The Politics Thread 2020

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53507660

 

If this is being allowed to escalate because it's an election year, it seems that both sides of the aisle think they can profit from it.

 

Guess we'll see how it all plays out in November.

[CosbehFox]

Another bucket load of money being thrown at mystery companies 

[StanSP]

Quite a long thread... 

 

[Nalis]

On 30/07/2020 at 07:50, StanSP said:

Quite a long thread... 

 

Some of the points are good but he really devalues it by others that are just silly arguments which make him come across as someone who is anti tory regardless.

 

An example being point 4 in that tweet - the purpose of vouchers in restaurants is to help the industry and he knows it. He's just twisting it to make a point that the government is contradictory, which in itself is true on certain items but a very poor example here.

[Kopfkino]

1 hour ago, Nalis said:

Some of the points are good but he really devalues it by others that are just silly arguments which make him come across as someone who is anti tory regardless.

 

An example being point 4 in that tweet - the purpose of vouchers in restaurants is to help the industry and he knows it. He's just twisting it to make a point that the government is contradictory, which in itself is true on certain items but a very poor example here.

 

Well yeah but these things aren't meant to be fair or even objectively true, they just need to rally the troops on social media and get shared across the echo chamber. They're not for anyone that wants to engage in critical thinking wrt politics. 

 

Tbf they could have had exameptions for the eat out scheme so as to not include McDonald's etc but they couldn't possibly go through and check everyone's menus. Not that a burger is automatically unhealthy anyway. 

 

The PPE points later in the thread, not sourced and too much effort to find the source (tho I don't think they're false), amused me. I speculate that if I go back on said person's twitter feed there'd be something from when they were whinging that the government wasn't getting back to people, or weren't accepting offers from people offering PPE. I very much doubt that the government are just paying millions for unfulfilled orders but I can't check anything cos there's no source. 

 

And then you come to the title, 'A week in Tory' as if its all the fault of Conservative politicians. As if the politicians are in charge of the website rather than the civil service. Even thinking the politicians are in charge of all the PPE contracts is a bit silly. The politicians are gonna try to blame the civil service as much as possible which isn't good, but also if it wasn't for Cummings' vendetta against the civil service, it would get away scot free for their role in this when they should be taking a huge slice of the blame. 

[Voll Blau]

Quote

Durham’s former chief constable has warned that Dominic Cummings’ lockdown behaviour has made it more difficult for officers to enforce the rules and has been used by some as an excuse for law-breaking.

Mike Barton said the decision by the prime minister’s chief aide to drive to Durham at the height of the coronavirus pandemic had “damaged trust in the government and in the rules”.

After the trip was exposed by the Guardian and the Daily Mirror, Barton said: “People were actually using the word ‘Cummings’ in encounters with the police to justify antisocial behaviour.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/30/dominic-cummings-undermined-lockdown-enforcement-says-ex-durham-police-chief?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

 

Folks can go on all they like about people taking individual responsibility for their actions, which is obvious to anyone with half a brain. The point is Dominic Cummings didn't. The government then collectively failed to take responsibility and condemn those actions. This is the consequence.

Edited 31 July 2020 by Voll Blau

[Strokes]

19 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/30/dominic-cummings-undermined-lockdown-enforcement-says-ex-durham-police-chief?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

 

Folks can go on all they like about people taking individual responsibility for their actions, which is obvious to anyone with half a brain. The point is Dominic Cummings didn't. The government then collectively failed to take responsibility and condemn those actions. This is the consequence.

People seem very quick to forget that there are active Labour MPs, Mayors and councillors that also broke the rules and went unpunished but somehow it’s only Cummings that gets bought up over and over again. 
It’s almost as if there is an agenda. 🤔

[ealingfox]

13 minutes ago, Strokes said:

People seem very quick to forget that there are active Labour MPs, Mayors and councillors that also broke the rules and went unpunished but somehow it’s only Cummings that gets bought up over and over again. 
It’s almost as if there is an agenda. 🤔

 

That's true, but whether you like it or not there is a difference when you're the actual government and the people that have themselves made these rules. That's responsibility for you, you can't always just say Yeah But and blame someone else.

[Voll Blau]

28 minutes ago, Strokes said:

People seem very quick to forget that there are active Labour MPs, Mayors and councillors that also broke the rules and went unpunished but somehow it’s only Cummings that gets bought up over and over again. 
It’s almost as if there is an agenda. 🤔

Plenty of condemnation of Labour types being herberts from what I saw? Plus Starmer rightly sacked a whip immediately after it came out she'd broken the rules.

 

As said though, there's a world of difference between those examples and the PM's closest aide carrying suspected Covid half way across the country in flagrant breach of rules he himself had helped to devise. Then to have cabinet back him and make the British people, who'd abided by the rules often in heartbreaking circumstances, feel like mugs by retrospectively saying that what he did was actually OK. It was a rotten episode, and the rot is now having the consequences outlined by the ex-copper quoted.

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, ealingfox said:

 

That's true, but whether you like it or not there is a difference when you're the actual government and the people that have themselves made these rules. That's responsibility for you, you can't always just say Yeah But and blame someone else.

Well yes you can, arguably the Labour situation is as bad if not worse. Peter Soulsby is the mayor of the only city in lockdown, maybe it’s because he didn’t follow the rules that no-one gives a shit in Leicester?

Where is the article on him?

I’m not defending Cummings but the column inches for government advisers seems disproportionate by some way.

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, Voll Blau said:

Plenty of condemnation of Labour types being herberts from what I saw? Plus Starmer rightly sacked a whip immediately after it came out she'd broken the rules.

 

As said though, there's a world of difference between those examples and the PM's closest aide carrying suspected Covid half way across the country in flagrant breach of rules he himself had helped to devise. Then to have cabinet back him and make the British people, who'd abided by the rules often in heartbreaking circumstances, feel like mugs by retrospectively saying that what he did was actually OK. It was a rotten episode, and the rot is now having the consequences outlined by the ex-copper quoted.

I can’t take anyone serious on the subject, if they won’t accept the reporting has been disproportionate. Our City is in lockdown and the Mayor was ignoring the rules, why are we talking about somebody who is not answerable to the electorate?

Edited 31 July 2020 by Strokes

[Voll Blau]

15 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I can’t take anyone serious on the subject, if they won’t accept the reporting has been disproportionate. Our City is in lockdown and the Mayor was ignoring the rules, why are we talking about somebody who is not answerable to the electorate?

Fact is he is at the very heart of government - he's the Prime Minister's closest aide. He broke rules he helped devise and the government then backed him, destroying a lot of goodwill with a populace that had largely been willing and compliant to do things in the national interest up to that point, even if it resulted in personal turmoil for themselves.

 

Do I think Soulsby should have considered his position too? Yes, if it damaged confidence in the people of Leicester's ability to abide by rules he was setting. At least he actually apologised for what he'd done mind (admittedly only after he'd been caught, but c'est la vie...). It's the failure on the part of the government to accept Cummings had done wrong, and on Cummings himself to show absolutely zero contrition for his actions and the hurt it caused, that has left so many feeling fvcked off.

[ealingfox]

30 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Well yes you can, arguably the Labour situation is as bad if not worse. Peter Soulsby is the mayor of the only city in lockdown, maybe it’s because he didn’t follow the rules that no-one gives a shit in Leicester?

Where is the article on him?

I’m not defending Cummings but the column inches for government advisers seems disproportionate by some way.

 

The reporting was disproportionate because the offences aren't the same, for the reasons above.

[Strokes]

8 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Fact is he is at the very heart of government - he's the Prime Minister's closest aide. He broke rules he helped devise and the government then backed him, destroying a lot of goodwill with a populace that had largely been willing and compliant to do things in the national interest up to that point, even if it resulted in personal turmoil for themselves.

 

Do I think Soulsby should have considered his position too? Yes, if it damaged confidence in the people of Leicester's ability to abide by rules he was setting. At least he actually apologised for what he'd done mind (admittedly only after he'd been caught, but c'est la vie...). It's the failure on the part of the government to accept Cummings had done wrong, and on Cummings himself to show absolutely zero contrition for his actions and the hurt it caused, that has left so many feeling fvcked off.

Those people that are fúcked off with this, would still be fúcked off if he apologised and they’d just be fúcked off with something else Tory related if he hadn’t done it or been caught.

Edited 31 July 2020 by Strokes

[Strokes]

Just now, ealingfox said:

 

The reporting was disproportionate because the offences aren't the same, for the reasons above.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

[ealingfox]

Just now, Strokes said:

Those people that are fuúcked off with this, would still be fúcked off if he apologised and they’d just be fúcked off with something else Tory related if he hadn’t done it or been caught.

 

Now you're basing your argument on something imaginary.

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

 

Now you're basing your argument on something imaginary.

So let’s go back to reality then.

The article that Cummings undermined lockdown rules in the UK. Do you think our own Sir Peter is guilty of the same or not? If not why not? Is he part of the reason Lockdown in Leicester still hasn’t been lifted? This is a guy we (the Leicester electorate, not yourself presumably) can take action on, if we deem it so.

I think, like Cummings he did something daft, like most people did and bent the rules ever so slightly when it suited them.

Personally, I think we should move on from both but a certain group want to have conversations about one but not the other.

[Voll Blau]

27 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Those people that are fúcked off with this, would still be fúcked off if he apologised and they’d just be fúcked off with something else Tory related if he hadn’t done it or been caught.

Pretty sure all those Tory MPs who called for his resignation after being inundated with angry letters from their voters would disagree. This matter went well beyond party loyalties in determining how people felt one way or the other.

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Pretty sure all those Tory MPs who called for his resignation after being inundated with angry letters from their voters would disagree. This matter went well beyond party loyalties in determining how people felt one way or the other.

Cummings is hated by plenty within too, so it’s not that much of a surprise.

Also I’m not saying you can’t be angry or feel a certain way about it. I just don’t understand how one is better than the other. Most of us here have some kind of attachment to Leicester but Soulsby somehow is not at the focal point of the conversations, when we discuss public figures disregarding the rules. Call me cynical but it feels like it’s not based on anything other than Tory bashing.

[Voll Blau]

10 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Cummings is hated by plenty within too, so it’s not that much of a surprise.

Also I’m not saying you can’t be angry or feel a certain way about it. I just don’t understand how one is better than the other. Most of us here have some kind of attachment to Leicester but Soulsby somehow is not at the focal point of the conversations, when we discuss public figures disregarding the rules. Call me cynical but it feels like it’s not based on anything other than Tory bashing.

 

You are being cynical as I can't imagine a situation in which I wouldn't feel the same about an aide in a government of any colour doing what he did, or said government backing them in the way Johnson and Co did.

 

It's not a partisan matter, but if you really want to compare the two incidents then the facts are that Soulsby is a local figure who barely anyone outside Leicester would know (a few more people might recognise him due to recent weeks I guess) or, more crucially, give a shit about. What he says or does has no bearing on the lives of anyone outside of Leicester.

 

Cummings on the other hand is a nationally-known figure and the right hand man of the Prime Minister. A Prime Minister who ordered all of us to obey unprecedented restrictions on our liberties for the common good, overriding any familial or human instincts we may have had lest we be carrying a killer disease without knowing. Cummings disobeyed those rules in flagrant disregard for millions of people and couldn't even bring himself, at the very least, to admit what he'd done was wrong.

 

Both people did wrong, but the differences in importance of those two people and, crucially, the effect their actions have on the wider population are incomparable.

Edited 31 July 2020 by Voll Blau

[ealingfox]

30 minutes ago, Strokes said:

So let’s go back to reality then.

The article that Cummings undermined lockdown rules in the UK. Do you think our own Sir Peter is guilty of the same or not? If not why not? Is he part of the reason Lockdown in Leicester still hasn’t been lifted? This is a guy we (the Leicester electorate, not yourself presumably) can take action on, if we deem it so.

I think, like Cummings he did something daft, like most people did and bent the rules ever so slightly when it suited them.

Personally, I think we should move on from both but a certain group want to have conversations about one but not the other.

 

From what I understand about Soulsby he broke the lockdown rules yeah, so he was in the wrong. He didnt go as far as driving to the other end of the country and visit tourist attractions from what I know, happy to be corrected on that. Nor did he go on primetime tv, keep people waiting ages, refuse to apologise and brazenly lie about it.

 

You've said it yourself, Soulsby is accountable to the people of Leicester. The government is accountable to the whole nation. It's a different scale, and that's why the reporting is of a different magnitude. One is local, one is national. Same reason all the Tory MPs and local councillors that broke the rules weren't covered to the same extent.

 

Soulsby didnt write the rules, from what we can see now it seems he is no more in the loop than you or me about what the government want. Is he part of the reason Leicester is still in lockdown? I dont know, but if he is then so is Cummings.

 

We're just back to the same basic point that it's worse for members of the government to break their own rules than for anyone else to break them. Seems you dont agree with that, and if not, why not?

 

Clearly we'll have to agree to disagree, but it's ironic you're criticising people for excusing one and going in hard on the other and 'having an agenda' when you're doing the same thing and clearly have your own.

[Strokes]

8 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

 

From what I understand about Soulsby he broke the lockdown rules yeah, so he was in the wrong. He didnt go as far as driving to the other end of the country and visit tourist attractions from what I know, happy to be corrected on that. Nor did he go on primetime tv, keep people waiting ages, refuse to apologise and brazenly lie about it.

 

You've said it yourself, Soulsby is accountable to the people of Leicester. The government is accountable to the whole nation. It's a different scale, and that's why the reporting is of a different magnitude. One is local, one is national. Same reason all the Tory MPs and local councillors that broke the rules weren't covered to the same extent.

 

Soulsby didnt write the rules, from what we can see now it seems he is no more in the loop than you or me about what the government want. Is he part of the reason Leicester is still in lockdown? I dont know, but if he is then so is Cummings.

 

We're just back to the same basic point that it's worse for members of the government to break their own rules than for anyone else to break them. Seems you dont agree with that, and if not, why not?

 

Clearly we'll have to agree to disagree, but it's ironic you're criticising people for excusing one and going in hard on the other and 'having an agenda' when you're doing the same thing and clearly have your own.

Me highlighting the two similar cases is me going in hard on Soulsby, Christ you’re struggling. I said both incidents are similar and I’m not particularly arsed about either now. But if one constantly gets bought up on here at the very least, it should be the local one.

We don’t have to carry on this conversation though, I’ve got my answer

 

[Strokes]

12 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

 

You are being cynical as I can't imagine a situation in which I wouldn't feel the same about an aide in a government of any colour doing what he did, or said government backing them in the way Johnson and Co did.

 

It's not a partisan matter, but if you really want to compare the two incidents then the facts are that Soulsby is a local figure who barely anyone outside Leicester would know (a few more people might recognise him due to recent weeks I guess) or, more crucially, give a shit about. What he says or does has no bearing on the lives of anyone outside of Leicester.

 

Cummings on the other hand is a nationally-known figure and the right hand man of the Prime Minister. A Prime Minister who ordered all of us to obey unprecedented restrictions on our liberties for the common good, overriding any familial or human instincts we may have had lest we be carrying a killer disease without knowing. Cummings disobeyed those rules in flagrant disregard for millions of people and couldn't even bring himself, at the very least, to admit what he'd done was wrong.

 

Both people did wrong, but the differences in importance of those two people and, crucially, the effect their actions have on the wider population are incomparable.

Yes I can understand why nationally nobody gave a monkeys until recently but Leicester is the only city in lockdown, we are the focal point of the subject now and yet the conversation is still always about Cummings. Strange that.

[ealingfox]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

Me highlighting the two similar cases is me going in hard on Soulsby, Christ you’re struggling. I said both incidents are similar and I’m not particularly arsed about either now. But if one constantly gets bought up on here at the very least, it should be the local one.

We don’t have to carry on this conversation though, I’ve got my answer

 

 

They're not that similar though are they?

[Strokes]

Just now, ealingfox said:

 

They're not that similar though are they?

Yes.