Also in the news

[marbles]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

A bloke breaking into the residence of the Speaker of the House, asking for her by name and evidently wishing to do her serious bodily harm?

 

If it isn't political, it's very personal - or both. I can't think of other reasons.

Don’t know if you’ve read about him

Apparently he was very liberal minded up until a few months ago, when he suddenly started aligning far right.  To me that’s an unusual jump - I honestly think he is just nuts.

Apparently when the cops arrived, he told them “we are just waiting on Nancy”

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, marbles said:

Interesting answer.

If I go back to what you said earlier - if someone doesn’t believe in Environmental Issues, but are silenced.  How will you know or be able to engage and educate them?

They will go on with their beliefs, spreading them in some dark corner of the internet, with no rebuttal from you. 
THAT is why free speech is important!

 

If you think silencing those who are incorrect will change their minds, you are sadly mistaken.  It will enforce their ideals and they will be able to spread it, unchecked.

This is a fair argument but one that I've touched on above.

 

I'm not looking to change the minds of the truly committed, that's a fools errand (or at the very least takes too much time). I'm looking to ensure that what they say isn't believed and acted upon by a plurality of people so that it becomes state policy by rebutting them when they show up in more public fora. Those folks can think as they wish (though they may as well deny the force of gravity for all the good it would do them) in their dark corners of the internet, my concern is making sure that such words don't become acts (particularly acts of government and big corporations), because that is when the real damage occurs.

 

5 minutes ago, marbles said:

Don’t know if you’ve read about him

Apparently he was very liberal minded up until a few months ago, when he suddenly started aligning far right.  To me that’s an unusual jump - I honestly think he is just nuts.

Apparently when the cops arrived, he told them “we are just waiting on Nancy”

Guy who went off the reservation but is still driven by political ideology. That tallies.

Edited 29 October 2022 by leicsmac

[I am Rod Hull]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

A bloke breaking into the residence of the Speaker of the House, asking for her by name and evidently wishing to do her serious bodily harm?

 

If it isn't political, it's very personal - or both. I can't think of other reasons.

Of course you can`t...

 

Knee jerk reactionary view as per usual as it fits your agenda.

[marbles]

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Unfortunately, there are quite a few things that are so obvious that there really should be no argument, yet there is anyhow. And in those cases, the argument can be costly.

Here’s where one issue lies.

Im willing to bet that if I ask you to list those things, we will not be in agreement on all of them.  That my opinion may differ, even slightly.  Does that mean I shouldn’t have a voice ?

[marbles]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

This is a fair argument but one that I've touched on above.

 

I'm not looking to change the minds of the truly committed, that's a fools errand (or at the very least takes too much time). I'm looking to ensure that what they say isn't believed and acted upon by a plurality of people so that it becomes state policy by rebutting them when they show up in more public fora. Those folks can think as they wish (though they may as well deny the force of gravity for all the good it would do them) in their dark corners of the internet, my concern is making sure that such words don't become acts (particularly acts of government and big corporations), because that is when the real damage occurs.

 

Guy who went off the reservation but is still driven by political ideology. That tallies.

However, if they are silenced from mainstream sources (Twitter, Facebook, etc), they will still exist out there.  Others who are confused or who may have questions will come across their opinions.  With no rebuttal, they’ve just added to their numbers.

Before you know it, their beliefs have grown to an uncontrollable size.  
 

If you don’t know there is opposition, you can’t address it.

Silencing it does not make it go away.

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, I am Rod Hull said:

Of course you can`t...

 

Knee jerk reactionary view as per usual as it fits your agenda.

Fair enough. What other reasons can you think of beyond the political and/or he being a figure from her personal past who wants vengeance for some reason?

 

5 minutes ago, marbles said:

Here’s where one issue lies.

Im willing to bet that if I ask you to list those things, we will not be in agreement on all of them.  That my opinion may differ, even slightly.  Does that mean I shouldn’t have a voice ?

It means that if there are matters of scientific consensus on which lives rely that you are in error about, I'll try to point out where the error lies, as I have done in the past.

 

If however, you continue to say things that could put the lives of other people in danger, then that is an issue that is up to the platform itself. Freedom of speech doesn't cover the right to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theatre.

 

1 minute ago, marbles said:

However, if they are silenced from mainstream sources (Twitter, Facebook, etc), they will still exist out there.  Others who are confused or who may have questions will come across their opinions.  With no rebuttal, they’ve just added to their numbers.

Before you know it, their beliefs have grown to an uncontrollable size.  
 

If you don’t know there is opposition, you can’t address it.

Silencing it does not make it go away.

Of course, but their reach will be reduced. Social media outside the mainstream sources doesn't add up to enough people to shape public policy - for the time being, at least.

 

Silencing doesn't make the problem go away, but it does make it harder to spread.

 

NB. Believe me, I wish this this would be a moot discussion and people would be inclined to educate themselves and be motivated to do the right thing for the future and for other folks anyway. Sadly, history and present times both show that often isn't the case, and in some cases that has serious knock-on effects. I'm honestly at a loss for a really workable golden solution here, but what I do know is that the subversion of scientific fact when applied to political policy, if left unchecked, will lead to catastrophe. That's not blowing smoke, that is what will happen, one way or another. It may not be through climate change, but the natural world doesn't entertain delusion about the way it operates very much or for very long.

[marbles]

It’s been a good discussion

@leicsmacI think you completely underestimate the size, scope and power of the dark corners of the internet.   It would be nice if they already didn’t have the power to influence - but sadly they do.  You may just not have realized where some of the misinformation over the past few years has originated - and is actually still being spread as fact, by well meaning people.

 

Anyways, I’ve taken up enough of everyone’s time tonight (for me at least)

 

oh yeah

LCFC 4

Man City 1

 

[WigstonWanderer]

31 minutes ago, marbles said:

Sorry for the delayed response, but these good discussions only see to happen when I’m at work

 

Anyway, to answer your question - I do not think it was subjective.  I think Trump lost.

But since you brought it up, how do you feel about the fact that Hillary has made, and continued to make the claims that Trump stole the election?  
Is that not the same thing?

To be honest I don’t think I was very engaged for that election for some reason, but I do understand that she actually won the popular vote by quite a significant margin, so perhaps that was her point, I have no idea. The US version of democracy is pretty screwed up, even more so than the British version.

[I am Rod Hull]

Back on the the Elon/Twitter subject.

 

Elon Musk (and his backers) is a business man, he wants to make money and I can not see much changing on Twitter in the short term. He`ll let a few banned people come back on for show to placate the the folks that think they`re voices are not being heard and then implement a new structure to how it`s funded. Lots of ideas how he does this are being touted but as I say nothing much will change overall.

 

 

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, marbles said:

It’s been a good discussion

@leicsmacI think you completely underestimate the size, scope and power of the dark corners of the internet.   It would be nice if they already didn’t have the power to influence - but sadly they do.  You may just not have realized where some of the misinformation over the past few years has originated - and is actually still being spread as fact, by well meaning people.

 

Anyways, I’ve taken up enough of everyone’s time tonight (for me at least)

 

oh yeah

LCFC 4

Man City 1

 

Perhaps that's true.

 

Either way, such misinformation needs to be addressed one way or another as it costs lives, livelihoods and material. It would be nice if it were through education and sitting down for a chat, but that will be up to the people who believe in it and disseminate it. It's certainly a massive problem.

 

(And I just hope we take the game to them today because if we try to sit back they'll slaughter us.)

[I am Rod Hull]

13 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Fair enough. What other reasons can you think of beyond the political and/or he being a figure from her personal past who wants vengeance for some reason?

 

San Francisco... A Democrat run city with rocketing drug, murder, violence, robbery and mental health problems. Maybe look there pal instead of trying to spin the MAGA narrative.

[WigstonWanderer]

6 minutes ago, I am Rod Hull said:

San Francisco... A Democrat run city with rocketing drug, murder, violence, robbery and mental health problems. Maybe look there pal instead of trying to spin the MAGA narrative.

Apparently he was obsessed with Trump’s “stolen election” claims and had been posting a load of fascist nonsense.

[Bellend Sebastian]

1 minute ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Apparently he was obsessed with Trump’s “stolen election” claims and had been posting a load of fascist nonsense.

It's always the ones you least suspect

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, I am Rod Hull said:

San Francisco... A Democrat run city with rocketing drug, murder, violence, robbery and mental health problems. Maybe look there pal instead of trying to spin the MAGA narrative.

So the guy comes to that particular house, saying those things...and it's some random criminal nutjob?

 

Interesting.

 

Just now, WigstonWanderer said:

Apparently he was obsessed with Trump’s “stolen election” claims and had been posting a load of fascist nonsense.

Would you mind if I asked for a source for this? It would be nice to have it as a matter of record.

[WigstonWanderer]

Mentioned obliquely in this article.
 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/oct/29/paul-pelosi-attack-political-violence-us

 

Paul Pelosi’s assailant reportedly posted on social media numerous far-right conspiracy theories around the election, as well as other issues such as big tech and the Covid-19 pandemic.

 

The attack against Pelosi’s husband prompted calls for Republican lawmakers to condemn the use of threats and violence against political opponents. One of those calls came from Adam Kinzinger, a Republican member of the the House select committee investigating January 6 whose family has received death threats over his work with the panel.

“This morning’s terrifying attack on Paul Pelosi by a man obsessed with election conspiracies is a dangerous reality encouraged by some members of my own party,” Kinzinger said on Twitter. “This must be condemned by every Member of Congress [and] candidate. Now.”

 

Must admit that my original source was this article which on digging further turns out to be a Trotskyist publication, so may not be an acceptable source.

 

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/10/29/pelo-o29.html
 

 

Edited 29 October 2022 by WigstonWanderer

[st albans fox]

2 hours ago, marbles said:

 

oh yeah

LCFC 4

Man City 1

 

You had been very rational up until this point !

[ozleicester]

commentators.. "city this. city that"

fvck off you gnorant cvnts


oops wrong thread

Edited 29 October 2022 by ozleicester

[leicsmac]

In my neck of the woods, crowd crush in Itaewon, Seoul. Could be a fair few people dead.

 

I just hope the people I know personally out there tonight are safe and it isn't as bad as it seems.

[Facecloth]

3 hours ago, leicsmac said:

In my neck of the woods, crowd crush in Itaewon, Seoul. Could be a fair few people dead.

 

I just hope the people I know personally out there tonight are safe and it isn't as bad as it seems.

Saw this on the breaking news and wondered if you'd know anyone involved. Sadly 120 dead they've said.

[FoxesDeb]

3 hours ago, leicsmac said:

In my neck of the woods, crowd crush in Itaewon, Seoul. Could be a fair few people dead.

 

I just hope the people I know personally out there tonight are safe and it isn't as bad as it seems.

It looks absolutely horrific. I hope all the people you know are OK.

[fox_favourite]

3 hours ago, leicsmac said:

In my neck of the woods, crowd crush in Itaewon, Seoul. Could be a fair few people dead.

 

I just hope the people I know personally out there tonight are safe and it isn't as bad as it seems.

Saying 120 have died, feel for the people in that situation 

[WigstonWanderer]

9 hours ago, leicsmac said:

So the guy comes to that particular house, saying those things...and it's some random criminal nutjob?

 

Interesting.

 

Would you mind if I asked for a source for this? It would be nice to have it as a matter of record.

This article from Reuters is probably the best source:

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/man-arrested-attack-us-house-speaker-pelosis-spouse-faces-charges-2022-10-29/

 

In the search for a motive, attention turned to the suspect's apparent internet profile.

In recent posts on several websites, an internet user named "daviddepape" expressed support for former President Donald Trump and embraced the cult-like conspiracy theory QAnon. The posts included references to "satanic pedophilia," anti-Semitic tropes and criticism of women, transgender people and censorship by tech companies.

Older messages promoted quartz crystals and hemp bracelets. Reuters could not confirm that the posts were created by the man arrested on Friday.

The San Francisco Chronicle posted a photo of a man it identified as Depape dancing at the 2013 wedding of two nudist activists in San Francisco, though he was clothed. Depape, then a hemp jewelry maker who lived with the couple in Berkeley, was the best man, the newspaper reported.

[leicsmac]

6 hours ago, Facecloth said:

Saw this on the breaking news and wondered if you'd know anyone involved. Sadly 120 dead they've said.

 

6 hours ago, FoxesDeb said:

It looks absolutely horrific. I hope all the people you know are OK.

 

6 hours ago, fox_favourite said:

Saying 120 have died, feel for the people in that situation 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-63443044

 

Nearly 150 dead now.

 

Everyone is in shock over here. Luckily everyone I know is safe, but I expect it will be more than just two foreign nationals affected by this, considering it was Itaewon where it happened.

 

I've walked down that same alley that this happened many times. Scary, really.

Edited 30 October 2022 by leicsmac

[leicsmac]

5 hours ago, WigstonWanderer said:

This article from Reuters is probably the best source:

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/man-arrested-attack-us-house-speaker-pelosis-spouse-faces-charges-2022-10-29/

 

In the search for a motive, attention turned to the suspect's apparent internet profile.

In recent posts on several websites, an internet user named "daviddepape" expressed support for former President Donald Trump and embraced the cult-like conspiracy theory QAnon. The posts included references to "satanic pedophilia," anti-Semitic tropes and criticism of women, transgender people and censorship by tech companies.

Older messages promoted quartz crystals and hemp bracelets. Reuters could not confirm that the posts were created by the man arrested on Friday.

The San Francisco Chronicle posted a photo of a man it identified as Depape dancing at the 2013 wedding of two nudist activists in San Francisco, though he was clothed. Depape, then a hemp jewelry maker who lived with the couple in Berkeley, was the best man, the newspaper reported.

Well, things are likely exactly as they seem in this case, then. Political motivation.

[WigstonWanderer]

12 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Well, things are likely exactly as they seem in this case, then. Political motivation.

Certainly sounds like it, and whilst it’s never wise to jump to conclusions, it always looked to be the case. Doesn’t seem like a particularly stable person though in the first place.