The Politics Thread 2020

[Voll Blau]

Just now, Strokes said:

Yes I can understand why nationally nobody gave a monkeys until recently but Leicester is the only city in lockdown, we are the focal point of the subject now and yet the conversation is still always about Cummings. Strange that.

You must have missed the bit where I said Soulsby should have considered his position, but I don't think you're ever going to be convinced people should be more arsed about what the UK Government does over what the Mayor of Leicester does. All I'll say is switch their rosettes around (Cummings isn't a Tory member or anything but whatever) and I'd still feel the same about both incidents.

[LiberalFox]

[Tuna]

 

[StanSP]

17 hours ago, Tuna said:

 

Apparently it's IDS.

[Desabafar]

is scotland independence inevitable now

[Leicester_Loyal]

9 hours ago, Desabafar said:

is scotland independence inevitable now

Hopefully

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Hopefully

Yep, I’d never expect to keep an unhappy electorate in a Union they didn’t want to be in. Good luck to them if they do.

Edited 3 August 2020 by Strokes

[Kopfkino]

11 hours ago, Desabafar said:

is scotland independence inevitable now

I think Brexit made it so, not because it pissed the Scots off but because it showed you don't have to win an argument with rationale. Last time they actually tried to make it sound like a good, viable option and it didn't quite come to pass. Now all they need to do is force everyone to watch Braveheart 24/7 and its sealed. 

 

Whenever I go to Scotland, I do always feel they should go independent, power needs to return closer to its people. Outside of Edinburgh and the absolute natural beauty that is the Highlands, its such a miserable place and I'd hope they might cheer the place up a bit. 

 

The latest feather in Sturgeon's cap is the amount Lenin's useful idiots South of the border that, in the name of trashing Boris and the cons, blow smoke up her arse over Covid. The idolisation of Sturgeon in some quarters down here is a strange phenomena, her approach to politics isn't vastly dissimilar to Farage's, she's just not a weird man. 

 

Does anyone in England care about unionism anymore? Nobody in the last x amount of years has bothered to challenge the SNP on their record of governance, all we hear down south about the SNP is Sturgeon's daily link to a news story and why that means Scotland needs independence. 

No PM wants to be in charge when it happens but otherwise I don't think many will care if they **** off. I relish it, how they actually overcome the myriad of issues will be interesting. 

 

 

Edited 3 August 2020 by Kopfkino

[LiberalFox]

I'll be really sad when Scotland goes independent but think it is now an inevitability. 

 

It isn't just the popularity north of the border but the ambivalence from both left and right in England. 

 

The Conservatives could have potentially saved the union if they hadn't got behind Brexit and if they had really made use of Ruth Davidson, they will always attract a hard core of unionist support but I do not see them appealing beyond their base up there now.

 

 

 

[Kopfkino]

5 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

I'll be really sad when Scotland goes independent but think it is now an inevitability. 

 

It isn't just the popularity north of the border but the ambivalence from both left and right in England. 

 

The Conservatives could have potentially saved the union if they hadn't got behind Brexit and if they had really made use of Ruth Davidson, they will always attract a hard core of unionist support but I do not see them appealing beyond their base up there now.

 

 

 

 

Either you're completely misremembering that the Conservatives didn't get behind Brexit prior to the referendum given most of the cabinet and the vast majority of the parliamentary party campaigned for Remain. Or you think the party should have pandered to the population of Scotland and ignored the majority vote in England and Wales which would be a really weird way of defending the union. 

[LiberalFox]

20 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

Either you're completely misremembering that the Conservatives didn't get behind Brexit prior to the referendum given most of the cabinet and the vast majority of the parliamentary party campaigned for Remain. Or you think the party should have pandered to the population of Scotland and ignored the majority vote in England and Wales which would be a really weird way of defending the union. 

That's the point though, there is no union. Scotland does not want to leave the EU. England and Wales does. England and Wales(combined) have a greater population than Scotland and since the UK is centralised in its decision making, Scotland is forced to leave the EU. A union implies far greater autonomy in decision making yet on one of the biggest political issues of our time it has as much autonomy as any other village in England. In 2014 there was a weak argument for full independence yet "YES" came far closer to winning than expected. Now I see a very strong case for independence and cannot see how it would not succeed.  

[Strokes]

16 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

That's the point though, there is no union. Scotland does not want to leave the EU. England and Wales does. England and Wales(combined) have a greater population than Scotland and since the UK is centralised in its decision making, Scotland is forced to leave the EU. A union implies far greater autonomy in decision making yet on one of the biggest political issues of our time it has as much autonomy as any other village in England. In 2014 there was a weak argument for full independence yet "YES" came far closer to winning than expected. Now I see a very strong case for independence and cannot see how it would not succeed.  

It’s ironic though, had they voted yes in 2014 (which Sturgeon was promoting) they would have subsequently left the EU.

[bovril]

2 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

I think Brexit made it so, not because it pissed the Scots off but because it showed you don't have to win an argument with rationale. Last time they actually tried to make it sound like a good, viable option and it didn't quite come to pass. Now all they need to do is force everyone to watch Braveheart 24/7 and its sealed. 

 

I think more specifically it's made the (very good) arguments against Scottish independence increasingly difficult as they are often very similar or the same as arguments against Brexit. 

[Kopfkino]

42 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

That's the point though, there is no union. Scotland does not want to leave the EU. England and Wales does. England and Wales(combined) have a greater population than Scotland and since the UK is centralised in its decision making, Scotland is forced to leave the EU. A union implies far greater autonomy in decision making yet on one of the biggest political issues of our time it has as much autonomy as any other village in England. In 2014 there was a weak argument for full independence yet "YES" came far closer to winning than expected. Now I see a very strong case for independence and cannot see how it would not succeed.  

 

So how were the Conservatives supposed to defend the union? They either embraced Brexit as that was what the majority of the voting public in the union voted for, or they rejected Brexit just to appease the Scots. 

 

Or are you suggesting the Scots should have been allowed to remain in the EU? Which again, sticking a border up between the two, would be a strange way of saving the union. 

 

Its fine to think the union is dead, it doesn't really function as a union, I'm just not really what you expected the Conservative party to do to save the union? 

Edited 3 August 2020 by Kopfkino

[Kopfkino]

12 minutes ago, bovril said:

I think more specifically it's made the (very good) arguments against Scottish independence increasingly difficult as they are often very similar or the same as arguments against Brexit. 

 

Yes, there's a huge chunk of nuanced difference but the political reality of simplification means its all essentially the same and the messengers will sound like giant hypocrites. 

 

Brexit should make Scottish independence less likely but that's not how emotion works

[bovril]

1 minute ago, Kopfkino said:

 

So how were the Conservatives supposed to defend the union? They either embraced Brexit as that was what the majority of the voting public in the union voted for, or they rejected Brexit just to appease the Scots. 

 

Or are you suggesting the Scots should have been allowed to remain in the EU? Which again, sticking a border up between the two, would be a strange way of saving the union. 

 

Its fine to think the union is dead, it doesn't really function as a union, I'm just not really what you expected the Conservative party to do to save the union? 

As has been said a million times Brexit didn't mean anything specific in 2016, it didn't necessarily mean leaving the S.M. It's perfectly feasible that the Conservatives could've delivered a softer Brexit, performed better on Coronavirus and Scottish independence would still seem a long way off. I don't particularly support the SNP, but it's understandable that the performance of the government over the last 4 years has been a big factor in their wanting independence. 

[Kopfkino]

15 minutes ago, bovril said:

As has been said a million times Brexit didn't mean anything specific in 2016, it didn't necessarily mean leaving the S.M. It's perfectly feasible that the Conservatives could've delivered a softer Brexit, performed better on Coronavirus and Scottish independence would still seem a long way off. I don't particularly support the SNP, but it's understandable that the performance of the government over the last 4 years has been a big factor in their wanting independence. 

 

He didn't say anything about them embracing a softer Brexit, he said they could have saved the union by not embracing Brexit. Or maybe its a tacit admission that a soft Brexit isn't really Brexit? 

 

I've not said that I don't understand the reason for a swing to independence, and I've said before that Brexit is a constitutional change forced upon them so they should get another vote. I think it's fanciful to believe that staying in the single market would have dampened sentiment. In fact staying in the single market probably makes independence even more likely as it solves a lot of the problems of independence, assuming Scotland were admitted to the EU swiftly. 

[Stadt]

3 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

I think Brexit made it so, not because it pissed the Scots off but because it showed you don't have to win an argument with rationale. Last time they actually tried to make it sound like a good, viable option and it didn't quite come to pass. Now all they need to do is force everyone to watch Braveheart 24/7 and its sealed. 

 

Whenever I go to Scotland, I do always feel they should go independent, power needs to return closer to its people. Outside of Edinburgh and the absolute natural beauty that is the Highlands, its such a miserable place and I'd hope they might cheer the place up a bit. 

 

The latest feather in Sturgeon's cap is the amount Lenin's useful idiots South of the border that, in the name of trashing Boris and the cons, blow smoke up her arse over Covid. The idolisation of Sturgeon in some quarters down here is a strange phenomena, her approach to politics isn't vastly dissimilar to Farage's, she's just not a weird man. 

 

Does anyone in England care about unionism anymore? Nobody in the last x amount of years has bothered to challenge the SNP on their record of governance, all we hear down south about the SNP is Sturgeon's daily link to a news story and why that means Scotland needs independence. 

No PM wants to be in charge when it happens but otherwise I don't think many will care if they **** off. I relish it, how they actually overcome the myriad of issues will be interesting. 

 

 

So many of the independence arguments are in bad faith. It’d be more authentic if most independent advocates just admitted “because we want to” 

[Nalis]

Still think a decent percentage of people vote SNP to give Scotland a greater voice in Westminster rather than votimg for them for an independent Scotland. 

[fuchsntf]

On 31/07/2020 at 15:42, Strokes said:

Yes I can understand why nationally nobody gave a monkeys until recently but Leicester is the only city in lockdown, we are the focal point of the subject now and yet the conversation is still always about Cummings. Strange that.

If will always be The high point...he is the brain(advisor) to HM.UK Govt..Prime minister...

Nothing strange...!!

This discussion has nothing to do with Political Left or right.....But what/is was right or wrong...Then confounded again by Making Another wrong descision.

Political Point Scoring has no place....whether Law was passed or not...It was criminal....!!!

[murphy]

15 hours ago, Desabafar said:

is scotland independence inevitable now

This probably deserves a thread of it's own.

 

I think the fact that they have turned down full fiscal control shows that they are not convinced by their own argument.  I really don't know how they will pay the bills.  In the last vote it was basically down to North Sea oil to be the golden goose and afterwards oil prices promptly halved.  What would they do during this covid crisis without the deep pockets of the British taxpayer standing behind them?

 

I think it probably is inevitable but why they want to swap one union which they like to portray as some kind of oppression for another union where they will have an even smaller voice seems a little strange.

 

The one thing that saddens ,me is that there is just no love for the union north of the border.  The argument pro union has always been about pounds, shillings and pence.  No one ever talks about 300 years of shared history, sacrifice and achievements.

 

 

[Stadt]

13 minutes ago, murphy said:

This probably deserves a thread of it's own.

 

I think the fact that they have turned down full fiscal control shows that they are not convinced by their own argument.  I really don't know how they will pay the bills.  In the last vote it was basically down to North Sea oil to be the golden goose and afterwards oil prices promptly halved.  What would they do during this covid crisis without the deep pockets of the British taxpayer standing behind them?

 

I think it probably is inevitable but why they want to swap one union which they like to portray as some kind of oppression for another union where they will have an even smaller voice seems a little strange.

 

The one thing that saddens ,me is that there is just no love for the union north of the border.  The argument pro union has always been about pounds, shillings and pence.  No one ever talks about 300 years of shared history, sacrifice and achievements.

 

 

Scottish unionists in my experience (admittedly just from Twitter) are pretty rational but aren’t politically active. Partly because a lot of any reasonable discourse is shouted down by nationalists, “you must be English” etc etc. Could you imagine trying to argue against fierce yes voters? The majority I’ve seen are more rabid than any ardent remain or leave voters.

 

I don’t think I’d be any lover of Westminster if I was Scottish but I’d like to think I’d begrudgingly accept the realities of the Union.

[Jon the Hat]

Emotion over common sense.  The irony of wanting to leave the Union to rejoin a bigger union.  Nutters.  Let the EU fund them I say.  I would never want to see any kind of travel or work restrictions for the Scots though, same deal as the Irish.

[murphy]

24 minutes ago, Stadt said:

Scottish unionists in my experience (admittedly just from Twitter) are pretty rational but aren’t politically active. Partly because a lot of any reasonable discourse is shouted down by nationalists, “you must be English” etc etc. Could you imagine trying to argue against fierce yes voters? The majority I’ve seen are more rabid than any ardent remain or leave voters.

 

I don’t think I’d be any lover of Westminster if I was Scottish but I’d like to think I’d begrudgingly accept the realities of the Union.

I don't see why not.  They have their own devolved government and representation at Westminster.  They have their Barnett formula, their free prescriptions and free university places and they have their convenient 'get out of jail free card' for anything that goes wrong.  Just blame it on Westminster.  And they get their bills paid.

 

It would be interesting to see how they get on with independence but i don't trust our politicians to be firm enough to refuse a bail out when they find the realities more uncomfortable than they thought.

 

I would like to hear a properly costed, rational argument in favour.

 

 

[bovril]

8 minutes ago, murphy said:

I don't see why not.  They have their own devolved government and representation at Westminster.  They have their Barnett formula, their free prescriptions and free university places and they have their convenient 'get out of jail free card' for anything that goes wrong.  Just blame it on Westminster.  And they get their bills paid.

 

But again, this is reminiscent of Brexit where we had a pretty sweet deal and the perfect scapegoat but gave it up for more sovereignty. The arguments don't work like they used to.

 

It'll be a mess, but ultimately if one country in a union is moving in a different direction politically to others in the union then it will eventually have to leave. Same with the UK and the EU. The sad irony is that both the UK and Scotland have played a big part in shaping the unions they are now trying to leave.