Would old great teams compete today?

[Guest Cujek]

I am bored.

 

and supposed to be working, but a thought entered my head.

 

How would old, great teams fair against today's teams, what level would for example would the 1993/94 Manchester untied team be at, would they be all conquering as they were at the time? or would they struggle to compete in the championship? would they even be able to compete with their own counterparts in the 1998/99 treble winning team (I know its impossible as some of the would be the same)

 

What about Arsenal in the 1930's? they won 5 titles in a row, how would they fair now?

 

what about a bit more recent team, Chelsea 2004/5 won the title by 12 points, would they even be able to hold off relegation 15 years later?

 

 

Is the 2008 Barcelona the best team ever, featuring a prime Messi, Eto'o, Henry, Xavi, Pique, Puyol, Iniesta etc etc, would they still walk any league you put them in? Or be held to a goaless draw by Bristol rovers in the 3rd round of the cup?

 

Has football become more about fitness and athleticism rather than about playing football.

 

Watch football from the 70's or 80's and it is much slower, much less pressing, but by god there is some skill on show from the likes of Cruyff, Pele and the lot? If Gazza was an 18 year old today, just starting to break into the first team, with the support and help that is available today, would he go onto become the worlds undisputed best player? or have people caught up to him skill wise?

 

Some of the defenders you would not want to get in a one on one with like Norman Hunter, Ron Harris or Dave Mackay, these players likely wouldn't be able to make a living these days if they played the way they did.

 

I sometimes wish for the football of old, the characters, the fighting the outrageous crowd pleasing tackles, rather than the sterile environment we have now, but then i watch old matches on youtube and realize how slow, and for the most part, boring compared to how it now, or am i just thinking that its better now because its what i'm used to?

 

 

[davieG]

If they had the benefit of today's pitches, footballs, medical back up, training techniques, healthy living styles etc then probably. Oh not forgetting today's superior kits technology.

[lildave3]

33 minutes ago, davieG said:

If they had the benefit of today's pitches, footballs, medical back up, training techniques, healthy living styles etc then probably. Oh not forgetting today's superior kits technology.

But they didn’t, so the answer is no. 

[Poznan34]

It's an interesting point...this (04/05) looks like Sunday League compared to the lovely tika taka Brendan serves up every week

 

 

[BenTheFox]

The other day I watched a few games from the 95/96 season when Newcastle bottled the league. One of the games was Liverpool vs Newcastle which is regarded as a classic and the standard of football generally was not great, especially when you consider that those two sides were 2nd and 3rd in the league at the time. You have to consider the obstacles that players had to overcome in past eras: heavy pitches, harder tackles, lack of sports science facilities etc. However the game is much quicker now and the technical ability of players all over the pitch is far greater. You're not telling me that the likes of Razor Ruddock would have been able to play in top four premier league side now. 

[Finnegan]

I'm of the firm opinion that nostalgia is great and respect for the past and the old stars of the game is cool but that we get better at sports with every generation that passes. 

 

Pele played in an era of basically amateurs, smoking fags, boozing and shagging before and after games like it was cool. People who've never seen more than a few choice highlights act like he's the greatest player in history, from what I've seen he looked like a one or two trick pony that'd be no better than Michael Owen today. 

 

Henry, Sheva and Eto'o would have single handedly destroyed the 1950s and not one of those is really fit to lace Ronaldo or Messi's boots. Whilst nobody wants to admit it, even "the" Ronaldo wasn't quite at the heights of "CR7" Ronaldo and that's barely a generation ago. 

 

Maradona was immensely impressive for his time but you'd have to be biased beyond belief to think he was anywhere near Messi, whose sheer robotic consistency is alien like. 

 

And its not just about fitness or pitches or lighter balls, either, it's everything. It's a combined global hivemnd, the group learning literally everyone on the planet does constantly. The Peps, Klopps, Mourinhos come along with their tactical innovations, Ronaldinho, Makelele, Iniesta, Neuer, Pique, players come along changing the paradigm of what their role is on the pitch and all of football improves and shifts with it. 

 

You could take any team from the golden ages of nostalgia, the 50s, 60s, 70s - even some football Italia era 90s side - they'd get dicked on hard by even just 15/16 Leicester or 11/12 Dortmund because of how far the sport has come. 

[Finnegan]

As an example, Marco van Basten scores a fairly straightforward volley over the keeper from the angle and we now have to rewatch it every four years and pretend it's sensational. 

 

 

Commonly regarded as one of the best goals of all time. Meanwhile, everywhere outside of Liverpool, year by year people forget that this happened on a normal, run of the mill day in the Premier League. 

 

He's not even looking, disgusting. 

 

Then of course there's THAT Ryan Giggs goal. It was being discussed on here the other day. It's always voted like the best FA cup goal in history, its Giggs basically walking through a non existent defence and wellying it. 

 

I don't want to be disingenuous but the defending is so bad in that that Marc Albrighton could have skinned them all. We've literally seen Riyad make runs like that on a weekly basis. 

 

Yet how long is it until people outside Watford forget entirely that a player considered remarkably run of the mill in the league had the presence of mind, skill and creativity to pull this off in a cup semi final? 

 

https://youtu.be/RdepQeCEKvo

 

And its not because Deulofeu isn't rated or nobody likes Watford, it's just that we now consider such literally insane bits of skill that would be era defining thirty years ago to be pretty normal. That's how much both the game and the average footballer has improved. 

[BenTheFox]

It's like how Graeme Souness says that he thinks Pogba would be easy to play against when in reality he wouldn't have been able to get anywhere near him. 

[AKCJ]

I think players like Beckenbauer, Maradona, Cruyff and Pele were just ahead of their time. They were miles ahead of the game, similar (although not to the same extreme) of Messi and Ronaldo now.

 

I think a lot of those earlier players are hugely over rated because they generally all had massive moments for their country at the World Cup.

 

 

[AKCJ]

6 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

As an example, Marco van Basten scores a fairly straightforward volley over the keeper from the angle and we now have to rewatch it every four years and pretend it's sensational. 

 

 

Commonly regarded as one of the best goals of all time. Meanwhile, everywhere outside of Liverpool, year by year people forget that this happened on a normal, run of the mill day in the Premier League. 

 

He's not even looking, disgusting. 

 

Then of course there's THAT Ryan Giggs goal. It was being discussed on here the other day. It's always voted like the best FA cup goal in history, its Giggs basically walking through a non existent defence and wellying it. 

 

I don't want to be disingenuous but the defending is so bad in that that Marc Albrighton could have skinned them all. We've literally seen Riyad make runs like that on a weekly basis. 

 

Yet how long is it until people outside Watford forget entirely that a player considered remarkably run of the mill in the league had the presence of mind, skill and creativity to pull this off in a cup semi final? 

 

https://youtu.be/RdepQeCEKvo

 

And its not because Deulofeu isn't rated or nobody likes Watford, it's just that we now consider such literally insane bits of skill that would be era defining thirty years ago to be pretty normal. That's how much both the game and the average footballer has improved. 

Not having that. No chance is that Torres goal better. I agree with your point but that Van Basten goal flush on the volley is ridiculous.

 

You'd be better off comparing it with Kasami's goal against Palace or even Vardy's goal against West Brom.

[Dan]

22 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

I think players like Beckenbauer, Maradona, Cruyff and Pele were just ahead of their time. They were miles ahead of the game, similar (although not to the same extreme) of Messi and Ronaldo now.

 

I think a lot of those earlier players are hugely over rated because they generally all had massive moments for their country at the World Cup.

World Cups are great but they're a very poor barometer of quality of player to be honest so I agree.

[AKCJ]

6 minutes ago, Dan LCFC said:

World Cups are great but they're a very poor barometer of quality of player to be honest so I agree.

Yeah exactly.

 

 

In those years when the World Cup was the only way British people could really watch people like Maradona or Pele play, no wonder they latched onto their world cup performances.

[Finnegan]

29 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

Not having that. No chance is that Torres goal better. I agree with your point but that Van Basten goal flush on the volley is ridiculous.

 

You'd be better off comparing it with Kasami's goal against Palace or even Vardy's goal against West Brom.

 

I mean the Torres goal was just the first that sprung to mind, I'm sure there's plenty of Premier League volleys that stand up against Van Basten's and that's just my point really. 

 

Van Basten strikes it very cleanly and calling it straightforward is, I admit, hyperbole but it's also not all that mind blowing in the context of 2020.

 

I mean, remember this? 

 

That's one month. Fifteen years ago. 

 

And it wasn't even the only time Matty Taylor did something like that and I'm pretty sure David Bentley did much better for Spurs, both were bang average journeymen.

 

I'm aware you're not strictly disagreeing with me BTW so I'm not aiming this directly at you and only you. 

[ScouseFox]

i think i could've got an england cap in the 60s, and i wasn't even in the first team at school 

[Fox92]

It is incredible to see footage of Cruyff/Maradona etc and watch the ball basically stick to their foot given balls were harder and pitches were shit.

 

Chelsea 04/05 were an incredible side and would still be top 3 now. They'd beat us this season and I'd argue they'd beat Manchester City too.

 

Football has come a long way it's not possible to compare players and teams then and now.

 

People forget how good some players were though. People laud De Brunye, and rightly so, but I think a prime Patrick Vieira/Steven Gerrard/Frank Lampard were better. Lampard used to get 20+ goals a season from midfield ffs. Ronaldo (Brazil) still remains the greatest centre forward in my lifetime, though I am a big fan of Lewandowski.

[Footballwipe]

Yeah not a huge fan of team comparisons. BT Sport just did their World Cup thing which, ignoring that it was a glorified popularity contest, was ridiculous because not only are there so many variables, you're comparing teams from totally different eras.

 

I'm a hardcore nostalgia man, I love watching our old season reviews, listening to podcasts about 90's football. But I never compare the teams to "what they'd be like today." Sport, like life in itself, evolves for the better. It's like saying that amazing IBM PC from 1992 is as good as the best Alenware laptop you can buy. Of course it's not, but it was back then, and that's all that matters.

 

Teams like 95' Ajax were utterly stunning, incredible teams for their day. The late 90's Arsenal were incredible because of their power and radical diet change for English football. They might not be anywhere near even a middling PL team now, but boy they were incredible back then and were a joy to watch for many. Why compare, just appreciate what they were at the time.

 

 

[davieG]

You can't convince me he wouldn't fit into a top PL team today.

 

 

[bovril]

I think the Arsenal and United teams of the 90s, at their peak, would beat any team in the league now apart from maybe Liverpool. Maybe the technique wasn't as elevated as it is now, but the pace, physicality and work ethic of these teams would be hard for any modern day squad to live with. People do them a disservice. I'd take Viera or Keane over any player in the league at the moment. 

[pSinatra]

It's not even the same sport anymore

 

 

I've not put this video up to say that Maradona was better than Messi (he was).  Just that now it's virtually a non-contact sport & I tire of the 'skill' of drawing a foul.  It's pathetic.  Screaming & rolling about like you may never walk again - then running around like nothing has happened.  

 

I'm not condoning actual acts of GBH, just that it's not the same sport.  How good would Maradona be now?  Would Messi have been as good back then?  Impossible to say.

[bovril]

3 hours ago, Poznan34 said:

It's an interesting point...this (04/05) looks like Sunday League compared to the lovely tika taka Brendan serves up every week

 

 

It's one period of the match. Also, what constitutes 'good' football is subjective. People generally assume it means 'attractive' football, but surely it should come down to what's effective. This season's Norwich probably play prettier passing football than either of these teams, but they'd be pummelled by both. So would we.

[AKCJ]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

I mean the Torres goal was just the first that sprung to mind, I'm sure there's plenty of Premier League volleys that stand up against Van Basten's and that's just my point really. 

 

Van Basten strikes it very cleanly and calling it straightforward is, I admit, hyperbole but it's also not all that mind blowing in the context of 2020.

 

I mean, remember this? 

 

That's one month. Fifteen years ago. 

 

And it wasn't even the only time Matty Taylor did something like that and I'm pretty sure David Bentley did much better for Spurs, both were bang average journeymen.

 

I'm aware you're not strictly disagreeing with me BTW so I'm not aiming this directly at you and only you. 

I think context does matter with regards to considering great goals. Van Basten was a sensational footballer and he's scored a great, great goal on the huge stage of a Euro final.

 

The occasion and player are always important. Outside of Leicester who remembers Muzzy Izzett's goal on a shit night in Grimsby?  Nobody really. But everyone has Ronaldo's volley against Juve.

[Finnegan]

55 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

It is incredible to see footage of Cruyff/Maradona etc and watch the ball basically stick to their foot given balls were harder and pitches were shit.

 

Chelsea 04/05 were an incredible side and would still be top 3 now. They'd beat us this season and I'd argue they'd beat Manchester City too.

 

Football has come a long way it's not possible to compare players and teams then and now.

 

People forget how good some players were though. People laud De Brunye, and rightly so, but I think a prime Patrick Vieira/Steven Gerrard/Frank Lampard were better. Lampard used to get 20+ goals a season from midfield ffs. Ronaldo (Brazil) still remains the greatest centre forward in my lifetime, though I am a big fan of Lewandowski.

Frank Lampard was definitely not better than Kevin De Bruyne he was just different. They're both class btw, but Lamps was like an upmarket Andy King. He wasn't going to split defences with amazing through passes and crosses. 

 

What De Bruyne can do with both feet is jist insane. His crossing is some of the best I've ever seen, Lamps couldn't have done that.

 

But now you're comparing two modern players who are basically apples and oranges. It's a bit different to comparing Puskas with David Silva. 

[ScouseFox]

1 hour ago, Fox92 said:

It is incredible to see footage of Cruyff/Maradona etc and watch the ball basically stick to their foot given balls were harder and pitches were shit.

yeah but they were literally moving in slow motion in that day and age, that makes dribbling quite a lot easier. and they were going past defenders who were less agile than the cones in my back garden. 

[Izzy]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

I think the Arsenal and United teams of the 90s, at their peak, would beat any team in the league now apart from maybe Liverpool. Maybe the technique wasn't as elevated as it is now, but the pace, physicality and work ethic of these teams would be hard for any modern day squad to live with. People do them a disservice. I'd take Viera or Keane over any player in the league at the moment. 

[bovril]

59 minutes ago, Izzy said:

Like I said, the technical quality wasn't as good back then, but they were much more physical.