get slated for its response by people who would be apoplectic if the powers to manage the crisis as an EU were transferred. Healthcare is still completely a national competence and what a surprise that national governments are opting to utilise their sovereignty to put their people first. 

 

Stick it on the vast list of people using the crisis as a validation of their existing point of view, its just become a sea of confirmation bias. 

[Kopfkino]

Hungary is a far bigger problem for the EU than its virus response. A member state is well on the way towards despotic dictatorship and not a word from member states let alone any ability to do anything about it.

[Guest MattP]

"Despotic dictatorship you say? Well this calls for more Europe"

 

[Guest MattP]

14 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Hungary is a far bigger problem for the EU than its virus response. A member state is well on the way towards despotic dictatorship and not a word from member states let alone any ability to do anything about it.

I do agree btw, short term a huge issue.

 

Longer term though, this is a problem they probably have no control of anymore.

 

 

Edited 2 April 2020 by MattP

[leicsmac]

6 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

Hungary is a far bigger problem for the EU than its virus response. A member state is well on the way towards despotic dictatorship and not a word from member states let alone any ability to do anything about it.

Someone really should have seen this coming - economic and social crises breed fascism like excrement breeds flies. Or maybe they did but they know there's nothing they can really do, which is pretty horrible.

 

 

6 hours ago, MattP said:

Longer term though, this is a problem they probably have no control of anymore.

 

That may well be true - but then, who steps in? Or do folks let fascism - the genuine article, it seems, this time - get a foothold in Europe again?

[Strokes]

On 02/04/2020 at 22:06, MattP said:

I do agree btw, short term a huge issue.

 

Longer term though, this is a problem they probably have no control of anymore.

 

 

It’s pretty damning from the Italians, that when the chips are down they feel a distinct distrust and sense of abandonment of the EU.

 

Right I’m so bored of corona talk, I’m hoping we can re-spark former debates.

 

Taking all the past 4 years and putting them in a box, what would any of the leavers on this forum, that claimed reformation of the EU may have made them vote remain.

What reforms would have made you vote remain and why?

@Webbo @MattP @Darkon84 
Similar for sceptics too, what reforms would you like to see in  a united Europe @Kopfkino @bovril 

For me a complete Democratic overall would possibly tip the balance, or a massive scale back of the EUs duties and obligations.

If Europe is to act as state power, which it currently does. We should as the citizens should have full democratic reach over all of it.

The fact that the commission are appointed by leaders of the countries doesn’t sit well with me and European votes here are for our own parties, Lib Dem’s, the tories, Labour and snp etc. When European Parliament  is set up into groups that can swap about and you could easily have never had the opportunity to vote for a group that is to your ideals. I would like to see European Parliament be completely separate from domestic parties, and every party should be represented/available in each country if they are to stand any chance of controlling Parliament.

Freedom of movement should be tapered to give a minor advantage to natives but on a whole retained.

Legal powers should be stripped back and the ecj should only rule supreme on matters of trade.

 

[Guest MattP]

On 03/04/2020 at 04:18, leicsmac said:

That may well be true - but then, who steps in? Or do folks let fascism - the genuine article, it seems, this time - get a foothold in Europe again?

No idea. The reason Orban is where he is is mainly because of the EU and its migrant policy.

 

The only way you stop this is to stop forcing the populace of a nation to do things they don't want to do.

 

9 hours ago, Strokes said:

It’s pretty damning from the Italians, that when the chips are down they feel a distinct distrust and sense of abandonment of the EU.

 

Right I’m so bored of corona talk, I’m hoping we can re-spark former debates.

 

Taking all the past 4 years and putting them in a box, what would any of the leavers on this forum, that claimed reformation of the EU may have made them vote remain.

What reforms would have made you vote remain and why?

@Webbo @MattP @Darkon84 
Similar for sceptics too, what reforms would you like to see in  a united Europe @Kopfkino @bovril 

For me it would have been an end to free movement of people, an individual nations court to be the ultimate jurisdiction and more independence of trade.

 

I'm still embarrassing looking back at what Cameron returned with.

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

No idea. The reason Orban is where he is is mainly because of the EU and its migrant policy.

 

The only way you stop this is to stop forcing the populace of a nation to do things that they don't want to do.

People put xenophobes and nationalist fascists into power long before the EU was even an idea, so I'm unsure about how much all of this resurgence is a result of being "forced", to be honest.

 

As such, I'd dispute that Orban is mostly there because of the migrant policy, but in all honesty it's a pretty redundant discussion anyway - what is to be done about it as a result is much more important.

 

[bovril]

18 minutes ago, MattP said:

No idea. The reason Orban is where he is is mainly because of the EU and its migrant policy.

 

The foreign-born population of Hungary is pretty tiny, and mostly from nearby countries.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Hungary#Foreign-born_population

[Guest MattP]

37 minutes ago, bovril said:

The foreign-born population of Hungary is pretty tiny, and mostly from nearby countries.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Hungary#Foreign-born_population

And the people of Hungary appear to want to keep it thay way.

 

You can agree or disagree with that - but it is their decision, no one elses. Although I accept the point they will probably have to leave the EU to do it.

[bovril]

45 minutes ago, MattP said:

And the people of Hungary appear to want to keep it thay way.

 

You can agree or disagree with that - but it is their decision, no one elses. Although I accept the point they will probably have to leave the EU to do it.

It's their decision of course. But they have decided to be in the EU, receive large amounts of funding, and get the chance to live and work visa free in 27 other EU countries. So you take it or leave it, as you say. 

I lived in E. Europe for 5 years. People there complain about 'the West' telling them what to do but their countries' infrastructure is built using EU funds. Orban's never going to leave the EU, he gets too much out of it.

Edited 6 April 2020 by bovril

[Milo]

33 minutes ago, bovril said:

It's their decision of course. But they have decided to be in the EU, receive large amounts of funding, and get the chance to live and work visa free in 27 other EU countries. So you take it or leave it, as you say. 

I lived in E. Europe for 5 years. People there complain about 'the West' telling them what to do but their countries' infrastructure is built using EU funds. Orban's never going to leave the EU, he gets too much out of it.

In which case he's going to have to relinquish some powers at some stage - I can't see the EU happily allowing a one-man rule/dictatorship as a member state.  

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

I lived in E. Europe for 5 years. People there complain about 'the West' telling them what to do but their countries' infrastructure is built using EU funds. Orban's never going to leave the EU, he gets too much out of it.

I agree, but he can push it as far as he can.

 

It's a good time for a country to threaten to leave at the minute - you'll surely get some decent concessions.

[Finnaldo]

41 minutes ago, MattP said:

I agree, but he can push it as far as he can.

 

It's a good time for a country to threaten to leave at the minute - you'll surely get some decent concessions.

It’s a good time to be a net contributor and threaten to leave.

 

I can’t imagine the EU being gutted about Hungary leaving, I’m sure they’ll make a song and dance about it being a shame and European unity but it goes towards balancing the books and it’s easier to let a thorn like Orban piss off than ruin their image. It’s not like they’re known for their intervention unless they feel it’s an easy target (Italy) or they have them by the balls (Greece).