The Politics Thread 2020

[Stadt]

18 minutes ago, murphy said:

I don't see why not.  They have their own devolved government and representation at Westminster.  They have their Barnett formula, their free prescriptions and free university places and they have their convenient 'get out of jail free card' for anything that goes wrong.  Just blame it on Westminster.  And they get their bills paid.

 

It would be interesting to see how they get on with independence but i don't trust our politicians to be firm enough to refuse a bail out when they find the realities more uncomfortable than they thought.

 

I would like to hear a properly costed, rational argument in favour.

 

 

I agree with all of that, it’s just that if I was  Scottish I’d probably resent Westminster to some degree. I feel a bit like that and I’m obviously English. The East Midlands is routinely shafted more so than most places but no song and dance is made of it.

[murphy]

3 minutes ago, bovril said:

But again, this is reminiscent of Brexit where we had a pretty sweet deal and the perfect scapegoat but gave it up for more sovereignty. The arguments don't work like they used to.

 

It'll be a mess, but ultimately if one country in a union is moving in a different direction politically to others in the union then it will eventually have to leave. Same with the UK and the EU. The sad irony is that both the UK and Scotland have played a big part in shaping the unions they are now trying to leave. 

Yes I see the parallels there but there is a key difference.  EU did not pay our bills for us, quite the opposite in fact  Scotland is reliant on UK for theirs.

 

 

[LiberalFox]

2 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

 

So how were the Conservatives supposed to defend the union? They either embraced Brexit as that was what the majority of the voting public in the union voted for, or they rejected Brexit just to appease the Scots. 

 

Or are you suggesting the Scots should have been allowed to remain in the EU? Which again, sticking a border up between the two, would be a strange way of saving the union. 

 

Its fine to think the union is dead, it doesn't really function as a union, I'm just not really what you expected the Conservative party to do to save the union? 

The Independence referendum was in 2014, before Brexit. If they wanted to save the union I think they would have had a strategy for that using the asset they had in Ruth Davidson and not called the Brexit referendum. But you're asking someone who hasn't considered themselves conservative or considered voting for the Conservative party nationally since 2010. I didn't expect the Conservative party to save the union, I don't even know what the Conservative party actually represents anymore, it seems like a lose structure of upper class toffs living out their power fantasies held in place by a flawed electoral system and weak opposition. 

[Salisbury Fox]

1 hour ago, murphy said:

I would like to hear a properly costed, rational argument in favour.

You will be waiting a long time for that! 

[CosbehFox]

If there was any further evidence required that Liam Fox is a thicko, how about having a UK-US trade dossier/files on your personal email account. Therefore making it easy pickings for the Russian govt to get at

[Kopfkino]

4 hours ago, LiberalFox said:

The Independence referendum was in 2014, before Brexit. If they wanted to save the union I think they would have had a strategy for that using the asset they had in Ruth Davidson and not called the Brexit referendum. But you're asking someone who hasn't considered themselves conservative or considered voting for the Conservative party nationally since 2010. I didn't expect the Conservative party to save the union, I don't even know what the Conservative party actually represents anymore, it seems like a lose structure of upper class toffs living out their power fantasies held in place by a flawed electoral system and weak opposition. 

 

Your words were that the Conservatives could have potentially saved the union by not backing Brexit. That's why I'm asking you but you don't have anything to back it up. 

 

The Conservatives didn't back Brexit before the majority of the voters in the Union expressed a wish to leave the EU. For some reason, you seem to believe that the way to save the union was either by not holding the referendum, thus not allowing people (and the nations of England and Wales) to reveal their preferences to appease the Scots or they should have ignored those preferences to appease the Scots. Strange version of a Union. 

 

You might do well in the Conservative Party, desperately wishing to hang on to something whose time has passed is quite a conservative view. 

[StanSP]

1 hour ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

If there was any further evidence required that Liam Fox is a thicko, how about having a UK-US trade dossier/files on your personal email account. Therefore making it easy pickings for the Russian govt to get at

Is this legal under new GDPR rules? 

[CosbehFox]

Finally Starmer calls out Boris on his ‘world beating’ Track and Trace System. We have councils now set up their own in lieu of a working system. 

[twoleftfeet]

A question to all the socialists should the points won by clubs in the league this season be redistributed to help the less fortunate clubs? Thus we all end the season on 52.4 pionts or should pionts just be taken from the top 1% of clubs in the league and given to the less fortunate clubs?

[Finnaldo]

4 hours ago, twoleftfeet said:

A question to all the socialists should the points won by clubs in the league this season be redistributed to help the less fortunate clubs? Thus we all end the season on 52.4 pionts or should pionts just be taken from the top 1% of clubs in the league and given to the less fortunate clubs?

A couple of points:

 

1) Who are you actually addressing here? Whenever I see ‘socialists’ used in these kinds of posts it’s is usually addressed to anyone left of Thatcher but if you mean actual economic collectivists I’d think you’d be disappointed quite how many ‘socialists’ in that regard are actually on this board. 
 

2) This is a totally useless analogy based on the fact sporting competition (e.g. ‘points’) is in no way compatible to social or economic issues. If you wanted to make an actual argument you’d have to make a like-for-like comparison to football economics. Socialism such as wage caps to stop the elite clubs running away with their vast resources and ensuring fairer competition, more equal dispersal of revenue across leagues to ensure survival of the lower leagues, and campaigns such as ‘Twenty’s Plenty’ aimed at ensuring ticket prices stay at a price affordable to fans and not the few who can afford £60-£100 a game. But then, they’re all extremely popular with the majority of football fans.

[Kopfkino]

5 hours ago, twoleftfeet said:

A question to all the socialists should the points won by clubs in the league this season be redistributed to help the less fortunate clubs? Thus we all end the season on 52.4 pionts or should pionts just be taken from the top 1% of clubs in the league and given to the less fortunate clubs?

 

Liverpool should give us at least 4 points imho

[urban.spaceman]

It's..................... Kamala Harris.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53739323

[Finnaldo]

5 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

It's..................... Kamala Harris.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53739323

A former state prosecutor, at a time American liberals really love the police and prosecutors. 
 

Honestly this is a worse campaign than Clinton, whenever I see Biden I think he’s either senile or a creep. The only saving grace for him is the electorate won’t take Trump as a complete joke this time around.

Edited 11 August 2020 by Finnaldo

[Stadt]

1 minute ago, Finnaldo said:

A former state prosecutor, at a time American liberals really love the police and prosecutors. 
 

Honestly this is a worse campaign than Clinton, whenever I see Biden I think he’s either senile or a creep. The only saving grace for him is the electorate won’t take Trump as a complete joke this time around.

The vast majority of Americans DO have faith in the police, even African Americans. https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx

 

If liberals don't vote because Harris is a law & order candidate then they're cutting their nose to spite their face.

[foxile5]

12 minutes ago, Stadt said:

The vast majority of Americans DO have faith in the police, even African Americans. https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx

 

If liberals don't vote because Harris is a law & order candidate then they're cutting their nose to spite their face.

Liberals not voting are responsible for trump being in power. 

 

Hipster, artisnal kale eating, alternative medicine types who thought that it was a nifty protest and cool standpoint not to vote hold s great deal of responsibility. Huge numbers of them.

[foxile5]

27 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

A former state prosecutor, at a time American liberals really love the police and prosecutors. 
 

Honestly this is a worse campaign than Clinton, whenever I see Biden I think he’s either senile or a creep. The only saving grace for him is the electorate won’t take Trump as a complete joke this time around.

If you really fifteen minutes of rip-roaring, jaw dropping, hilarious idiocy watch this speech : 

 

I have not laughed so hard in my life at this strange word soup from Biden. I swear his brain must be 80% mush. Even manages a strange, potentially racist, swipe at African American children. 

[foxile5]

3 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

If you really fifteen minutes of rip-roaring, jaw dropping, hilarious idiocy watch this speech : 

 

 

I have not laughed so hard in my life at this strange word soup from Biden. I swear his brain must be 80% mush. Even manages a strange, potentially racist, swipe at African American children. 

Haha watching this again and tears are streaming down my face already. 

 

'Hey all the kids. Wanna come up here? Uncle Joe wants to sniff your hair.' 

[Guest Fktf]

2 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

Liberals not voting are responsible for trump being in power. 

 

Hipster, artisnal kale eating, alternative medicine types who thought that it was a nifty protest and cool standpoint not to vote hold s great deal of responsibility. Huge numbers of them.

There's a fantastic (if you're into this stuff) documentary on Netflix about how social media campaigns can play on these ideas.

 

They talked about a country (think it was Trinidad and Tobago) where there's 2 parties that stand a of winning, and the large Asian community tends to vote for one party, and the large Black community the other party. There was social media campaign on behalf of the party generally favoured by Asian people, where they targeted all young adults with messages saying things like: if you hate politics the best protest if not to vote at all. But this was done in the knowledge that the Asian families would pretty much force their young adults to vote, and they'd likely pick the party aligned with their community. However, this family pressure would be less in the black community, and young black adults would be more likely to 'be allowed' to not. So the media campaign ended up having differential effects on younger voters in the two communities, which meant removing many more young votes from one party than the other. And guess which party came to power.

[foxile5]

1 minute ago, Fktf said:

There's a fantastic (if you're into this stuff) documentary on Netflix about how social media campaigns can play on these ideas.

 

They talked about a country (think it was Trinidad and Tobago) where there's 2 parties that stand a of winning, and the large Asian community tends to vote for one party, and the large Black community the other party. There was social media campaign on behalf of the party generally favoured by Asian people, where they targeted all young adults with messages saying things like: if you hate politics the best protest if not to vote at all. But this was done in the knowledge that the Asian families would pretty much force their young adults to vote, and they'd likely pick the party aligned with their community. However, this family pressure would be less in the black community, and young black adults would be more likely to 'be allowed' to not. So the media campaign ended up having differential effects on younger voters in the two communities, which meant removing many more young votes from one party than the other. And guess which party came to power.

Yeah I can well imagine. 

 

 

The young hipster vote was likely influenced in some way or other but I can't help but laugh at the shrieking '45 isn't my president' crowd when the likelihood is they didn't vote. 

[foxile5]

4 minutes ago, Fktf said:

There's a fantastic (if you're into this stuff) documentary on Netflix about how social media campaigns can play on these ideas.

 

They talked about a country (think it was Trinidad and Tobago) where there's 2 parties that stand a of winning, and the large Asian community tends to vote for one party, and the large Black community the other party. There was social media campaign on behalf of the party generally favoured by Asian people, where they targeted all young adults with messages saying things like: if you hate politics the best protest if not to vote at all. But this was done in the knowledge that the Asian families would pretty much force their young adults to vote, and they'd likely pick the party aligned with their community. However, this family pressure would be less in the black community, and young black adults would be more likely to 'be allowed' to not. So the media campaign ended up having differential effects on younger voters in the two communities, which meant removing many more young votes from one party than the other. And guess which party came to power.

 

What documentary

 

[Guest Fktf]

1 minute ago, foxile5 said:

 

What documentary

 

Think it was called the big hack or the great hack. It was tracked the setup of cambridge analytica.

 

All the stuff around the main female protagonist is a bit too 'redemptiony' for my taste, but the stories of how they harvest data of Facebook (answer these personality  questions to find out your Harry Potter house), and quite how manipulative things are was interesting.

[foxile5]

3 minutes ago, Fktf said:

Think it was called the big hack or the great hack. It was tracked the setup of cambridge analytica.

 

All the stuff around the main female protagonist is a bit too 'redemptiony' for my taste, but the stories of how they harvest data of Facebook (answer these personality  questions to find out your Harry Potter house), and quite how manipulative things are was interesting.

I've just stuck it on. 

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, foxile5 said:

If you really fifteen minutes of rip-roaring, jaw dropping, hilarious idiocy watch this speech : 

 

 

I have not laughed so hard in my life at this strange word soup from Biden. I swear his brain must be 80% mush. Even manages a strange, potentially racist, swipe at African American children. 

 

I watched that and just don't get your analysis. 

 

Yes, it's folksy, populist stuff - and unconventional, rambling informally like that. You could see that as a cynical act.

But it seemed anything but "mush brain" stuff. It seemed quite shrewd and effective at presenting himself as a "man of the people", "in touch with black people in America" etc.

His audience seemed to like him as far as you could tell (adults, I'm sure the kids just wanted him to stop gassing on so they could get into the pool).

[foxile5]

12 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I watched that and just don't get your analysis. 

 

Yes, it's folksy, populist stuff - and unconventional, rambling informally like that. You could see that as a cynical act.

But it seemed anything but "mush brain" stuff. It seemed quite shrewd and effective at presenting himself as a "man of the people", "in touch with black people in America" etc.

His audience seemed to like him as far as you could tell (adults, I'm sure the kids just wanted him to stop gassing on so they could get into the pool).

You found nothing untoward about him talking about kids stroking his golden leg hair in the pool, calling them roaches, and threatening to beat someone with a chain untoward? 

 

This is a man vying for the highest office in the land boasting about racially taunting a gangster and preparing to beat him with a chain, a story that bears no relevance to anything at all other than it happened in the same place they currently are. 

 

He's so in touch with black America he called the small children roaches. 

 

I dunno, you're entitled to you view, but it's difficult for me to see anything that isn't nonesense in this. 

I 

[leicsmac]

Personally I think Warren would have been a better choice and the whole "she's a cop" thing doesn't make this stellar timing for bringing her to the fore...but I've been predisposed to like Harris since she became well-known politically. She seems willing to change her policy viewpoints when evidence presents itself, and she can certainly dish it out (Trumps reaction to her pick is very telling). Not the best choice, but hardly doomsday for the Dems, either.

 

In any case, I doubt her pick, or whatever else pick, will have much of an effect on the overall numbers come election day.