Corona Virus

[reynard]

11 minutes ago, Costock_Fox said:

Am I right in saying I still can’t drive somewhere to take my dogs out till Wednesday?

Yes but after that you can drive as far as you want and stay out as long as you want as many times a day as you want. Or at least that seems to be the message.

[UniFox21]

7 minutes ago, MattP said:

I'm not sure the "I'm so thick I don't even understand a basic graph" argument has been properly thought through by a lot of people.

 

Unbelievable she's an elected MP.

It really worries me the number of people that appear to have great difficulties understanding simple instructions/diagrams. None of this is complex. 

 

Out of all the mistakes we've made, picking fault with the diagram isn't the way to go 

[ScouseFox]

2 minutes ago, reynard said:

Yes but after that you can drive as far as you want and stay out as long as you want as many times a day as you want. Or at least that seems to be the message.

so i genuinely could go camping with the fellas even though i said that as a joke? 

[reynard]

47 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

So I’m not point scoring.

 

Genuinely want Boris to lead us out of this.

 

What wasn’t clear in the message were two things: 

 

(and if you want to see clear messages watch the Welsh message and the Scottish messages)

 

1. Going out to exercise more - if you are going to call it exercise don’t use an icon of someone sitting on a park bench to denote this. Others managed to state that exercise should be local and not picnics sunbathing etc.... we know where this leads with pissed up people and parks full of people not social distancing.

 

2. He bumbled about in the message and said that if you can’t work from home you should be thinking of going back / returning to work. He then gave a couple of examples in relation to manufacturing and was it engineering - but this left many hairdressers, conveyancers, estate agents, sales people etc... wondering what they should be doing as they can’t work from home and were told they should be returning to work.

 

The video wasn’t suitable guidance to lead with in a pandemic and also directly contravened the advice that other devolved nation leaders had given their countries. It wasn’t therefore inclusive - it was divisive.

 

I sadly hope he can clarify things and rescue his position on the matter but watch what happens next...

All good points just showing clarification is required. Can't see estate agents functioning properly for quite a while. If you can only go and visit your parents/grandparents 1 person at a time and only meet them at a 2 metre distance and outside then people won't be able to view homes. Wouldn't want lots of starngers tramping round my home right now.

[KrefelderFox666]

There will be further guidance as the next day or two move on, however, telling people something without detail or backing is a bit rubbish. Might as well have just waited or released all information at once.

 

The rules are just so inconsistent it's ridiculous. You can drive for miles to potentially come into near contact with strangers but you still cannot mix with people of the same family who have isolated just as much as you. You are more likely to get infected going out "exercising" or shopping than you are seeing one or two family member households.

 

People are encouraged to work but no childcare is available. How does that work? Stick the TV on and leave for 8 hours, put a bit of food on the floor and some water?

 

Unless the Government are willing to financially support people who cannot go to work without their children going to school, or they open schools up for additional children of workers, it won't work.

 

These are people running the country and they cannot make strategic, thought through decisions at that level?

[KrefelderFox666]

2 minutes ago, ScouseFox said:

so i genuinely could go camping with the fellas even though i said that as a joke? 

Just put your tents 2m apart and all is well.

[Strokes]

50 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

So I’m not point scoring.

 

Genuinely want Boris to lead us out of this.

 

What wasn’t clear in the message were two things: 

 

(and if you want to see clear messages watch the Welsh message and the Scottish messages)

 

1. Going out to exercise more - if you are going to call it exercise don’t use an icon of someone sitting on a park bench to denote this. Others managed to state that exercise should be local and not picnics sunbathing etc.... we know where this leads with pissed up people and parks full of people not social distancing.

 

2. He bumbled about in the message and said that if you can’t work from home you should be thinking of going back / returning to work. He then gave a couple of examples in relation to manufacturing and was it engineering - but this left many hairdressers, conveyancers, estate agents, sales people etc... wondering what they should be doing as they can’t work from home and were told they should be returning to work.

 

The video wasn’t suitable guidance to lead with in a pandemic and also directly contravened the advice that other devolved nation leaders had given their countries. It wasn’t therefore inclusive - it was divisive.

 

I sadly hope he can clarify things and rescue his position on the matter but watch what happens next...

See this is fair, and raises the right questions.

I didn’t see the devolved nations public addresses so I can’t comment on that.

[reynard]

1 minute ago, ScouseFox said:

so i genuinely could go camping with the fellas even though i said that as a joke? 

Well I think if you all live in the same house then yes but don't take my word as gospel. Although I suspect no campsites will be open and it is illegal to camp outdoors in most of England and Wales though not in Scotland. There is supposed to be a full document published later today so hopefully that will give the details. Something Boris is very bad at and has always been.

[Strokes]

16 minutes ago, MattP said:

I'm not sure the "I'm so thick I don't even understand a basic graph" argument has been properly thought through by a lot of people.

 

Unbelievable she's an elected MP.

Even my kids understood that graph and I’ve been home schooling them for 2 months.

[reynard]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

Even my kids understood that graph and I’ve been home schooling them for 2 months.

A good example of why schools can remain shut!

[StanSP]

36 minutes ago, Izzy said:

I wonder how many people could/would go back to work but can’t because their kids are off school?

Kids seem to be forgotten in all this and they desperately need some structure back in their lives before they get even more brain dead.

I’d have thought reopening schools was a priority seeing as kids don’t seem to get the virus anyway.

Take the pressure of home schooling away and many people can start getting some sense of normality back in their lives.

 

Kids don't get the virus? Has that been confirmed? I was of the impression that they can be carriers of it even if never showing symptoms. And I'd rather err on that side of caution as opposed to letting them roam free to an extent. 

I don't think kids are forgotten as such. 

I think Boris mentioned certain years would be able to go back to school via the time line he alluded to and there's talk of Reception, Year 1 and Year 6 being allowed back at a certain time? 

[StanSP]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Even my kids understood that graph and I’ve been home schooling them for 2 months.

I think a lot of people fundamentally understand the graph. It just went along with some level of ambiguity from what Boris was saying with it... 

[Strokes]

Just now, StanSP said:

I think a lot of people fundamentally understand the graph. It just went along with some level of ambiguity from what Boris was saying with it... 

Why quote the graph and not boris then? Is it because she was maybe attempting to score points?

[StanSP]

Just now, Strokes said:

Why quote the graph and not boris then? Is it because she was maybe attempting to score points?

Ask her. 

[Strokes]

Just now, StanSP said:

Ask her. 

I don’t need too. In this new world we can just make the answer fit our prejudice. Great ain’t it?

[StanSP]

Oh and there seems to be more contradictions this morning from government after yesterday. 

 

Raab has said you can meet both parents in a park maintaining the 2m thing. Boris said last night only meet one of them? 

 

Raab says people, where possible if they can't work from home, should return to work on Wednesday. But last night it was 'from today'... 

 

*disclaimer - not point-scoring. Just pointing out some discrepancies in the message being given from #10 and their people. I'm all for people taking their own responsibility and making common sense decisions but when the message is so mixed, what guidance do they follow? 

 

How about the government take some responsibility as well for their own messages and make sure it is clear and consistent before publishing anything, let alone for taking responsibility of any shortcomings they've already made? 

[jammie82uk]

29 minutes ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

Who looks after the kids when the parents have to work? Chicken and egg.

How is it? Are you saying it makes no difference whether we send all kids back school or we just send the ones that need to be there while parents work? 

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

Yeah I seen Keir Starmer said this too, where did he say you have to go back to work today? It’s just from today, they want people to start going back. There’s no consequences for taking a few days to sort things out.
It’s pathetic point scoring again to be even remotely upset by this, and I thought Starmer was going to support the government where he could. Not criticise at every opportunity like the new Twitter age warriors.

 

Johnson didn't say you HAVE to go back to work. But he did actively encourage people to go back if they couldn't work from home and if they could travel and work with safe distancing. He cited construction & manufacturing, in particular.

 

On the face of it, that sounds fine - and it will be fine for some people. But others will feel pressurised to go back when they're not confident they'll be safe or when family circumstances or travel make it impossible.

Some will feel particularly under pressure when everyone knows that employers are likely to shed jobs. If you feel your job is insecure or you've not been working there long, you're likely to feel pressurised to go to work even if it's not safe or practical.

 

- Travel: What if you rely on public transport to get to work? No safe distancing arrangements for public transport were mentioned. Apparently it would only be safe if buses/trains operate at 10-15% passenger capacity....

- Family: What if you have school-age children? It's going to be at least 3 weeks before any kids go back to school - and only reception, year 1 & year 6 likely then; most secondary kids won't be back till September

- Safe working: What if your work inherently involves being physically close to others & you're not confident that your employer can or will introduce safe distancing? Again, some will feel under pressure to work even if unsafe.

 

I know that, theoretically, construction & manufacturing firms have been able to operate throughout all this - and some have. But my impression is that there's been little pressure on employees to work if it's not safe or practical (I might be wrong about that). Of course, it'll be fine for some - decent employers will ensure safety or allow people to stay off, many employees will be able to drive/walk/cycle to work, many will not have young kids or will have a partner who doesn't work. But for others, at a time when their employers' viability might be at risk & their jobs might be at risk, they'll feel pressurised to work even if that jeopardises their safety.

 

Before announcing this shift of emphasis, didn't measures need to be in place to reassure people that transport would be safe? That their jobs wouldn't be at risk if they stayed at home to look after kids? That employers could only operate with safe distancing? 

[Mike Oxlong]

The Boris speech reflected what he is - a politician whose success is based on charisma rather than detail/substance

 

I don’t envy his task and sympathise with what he has personally gone through but I’m not convinced that he’s the best leader for these times

[Izzy]

13 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

most secondary kids won't be back till September

 

[Dahnsouff]

4 minutes ago, Mike Oxlong said:

The Boris speech reflected what he is - a politician whose success is based on charisma rather than detail/substance

 

I don’t envy his task and sympathise with what he has personally gone through but I’m not convinced that he’s the best leader for these times

Fair comment, but this is what politics has become. It is either that or have strong misplaced principles that the majority don`t care about.

[Mike Oxlong]

Just now, Dahnsouff said:

Fair comment, but this is what politics has become. It is either that or have strong misplaced principles that the majority don`t care about.

I don’t follow. Is it not possible to have good leadership based on sound principles ? 

[Nalis]

10 minutes ago, Mike Oxlong said:

The Boris speech reflected what he is - a politician whose success is based on charisma rather than detail/substance

 

I don’t envy his task and sympathise with what he has personally gone through but I’m not convinced that he’s the best leader for these times

I was thinking the other day of how Theresa May might have done and oddly think theres a possibility she might have handled this a bit better.

 

Maybot was always losing the Brexit debate within her party as she was a remainer who tried to pleased everyone but ended up pleasing no-one.

[Dahnsouff]

Just now, Mike Oxlong said:

I don’t follow. Is it not possible to have good leadership based on sound principles ? 

Yes, just extremely unlikely against the backdrop of mainstream and social media whose primary task is outrage.

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Johnson didn't say you HAVE to go back to work. But he did actively encourage people to go back if they couldn't work from home and if they could travel and work with safe distancing. He cited construction & manufacturing, in particular.

 

On the face of it, that sounds fine - and it will be fine for some people. But others will feel pressurised to go back when they're not confident they'll be safe or when family circumstances or travel make it impossible.

Some will feel particularly under pressure when everyone knows that employers are likely to shed jobs. If you feel your job is insecure or you've not been working there long, you're likely to feel pressurised to go to work even if it's not safe or practical.

 

- Travel: What if you rely on public transport to get to work? No safe distancing arrangements for public transport were mentioned. Apparently it would only be safe if buses/trains operate at 10-15% passenger capacity....

- Family: What if you have school-age children? It's going to be at least 3 weeks before any kids go back to school - and only reception, year 1 & year 6 likely then; most secondary kids won't be back till September

- Safe working: What if your work inherently involves being physically close to others & you're not confident that your employer can or will introduce safe distancing? Again, some will feel under pressure to work even if unsafe.

 

I know that, theoretically, construction & manufacturing firms have been able to operate throughout all this - and some have. But my impression is that there's been little pressure on employees to work if it's not safe or practical (I might be wrong about that). Of course, it'll be fine for some - decent employers will ensure safety or allow people to stay off, many employees will be able to drive/walk/cycle to work, many will not have young kids or will have a partner who doesn't work. But for others, at a time when their employers' viability might be at risk & their jobs might be at risk, they'll feel pressurised to work even if that jeopardises their safety.

 

Before announcing this shift of emphasis, didn't measures need to be in place to reassure people that transport would be safe? That their jobs wouldn't be at risk if they stayed at home to look after kids? That employers could only operate with safe distancing? 

Well I don’t know about manufacturing but construction relies heavily on sub contract labour, so those that don’t feel ready to return won’t have too.

I phoned an agent today and he thinks that following the conversations he has had this morning, there will be plenty of work in the short term for those ready, as labour is still likely to be down by as much as 50%. Plenty of sites opening up later this week.

 

Employers have to provide a safe working environment, if they aren’t any employee can contact the HSE just like any other breeches of safety. 
If people can’t return due to childcare issues, then it’s quite simple, don’t return. 
 

Have you got any evidence, anecdotally or otherwise, that anyone was ordered back to work following that speech?