Would old great teams compete today?

[Izzy]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

Like I said, the technical quality wasn't as good back then, but they were much more physical. 

There's not many (if any) more technically gifted midfielders than Scholes in the PL right now IMO

[Nalis]

What rules do you play with all these match ups though? Backpass pick up pre premier league, modern day rules with VAR or a half of each?

[StanSP]

4 minutes ago, Nalis said:

What rules do you play with all these match ups though? Backpass pick up pre premier league, modern day rules with VAR or a half of each?

So one half of the pitch is allowed a to backpass, and the other half has VAR technology?

 

[Guest ttfn]

4 hours ago, pSinatra said:

It's not even the same sport anymore

 

 

I've not put this video up to say that Maradona was better than Messi (he was).  Just that now it's virtually a non-contact sport & I tire of the 'skill' of drawing a foul.  It's pathetic.  Screaming & rolling about like you may never walk again - then running around like nothing has happened.  

 

I'm not condoning actual acts of GBH, just that it's not the same sport.  How good would Maradona be now?  Would Messi have been as good back then?  Impossible to say.

Compare that to the Son goal against Burnley this season where they basically laid down the red carpet for him.

 

The game is totally different. Obviously Pelé, Maradona etc aren’t playing at the level we see from Ronaldo and Messi, they didn’t have the science or infrastructure (both at their clubs and in the way the game is managed) to do that. Stick Ronaldo and Messi in the 70s and they’d also spend half their careers off their tits and nursing career-threatening injuries.

 

[Guest Bilo]

Depends how you define old. Any team, and I mean any team, who plied their trade before the 1980s would not even survive in the Premier League, let alone be a force in it. They may have had the technical ability, but they'd never have had the pace, fitness, stamina or physicality to last 90 minutes even against Norwich or Bournemouth. Herbert Chapman's Arsenal playing a WM formation and reliance on the long ball with their relative lack of pace would probably be taken apart by a modern League Two side. 

 

Christ, the Hungary side of the early 1950s bamboozled world football largely by ceasing to treat players as chess pieces who could only play a strictly defined role. Wingbacks and deep-lying centre-forwards hadn't even been thought of by this stage, so Ricardo Pereira suddenly switching from a right-back to a winger or Jamie Vardy pressing the defence would have had any team before that time scratching their heads in wonder.

 

The great sides of the late nineties and early noughties would be more competitive - difficult to see how Henry, Lampard, Bergkamp and Scholes at their peak could be anything other than superb individuals in the modern game - but the game has moved on so much tactically from there. Wenger looked a dinosaur by the time he retired despite being one of the game's great innovators at the start of his Arsenal career, the tiki-taka that once took the world by storm is but a distant memory and the 4-4-2 formation has only been majorly successful with us in recent years, and even we don't play that way any more after only four years.

Edited 23 April 2020 by Bilo

[DennisNedry]

I don't think a team from the early 90s or before would be able to finish a match against a team of today... aren't games abandoned when half the team is sent off?

 

I've been watching some 70s/80s games during lockdown and I've really loved the physical side of it, the aggression and honesty in the game.

[Izzy]

15 minutes ago, DennisNedry said:

I don't think a team from the early 90s or before would be able to finish a match against a team of today... aren't games abandoned when half the team is sent off?

 

I've been watching some 70s/80s games during lockdown and I've really loved the physical side of it, the aggression and honesty in the game.

I really miss that part of the game tbh.

 

I know the skill level and fitness has improved in the modern game but it's been at the sacrifice of the physical side.

 

I'm sure people will argue it's a better spectate nowadays and more pleasing on the eye, but sliding tackles and diving headers were great too.

[Guest Bilo]

Take this game, seen as one of the seminal national team performances as Hungary took England apart with tactics and play considered revolutionary for the time.

No team would enjoy that amount of time on the ball, that defensive naivety or space these days. The playing style would today be considered little more than fairly attractive 'keep it on the floor' stuff seen pretty much every weekend in the Football League, and the pace is plodding by modern standards. Bear in mind that this was a side who absolutely dominated world football for nearly a decade, whose World Cup Final defeat in 1954 was their only one in four years and whose Elo World Ranking was higher than any team in the history of the game - better than Brazil 1970, France 1998 and Spain between 2008 and 2012. They were massively ahead of their time and sensational by 1950s standards, but they'd struggle to do anything against any moderately talented Premier League side now.

[Wymsey]

8 hours ago, Finnegan said:

I'm of the firm opinion that nostalgia is great and respect for the past and the old stars of the game is cool but that we get better at sports with every generation that passes. 

 

Pele played in an era of basically amateurs, smoking fags, boozing and shagging before and after games like it was cool. People who've never seen more than a few choice highlights act like he's the greatest player in history, from what I've seen he looked like a one or two trick pony that'd be no better than Michael Owen today. 

 

Henry, Sheva and Eto'o would have single handedly destroyed the 1950s and not one of those is really fit to lace Ronaldo or Messi's boots. Whilst nobody wants to admit it, even "the" Ronaldo wasn't quite at the heights of "CR7" Ronaldo and that's barely a generation ago. 

 

Maradona was immensely impressive for his time but you'd have to be biased beyond belief to think he was anywhere near Messi, whose sheer robotic consistency is alien like. 

 

And its not just about fitness or pitches or lighter balls, either, it's everything. It's a combined global hivemnd, the group learning literally everyone on the planet does constantly. The Peps, Klopps, Mourinhos, Rodgers come along with their tactical innovations, Ronaldinho, Makelele, Iniesta, Neuer, Pique, Ndidi, Ricardo players come along changing the paradigm of what their role is on the pitch and all of football improves and shifts with it. 

 

You could take any team from the golden ages of nostalgia, the 50s, 60s, 70s - even some football Italia era 90s side - they'd get dicked on hard by even just 15/16 Leicester or 11/12 Dortmund because of how far the sport has come. 

Edited. 

[Stadt]

The general standard these days is so much higher. If you put this current Sheffield United team (not a spectacular team but a very well coached one) under Wilder into the early 2000s teams wouldn’t be able to deal with the movement, organisation and pressing. The way teams attack and defend is fairly different to even the early 2010s, Mourinho and Van Gaal are good examples, formerly brilliant but because they’ve not adapted they’ve been left behind.

[Finnegan]

All due respect, if people think Messi and Ronaldo couldn't hack getting the shit kicked out of them by Vinnie Jones then they don't watch enough football. 

 

Messi has spent his career getting kicked and fouled and he never does anything but get back up and carry on. 

 

Meanwhile, Ronaldo is probably one of the strongest and most accomplished physical athletes the sport has ever seen. He might roll around like a pansy but we all know its an act and not because he's legitimately hurt. 

 

Neither player has ever, ever shrunk away from confrontation or been successfully put off their game by physical acts of violence. They don't give a ****. 

 

If the sport of professional football in 2020 involved being physical, tough, aggressive then you can bet that's exactly what Ronaldo would go out there, practice and strive to be the best at. He'd kick the **** out of everything that moves because that's what the game would be and that's what he'd have to do to win. I don't even like the guy but he's a sporting animal, there's no questioning that. 

Edited 23 April 2020 by Finnegan

[Guest Cujek]

8 hours ago, Finnegan said:

All due respect, if people think Messi and Ronaldo couldn't hack getting the shit kicked out of them by Vinnie Jones then they don't watch enough football. 

 

Messi has spent his career getting kicked and fouled and he never does anything but get back up and carry on. 

 

Meanwhile, Ronaldo is probably one of the strongest and most accomplished physical athletes the sport has ever seen. He might roll around like a pansy but we all know its an act and not because he's legitimately hurt.

For me Ronaldo will always have accomplished more as he has done it in leagues that you were allowed to tackle in, I don't think Messi would be as effective in England or Italy for as long as he has been in Spain. 

 

Yes sometimes Messi gets kicked, but he has never had the constant pressing he would receive week in week out in England or Italy. 

 

As you say Ronaldo is a physical beast, and from all accounts quite a nice guy, doing a lot for charity and I have read he does a lot of things for his young fans to, I don't believe the rape thing for a second but that's a different topic. 

 

My first choice matchup would be 1999 Manchester United vs 15/16 LCFC

 

Would love to see that! 

 

[Finnegan]

1 hour ago, Cujek said:

For me Ronaldo will always have accomplished more as he has done it in leagues that you were allowed to tackle in, I don't think Messi would be as effective in England or Italy for as long as he has been in Spain. 

 

Yes sometimes Messi gets kicked, but he has never had the constant pressing he would receive week in week out in England or Italy. 

 

As you say Ronaldo is a physical beast, and from all accounts quite a nice guy, doing a lot for charity and I have read he does a lot of things for his young fans to, I don't believe the rape thing for a second but that's a different topic. 

 

My first choice matchup would be 1999 Manchester United vs 15/16 LCFC

 

Would love to see that! 

 

 

I'm sorry mate but this just sounds like a post by someone that doesn't watch La Liga and just assumes that the Spanish league isn't physical purely because Spanish players like a dive. 

 

It's completely true that the Iberians typically love exaggerating contact to buy a foul, there's no getting round that, but that doesn't mean it's a non contact sport. 

 

Some of the stick Messi gets every week is nuts.

 

How often do you actually watch the Classico? He gets pretty much assaulted half the time and it really doesn't phase him. 

 

This is a guy that's had Pepe and Ramos try and literally chop him in half and still won games single handed. 

[Guest Cujek]

4 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

I'm sorry mate but this just sounds like a post by someone that doesn't watch La Liga and just assumes that the Spanish league isn't physical purely because Spanish players like a dive. 

 

It's completely true that the Iberians typically love exaggerating contact to buy a foul, there's no getting round that, but that doesn't mean it's a non contact sport. 

 

Some of the stick Messi gets every week is nuts.

 

How often do you actually watch the Classico? He gets pretty much assaulted half the time and it really doesn't phase him. 

 

This is a guy that's had Pepe and Ramos try and literally chop him in half and still won games single handed. 

yeah Pepe and Ramos and a load of championship level at best defenders.

 

im not saying Messi is not one of a kind, he will always be one of the most skillful players to ever live, the way the ball sticks to his feet is incredible.

 

but the fact remains he has never done it in the toughest leagues, Ronaldo has.

 

they are very different types of player so you cant do a direct comparison, but we will never see Messi in the prem so for me Ronaldo is ahead of him achievment wise.

 

It also helps when you have had some of the best of the rest players in the world around you your entire career, Eto;o, Ronaldinho, Henry. Then Pedro, Villa then Saurez and Neymar, ok so his current team mates are possibly not on the same level and Messi is changing his game now.

 

El Classico is a bad example of a tough football match, more often than not, they are turgid and and just full of each team trying to kick each other and of course real madrid are always title contenders or title winners along with Atletico. But after them (perhaps Sevillia) there is nothing in that league, the odd gem in each team gets picked off by the big boys, its a weak league no matter how you look at it, only 3 teams are in double figures as title winners only 5 different clubs have won it in 20 years.

 

im not trying to argue with you about Messi not being good, anyone with half a brain knows he is good, I just wish he had come to the prem around 2014/15 so we could know if he can cut it in a much stronger league, i suspect he would, but he wouldn't be scoring 40 or 50 goals a season here.

 

 

Edited 24 April 2020 by Cujek

[Finnegan]

So, yeah, you don't watch La Liga. 

 

OK. 

[Guest Cujek]

1 minute ago, Finnegan said:

So, yeah, you don't watch La Liga. 

 

OK. 

I watch it, i just dont fan boy over it.

[Guest Bilo]

I remember watching Barcelona vs Getafe at the Nou Camp a few years back and the absolute shithousery from the visitors. Trust me, La Liga can be physical and Eibar vs Betis isn't going to be much prettier than Newcastle vs Bournemouth. 

 

Proper inferior team away from home stuff as you'd see Stoke doing a few years back under Pulis, and Messi was their main target. He just picked himself up and kept on running - the way some English fans talk about him would make you think he's just a prodigiously talented Darren Anderton.

 

Messi would destroy the Premier League and give pretty much every defence the runaround. 

Edited 24 April 2020 by Bilo

[Stadt]

Messi routinely scores lots of goals against the 'physical' English teams in the Champions League. English football is more physical in the sense that it's much more transition based and quicker. But it's not full of bad challenges anymore either, the only really bad challenge I can remember from one of our players was Vardy against Wolves last season (Choudhury's against Ritchie wasn't that bad).

[l444ry]

Anyone seriously suggesting that Worthington, Hudson, Bowles, Hoddle etc couldn't compete with the likes of Cattermole, Chris Smalling and Junior Lewis needs a head wobble. 

[lildave3]

19 minutes ago, l444ry said:

Anyone seriously suggesting that Worthington, Hudson, Bowles, Hoddle etc couldn't compete with the likes of Cattermole, Chris Smalling and Junior Lewis needs a head wobble. 

Not sure I really understand this post? 

[Dan]

La Liga's full of shithouse tactics. I can't believe the Messi doesn't get tackled myth is still going on. God knows how many goals he has to get against the top English sides to convince people he'd muller this league - just like he would Germany, Italy, France and literally anywhere else.

[ealingfox]

On 24/04/2020 at 13:58, Cujek said:

yeah Pepe and Ramos and a load of championship level at best defenders.

 

im not saying Messi is not one of a kind, he will always be one of the most skillful players to ever live, the way the ball sticks to his feet is incredible.

 

but the fact remains he has never done it in the toughest leagues, Ronaldo has.

 

they are very different types of player so you cant do a direct comparison, but we will never see Messi in the prem so for me Ronaldo is ahead of him achievment wise.

 

It also helps when you have had some of the best of the rest players in the world around you your entire career, Eto;o, Ronaldinho, Henry. Then Pedro, Villa then Saurez and Neymar, ok so his current team mates are possibly not on the same level and Messi is changing his game now.

 

El Classico is a bad example of a tough football match, more often than not, they are turgid and and just full of each team trying to kick each other and of course real madrid are always title contenders or title winners along with Atletico. But after them (perhaps Sevillia) there is nothing in that league, the odd gem in each team gets picked off by the big boys, its a weak league no matter how you look at it, only 3 teams are in double figures as title winners only 5 different clubs have won it in 20 years.

 

 

 

What do you think the equivalent numbers for England are out of interest? 

Edited 26 April 2020 by ealingfox

[Ted Maul]

Nah, our current team would stick 5 past Brazil's 1970 World Cup winning side.

 

It's why the greatest ever player argument is so flawed- it was basically a different sport 50 years ago.

[Sly]

Athletico Madrid are considered the roughest, hardest team in Europe aren’t they? Even they aren’t that dirty, compared to the teams of past generations. Messi, Ronaldo, Mane, Salah etc etc Vs Leeds or a Wimbledon would be interesting! How does that game play out? 
 

The game has changed. I’m not sure that our 15/16 team would have won the league with these modern rules and VAR. 

[MrsJohnMurphy]

The human ape hasn't evolved into to some kind of super being in the last 30,40,50 years so the likes of Pele, Maradona, Matthews, Best, Cruyff etc would still be up there at the top of the game today

 

Maradona in particular with todays training, diet, tactics would absolutely smash it today