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Leicester_Loyal

The Politics Thread 2020

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1 hour ago, Strokes said:

I don’t think even they really believe it. Amazing none of these NHS warriors were shouting when Blair and Brown were signing PFI contracts (some of which are still being paid) like they were going out of fashion.
Or for every trade deal the EU signed us up too that failed to ring fence it.

 

Yeah I don't get it, well I do cos it's little minions playing politics who whinge when when the opposite side play politics.

 

But yeah the exclusion of ISDS in the clause would most likely prevent the UK from signing up to CETA if we'd remained in the EU and thus also prevent us from trying to roll that deal over once we leave. Fair play people up in arms who think we should just not bother with trade agreements either but the rest seem to be suffering from cakeism. It makes absolutely zero sense to prevent foreign companies providing services for the NHS.

 

Why is it okay to have private UK pharmacies provide dispensing services but not for a US company to provide a radiography service? 

 

I also don't get why we want to prohibit the NHS selling data. If the NHS was a tech startup we'd call it a data company that happens to provide healthcare, the income that the NHS could generate from its data is huge. 

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23 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

This is low key one of the most Tory things I think you've ever posted. 

 

I particularly like the line that implies its not a problem because you can afford better quality meat. I like that, Jon, nice one. 

 

Classic selfish Tory outlook. 

 

Christ alive. 

lol

Do you think the more expensive meat gets cheaper if we don’t import chlorinated chicken? We can all afford non chlorinated chicken can’t we?

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2 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

Yeah I don't get it, well I do cos it's little minions playing politics who whinge when when the opposite side play politics.

 

But yeah the exclusion of ISDS in the clause would most likely prevent the UK from signing up to CETA if we'd remained in the EU and thus also prevent us from trying to roll that deal over once we leave. Fair play people up in arms who think we should just not bother with trade agreements either but the rest seem to be suffering from cakeism. It makes absolutely zero sense to prevent foreign companies providing services for the NHS.

 

Why is it okay to have private UK pharmacies provide dispensing services but not for a US company to provide a radiography service? 

 

I also don't get why we want to prohibit the NHS selling data. If the NHS was a tech startup we'd call it a data company that happens to provide healthcare, the income that the NHS could generate from its data is huge. 

It’s either ignorance, stupidity or malice. I lean towards the latter disguised as one of the other two to be honest.

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1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

This is low key one of the most Tory things I think you've ever posted. 

I particularly like the line that implies its not a problem because you can afford better quality meat. I like that, Jon, nice one. 

Classic selfish Tory outlook. 

Christ alive. 

Well at the moment you can buy a kilo of bone in chicken thighs for less than £2; by far the cheapest meat dinner for a family of 4, and generally I would buy the own label next one up, rather than the cheapest, as a little over £3, they are usually bigger.  If that makes me some kind of well off tory, then you go for it.

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3 hours ago, Strokes said:

The Anti Americanism from EU fanboys is nothing short of xenophobia.

I think there is a little confusion between criticism of the current American administration and general attitudes and criticism of the country and people as a whole here.

 

Considering that right now there is basically an equivalent of the Stasi (secret police in unmarked vehicles with seeming carte blanche to bundle who they want into those vehicles) being directed by this current administration in some American cities with more on the way, among other things, I'd think it's safe to say that the former is probably justified and the latter is most likely not. Of course, given that quite a few people have conflated the two before, the confusion is rather understandable.

 

On the topic itself, there are some aspects of the US governance model that might be worth following, and many that aren't - healthcare certainly belongs in the second category, as Jon attests. I understand that going from some US companies offering services to the NHS >>>>> no longer free at point of use for the most vulnerable or anyone else might seem like a slippery slope fallacy and would "never happen", but given the interest in profit over health outcomes over there perhaps it's better not to set out down that slope at all unless absolutely necessary?

 

(Also I think this has been talked about before back in the mists of time...I distinctly remember being called xenophobic because I was of the opinion that US healthcare companies are less caring about those they cater to than companies in other places. Could well be right, but also pretty sure it's accurate, given the evidence. :D )

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2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I think there is a little confusion between criticism of the current American administration and general attitudes and criticism of the country and people as a whole here.

 

Considering that right now there is basically an equivalent of the Stasi (secret police in unmarked vehicles with seeming carte blanche to bundle who they want into those vehicles) being directed by this current administration in some American cities with more on the way, among other things, I'd think it's safe to say that the former is probably justified and the latter is most likely not. Of course, given that quite a few people have conflated the two before, the confusion is rather understandable.

 

On the topic itself, there are some aspects of the US governance model that might be worth following, and many that aren't - healthcare certainly belongs in the second category, as Jon attests. I understand that going from some US companies offering services to the NHS >>>>> no longer free at point of use for the most vulnerable or anyone else might seem like a slippery slope fallacy and would "never happen", but given the interest in profit over health outcomes over there perhaps it's better not to set out down that slope at all unless absolutely necessary?

 

(Also I think this has been talked about before back in the mists of time...I distinctly remember being called xenophobic because I was of the opinion that US healthcare companies are less caring about those they cater to than companies in other places. Could well be right, but also pretty sure it's accurate, given the evidence. :D )

Don't all police forces use unmarked vehicles the thing about marked vehicles is people up to no good run away from them. strange that you use an example of a SOCIALIST/ COMMUNIST POLICE FORCE and say the tactics are being used by the right. the left don't want a wall to keep people out of the USA yet the extreme left as history has shown needs walls to keep people in.  

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23 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I think there is a little confusion between criticism of the current American administration and general attitudes and criticism of the country and people as a whole here.

 

Considering that right now there is basically an equivalent of the Stasi (secret police in unmarked vehicles with seeming carte blanche to bundle who they want into those vehicles) being directed by this current administration in some American cities with more on the way, among other things, I'd think it's safe to say that the former is probably justified and the latter is most likely not. Of course, given that quite a few people have conflated the two before, the confusion is rather understandable.

 

On the topic itself, there are some aspects of the US governance model that might be worth following, and many that aren't - healthcare certainly belongs in the second category, as Jon attests. I understand that going from some US companies offering services to the NHS >>>>> no longer free at point of use for the most vulnerable or anyone else might seem like a slippery slope fallacy and would "never happen", but given the interest in profit over health outcomes over there perhaps it's better not to set out down that slope at all unless absolutely necessary?

 

(Also I think this has been talked about before back in the mists of time...I distinctly remember being called xenophobic because I was of the opinion that US healthcare companies are less caring about those they cater to than companies in other places. Could well be right, but also pretty sure it's accurate, given the evidence. :D )

Na not having that, anti Americanism was rampant long before trump and his cronies were at the helm.
By allowing American companies access to bid for NHS contracts is only the same as allowing European ones do it, which you know already happens. Signing a trade deal does not mean we are adopting a new health policy. 

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2 hours ago, twoleftfeet said:

Don't all police forces use unmarked vehicles the thing about marked vehicles is people up to no good run away from them. strange that you use an example of a SOCIALIST/ COMMUNIST POLICE FORCE and say the tactics are being used by the right. the left don't want a wall to keep people out of the USA yet the extreme left as history has shown needs walls to keep people in.  

Police use unmarked vehicles, but have you noticed that once the chase begins/arrest is about to be made, the lights always come on/sirens blare and the police, one way or another, clearly identify themselves to the people they are looking for, if only at the last minute? As far as I can tell, this new goon squad is not doing that, when doing it is, I believe, a requirement in due process.

 

WRT "people up to no good run away from them", given the highly publicised track record of some US fuzz of subjecting innocent parties to problems up to and including violent death, I'd say that it would be good practice that anyone with half a brain would put as much distance between themselves and the police as possible.

 

My use of the Stasi was very deliberate, to show that this move shows that the brand of right-wing authoritarianism that Trump espouses and the left-wing type that the USSR did in the past and China does now are actually rather alike and are equally reprehensible. Left or right doesn't come into this one, for me - a free country shouldn't have people being pulled off the streets by goons, whoever is in charge.

 

I hope that clarifies matters. I'd be curious to know more about whether you think what Trump is doing out there now is justified, and if so, why.

 

2 hours ago, Strokes said:

Na not having that, anti Americanism was rampant long before trump and his cronies were at the helm.
By allowing American companies access to bid for NHS contracts is only the same as allowing European ones do it, which you know already happens. Signing a trade deal does not mean we are adopting a new health policy. 

I think it started with Bush and his penchant for terrible misguided Middle Eastern Holidays, but I see the point.

 

I don't think European and American companies bidding for contracts is the same - I stand by my assertion that by and large US companies are more mercenary and amoral when it comes to profit v health outcomes and I think the outcomes of the system in which they have control bears that out.

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13 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

What people’s thoughts on the Tory Party receiving £1.7 million from a Russian socialite? 

As I understand it technically nothing is wrong, all declared donations from a British citizen.  Also you could say plenty of Russians live in the UK who are no friend to the Putin Regime.  That said in light of the Russia report and the apparent failure to do anything useful to counter Putins agenda by successive governments since Cameron, it's not a great look is it?

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22 hours ago, Strokes said:

Na not having that, anti Americanism was rampant long before trump and his cronies were at the helm.
By allowing American companies access to bid for NHS contracts is only the same as allowing European ones do it, which you know already happens. Signing a trade deal does not mean we are adopting a new health policy. 

America=bad, Europe=good. The beauty of reductivism. 

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5 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

America=bad, Europe=good. The beauty of reductivism. 

...is it the assertion about US health-care companies that's amusing, Kopf? :D

 

Perhaps such generalisations are a bit naughty of me.

 

The bit about the current spate of goon squads in Portland and soon elsewhere is entirely serious and salient, and if there's an argument against those points I'd be happy to hear it.

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9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

...is it the assertion about US health-care companies that's amusing, Kopf? :D

 

Perhaps such generalisations are a bit naughty of me.

 

The bit about the current spate of goon squads in Portland and soon elsewhere is entirely serious and salient, and if there's an argument against those points I'd be happy to hear it.

5 weeks of rioting I believe. protecting Federal buildings from the extreme left carried out by a right wing National government while the local government run by the left stands by and watches. It depends what feeds news you read. As we have seen you cant rely on the media for the truth I would say any more but it may well have always been the case. it comes down to view point Banksy painting on a wall = art, local lad from the council estate = vandalism.   A cynic might say would it have been allowed to carry on and escalate to this level if this had not been an election year. 

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29 minutes ago, twoleftfeet said:

5 weeks of rioting I believe. protecting Federal buildings from the extreme left carried out by a right wing National government while the local government run by the left stands by and watches. It depends what feeds news you read. As we have seen you cant rely on the media for the truth I would say any more but it may well have always been the case. it comes down to view point Banksy painting on a wall = art, local lad from the council estate = vandalism.   A cynic might say would it have been allowed to carry on and escalate to this level if this had not been an election year. 

Firstly, thanks for the response.

 

I said this before but I'll say it again here - the problem here isn't left or right, but the blatant violations of due process being carried out by these national government goons through failure to identify themselves to suspects even when making arrests and blatant lack of arrest procedure. The idea that an unmarked hire car can pull up and a half dozen green G-men in camo can pop out, grab someone off the street with nary a word and bundle them into that car - even if that person is themselves causing a crime - is absolute anathema to what the US is supposed to stand for (First Amendment and all that).

 

And, lest we forget, it was other violations of due process, that resulted in the deaths of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor and many many more, that are the reason all this brouhaha began in the first place.

 

If people think such authoritarian measures are justified, then fair play - but then let's not pretend that at the present time the USA (or at least some parts thereof) is the Land of the Free, if indeed it ever was.

 

It's absolutely probable that this is being used as a political football by both sides, but if Trump actually was more clued up about winning that game of football he wouldn't have abandoned due process and make himself look even more like the authoritarians elsewhere he alternately rails against and cosies up to.

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I see the section of the Labour left has clearly lost the notion that sometimes you might believe in your mind you are right but you have to back down, possess the bollocks and the sensibility that you are deemed wrong by public opinion.
 

Accept it, move on and see that a collection of people started to repair the damage. 

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5 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

I see the section of the Labour left has clearly lost the notion that sometimes you might believe in your mind you are right but you have to back down, possess the bollocks and the sensibility that you are deemed wrong by public opinion.
 

Accept it, move on and see that a collection of people started to repair the damage. 

 

It's absolutely mental. I'd suggest the folks banging on about how he should still be in charge probably haven't actually been affected a great deal by the past decade...

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6 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

I see the section of the Labour left has clearly lost the notion that sometimes you might believe in your mind you are right but you have to back down, possess the bollocks and the sensibility that you are deemed wrong by public opinion.
 

Accept it, move on and see that a collection of people started to repair the damage. 

They don't want the damage to be repaired, politically they don't care if Labour are in opposition provided they can take the moral high ground in their warped world. 

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On 21/07/2020 at 12:33, Finnegan said:

 

This is low key one of the most Tory things I think you've ever posted. 

 

I particularly like the line that implies its not a problem because you can afford better quality meat. I like that, Jon, nice one. 

 

Classic selfish Tory outlook. 

 

Christ alive. 

So it took Kentucky Fried chicken,to make you realise your path to Christ...

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