Getting brexit done!

[Jon the Hat]

On 19/02/2020 at 11:02, Innovindil said:

Liberal Democrat home affairs spokeswoman Christine Jardine said the proposals were based on "xenophobia". 

Was she the one who asked who was going to make her Costa coffee without immigrants?  Defo not racist that.

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

Was she the one who asked who was going to make her Costa coffee without immigrants?  Defo not racist that.

Michael Portillo touched on this on QT last night, how strange it has become that the "tolerant" position is that we import foreigners to do our dirty labour as they are cheap. 

[Finnaldo]

16 minutes ago, MattP said:

Michael Portillo touched on this on QT last night, how strange it has become that the "tolerant" position is that we import foreigners to do our dirty labour as they are cheap. 

It’s a strand of liberal thought (and a very Lib Dem one at that). Other liberals may argue more should raise the wages for these jobs as the poor wages immediately target migrants (how possible that is another matter). 

 

Much in the same ways there’s Conservative stances that want the ‘best and brightest’ migrants entering and to push up wages in these manual jobs for British workers, and one that paints migrants as angry hordes of job-stealing rapists who should be ‘sent back’.

 

I know plenty of Conservatives on here have protested being portrayed as the latter, including yourself and understandably so, and I don’t think suggesting the stance of Liberals is to create a quasi-slave state is a particularly productive argument.

Edited 21 February 2020 by Finnaldo

[urban.spaceman]

2 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Was she the one who asked who was going to make her Costa coffee without immigrants?  Defo not racist that.

 

32 minutes ago, MattP said:

Michael Portillo touched on this on QT last night, how strange it has become that the "tolerant" position is that we import foreigners to do our dirty labour as they are cheap. 

 

17 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

It’s a strand of liberal thought (and a very Lib Dem one at that). Other liberals may argue more should raise the wages for these jobs as the poor wages immediately target migrants (how possible that is another matter). 

 

Much in the same ways there’s Conservative stances that want the ‘best and brightest’ migrants entering and to push up wages in these manual jobs for British workers, and one that paints migrants as angry hordes of job-stealing rapists who should be ‘sent back’.

 

I know plenty of Conservatives on here have protested being portrayed as the latter, including yourself and understandably so, and I don’t think suggesting the stance of Liberals is to create a quasi-slave state is a particularly productive argument.

Thanks for reminding me of this:

 

 

[Guest MattP]

32 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Thanks for reminding me of this:

 

 

 

It's so wonderful to see that moment right after they've said it out loud, when it actually manages to dawn on them their woke opinions are actually the subconscious wealth privilege racism they claim to despise.

[Jon the Hat]

57 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

It's so wonderful to see that moment right after they've said it out loud, when it actually manages to dawn on them their woke opinions are actually the subconscious wealth privilege racism they claim to despise.

At least it does dawn on some people.  So many don't have that reaslisation even after they have spoken and been lambasted.  On all sides of the argument.

[Carl the Llama]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

Michael Portillo touched on this on QT last night, how strange it has become that the "tolerant" position is that we import foreigners to do our dirty labour as they are cheap. 

I think it's more about who actually wants the job.  I've been doing a bit of hiring recently and the UK is very disproportionately underrepresented in my applications inbox (5/18), I'm simply not getting as much interest from British candidates.  If I didn't have the option of hiring the young EU citizens I wouldn't have been able to fill the role because the only one of those 5 who answered my phone calls turned out to be too young to work for us.

[Guest MattP]

24 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

I think it's more about who actually wants the job.  I've been doing a bit of hiring recently and the UK is very disproportionately underrepresented in my applications inbox (5/18), I'm simply not getting as much interest from British candidates.  If I didn't have the option of hiring the young EU citizens I wouldn't have been able to fill the role because the only one of those 5 who answered my phone calls turned out to be too young to work for us.

Then we've got to ask why young British people aren't applying for these jobs, especially when so many of them are economically inactive.

 

The answer for society can't be foreigners on poverty wages though.

[Carl the Llama]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

Then we've got to ask why young British people aren't applying for these jobs, especially when so many of them are economically inactive.

 

The answer for society can't be foreigners on poverty wages though.

I'm all for a higher living wage if that's what you're suggesting.  We're due a hike soon with the "people's payrise" as they like to call it but it's not nearly enough, especially for the 18-20 bracket who are being absolutely screwed by the arbitrary living wage definitions to the tune of nearly a full £2/h compared to their marginally older colleagues.  It's embarrassing.

[Strokes]

19 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

I'm all for a higher living wage if that's what you're suggesting.  We're due a hike soon with the "people's payrise" as they like to call it but it's not nearly enough, especially for the 18-20 bracket who are being absolutely screwed by the arbitrary living wage definitions to the tune of nearly a full £2/h compared to their marginally older colleagues.  It's embarrassing.

I agree with that, I thought we weren’t allowed to discriminate by age but they mean don’t pick on old people.

I really hope the end of FOM forces employers to invest in staff and conditions so they want to stay put. 

[oxford blue]

The end of FOM is likely to be good for most workers. Productivity (measured in terms of output per worker) is (apart from Japan) the lowest of most industrial countries. I think it likely that employers will be forced to invest in technology, training workers and increased wages - for too long they have been reliant on cheap labour. I can see there may be a shortage in some areas in the short term and there is an argument for a transitional period in some 'industries' (eg caring or processing - there will be a seasonal quota for agricultural workers).

[The Fox Covert]

According to the Independent, the newly-elected environment secretary George Eustice has failed to offer a clear commitment that the import of chlorinated chicken and hormone-fed beef will be off the table in any trade deal with the US.

If I thought chlorinated chicken was good for me I would keep the bleach in the kitchen cupboard and not next to the bog.

 

[Milo]

3 minutes ago, The Fox Covert said:

According to the Independent, the newly-elected environment secretary George Eustice has failed to offer a clear commitment that the import of chlorinated chicken and hormone-fed beef will be off the table in any trade deal with the US.

If I thought chlorinated chicken was good for me I would keep the bleach in the kitchen cupboard and not next to the bog.

 

Yeah.

You lost me in the first 4 words...

[The Fox Covert]

2 minutes ago, Milo said:

Yeah.

You lost me in the first 4 words...

Ah! Surrey? Torygraph, Mail on Sunday or Express?

[Milo]

12 minutes ago, The Fox Covert said:

Ah! Surrey? Torygraph, Mail on Sunday or Express?

None. You a Sun reader? 
 

And I’ve spent my fair share of time in abattoirs and I think chlorine on your chicken is the least of your problems 👍

Edited 23 February 2020 by Milo

[Parafox]

15 minutes ago, Milo said:

None. You a Sun reader? 
 

And I’ve spent my fair share of time in abattoirs and I think chlorine on your chicken is the least of your problems 👍

Are you talking semen, piss, shit, what? Please elaborate.

[Parafox]

On 21/02/2020 at 16:07, Carl the Llama said:

I think it's more about who actually wants the job.  I've been doing a bit of hiring recently and the UK is very disproportionately underrepresented in my applications inbox (5/18), I'm simply not getting as much interest from British candidates.  If I didn't have the option of hiring the young EU citizens I wouldn't have been able to fill the role because the only one of those 5 who answered my phone calls turned out to be too young to work for us.

Seems to me that some foreign workers are desperate to be in the UK and for that reason are willing to accept any kind of pay level and employers are exploiting them, particularly in the care, warehouse and food processing industries.

Now there is the possibility of FOM restrictions, employers are getting worried that they might actually have to pay a decent salary rather than the bare minimum required. Pay people what they're worth not what you think you can get away with.

[Milo]

1 minute ago, Parafox said:

Are you talking semen, piss, shit, what? Please elaborate.

Well generally I do talk most of those things, but I was referring above to the whole chlorinated chicken thing. 

Some good abattoirs and some bad. In my experience cattle ones generally good and chicken ones not so much. 
 

 

[Parafox]

1 minute ago, Milo said:

Well generally I do talk most of those things, but I was referring above to the whole chlorinated chicken thing. 

Some good abattoirs and some bad. In my experience cattle ones generally good and chicken ones not so much. 
 

 

Is that because chickens are lower down the food chain? Chlorinate the ****ers. they deserve it. Dirty Low life's scrabbling around in their own faeces. 

BTW I'd much rather handle raw beef than raw chicken.

[Carl the Llama]

5 minutes ago, Parafox said:

Seems to me that some foreign workers are desperate to be in the UK and for that reason are willing to accept any kind of pay level and employers are exploiting them, particularly in the care, warehouse and food processing industries.

Now there is the possibility of FOM restrictions, employers are getting worried that they might actually have to pay a decent salary rather than the bare minimum required. Pay people what they're worth not what you think you can get away with.

Agreed, but it's our government letting them get away with low wages in the first place.  It's just one more thing on the long list of reasons to demonise the EU despite being entirely within our control in the first place.

[Parafox]

3 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Agreed, but it's our government letting them get away with low wages in the first place.  It's just one more thing on the long list of reasons to demonise the EU despite being entirely within our control in the first place.

I get what you're saying there, but I don't think the EU is being demonised and that wasn't my point. I agree our Gov sets the minimum wage but I also think employers exploit workers that come from abroad. That's not the fault of the EU except for the fact that FOM has been a thing for years and that's down to the EU allowing all kinds of people to work in various countries and be exploited. That's where it's at fault.

[Carl the Llama]

Just now, Parafox said:

I get what you're saying there, but I don't think the EU is being demonised and that wasn't my point. I agree our Gov sets the minimum wage but I also think employers exploit workers that come from abroad. That's not the fault of the EU except for the fact that FOM has been a thing for years and that's down to the EU allowing all kinds of people to work in various countries and be exploited. That's where it's at fault.

Sure, but in a capitalist economy employers are always going to offer as little as they can to whoever will take it and still do a good job and beyond a certain point it falls to our government to regulate the market so that those their labour aren't being taken advantage of. If the regulations are causing foreign workers to undercut the market by default simply because they face little competition from locals willing to do the work in question for the wages offered then that's not a fault of FOM in my eyes, if anything it's an example of how FOM keeps those industries ticking over despite the government's lack of support for the workers in these roles.  If the government enforced wages that made them more attractive to locals then it would be a lot harder for foreign workers to out-compete them.

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

Sure, but in a capitalist economy employers are always going to offer as little as they can to whoever will take it and still do a good job and beyond a certain point it falls to our government to regulate the market so that those their labour aren't being taken advantage of. If the regulations are causing foreign workers to undercut the market by default simply because they face little competition from locals willing to do the work in question for the wages offered then that's not a fault of FOM in my eyes, if anything it's an example of how FOM keeps those industries ticking over despite the government's lack of support for the workers in these roles.  If the government enforced wages that made them more attractive to locals then it would be a lot harder for foreign workers to out-compete them.

We voted on successive governments for years and nothing has changed, Labour nor conservatives. This was the only way the people could force the issue. 

[UpTheLeagueFox]

Thirty years ago, aged 16, working at the Leicester Trader, I was on £75 per week.

That's about £2 per hour.

I thought I'd won the lottery getting that gig straight after leaving school.

They upped the dough to £125 per week after four months, which was still about £3 per hour.

No car, lived at home, actually had money in the bank !!

[WigstonWanderer]

3 hours ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

Thirty years ago, aged 16, working at the Leicester Trader, I was on £75 per week.

That's about £2 per hour.

I thought I'd won the lottery getting that gig straight after leaving school.

They upped the dough to £125 per week after four months, which was still about £3 per hour.

No car, lived at home, actually had money in the bank !!

We used to dream of 2 pounds an hour. I had to go down dryer pit working for a farmer for 50 pence an hour. Loads of dust from the corn and no face masks.