The Politics Thread 2020

[UpTheLeagueFox]

12 minutes ago, Spudulike said:

What's all this gloved fist in the air thing? What does that mean? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Olympics_Black_Power_salute

[fuchsntf]

1 hour ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8509835/Two-thirds-Britons-Boris-Johnsons-refusal-knee.html

What find Crude und quite pathetic...Ja the Police Commission "Telling"  their Work Force they Shoulder take the knee....

Just proves the insitutionalised racism that exsists....Please Don t Post any excuses...There isnt any...!!!!

 

Everybody,every individual should be Left to make their own choice, in or out of  uniform,or while representing Any organisation....

 

[Dahnsouff]

He should not do it (take the knee), its connotations are now murky at best, and despite the unquestionable validity of the movements original aims, the gesture is now just that, a gesture, it is no way of any assistance to the BLM movement any longer, it has now become a fashion statement, its meaning long since lost in the sickening narcissism of the social media world .

I was actually disgusted when Keir Starmer (Whom I like) took the knee in such a flagrantly popularist move, act like a steadfast politician, and not a click bait president.

Its time to make actions with regards to BLM and no more empty gestures, and certainly no more twitter driven dog sh*te.

rant over

 

[Spudulike]

Keir Starmer and Labour have been desperately distancing themselves from BLM since the spat about defunding the police. Especially after they called him a cop in an expensive suit. 

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

He should not do it (take the knee), its connotations are now murky at best, and despite the unquestionable validity of the movements original aims, the gesture is now just that, a gesture, it is no way of any assistance to the BLM movement any longer, it has now become a fashion statement, its meaning long since lost in the sickening narcissism of the social media world .

I was actually disgusted when Keir Starmer (Whom I like) took the knee in such a flagrantly popularist move, act like a steadfast politician, and not a click bait president.

Its time to make actions with regards to BLM and no more empty gestures, and certainly no more twitter driven dog sh*te.

rant over

 

If that is true (that it has no meaning), then there's no reason for not doing it.

 

Certainly agree that actions matter more than gestures and that there's a lot of distraction tactics going on, but I'm not sure how much of solid action we've seen from Boris wrt the original aims of the BLM movement either.

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

If that is true (that it has no meaning), then there's no reason for not doing it.

Do not understand that even slightly as there are plenty of reasons all around the world for treating this movement with the gravitas it deserves, and wrapping it up inside a gesture has now become counter productive to its core aims.

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Do not understand that even slightly as there are plenty of reasons all around the world for treating this movement with the gravitas it deserves, and wrapping it up inside a gesture has now become counter productive to its core aims.

Perhaps this is overly semantic, but hang on - does it have no meaning positive or negative, merely cosmetic, as you implied in the penultimate post or does it have distraction from the original aims as you implied in this latest one?

 

If it's the former (which was the basis of my reply) then I think my point stands. If it's the latter and you've clarified your stance, then I do see where you're coming from as the discussion about it can well be distracting, but I don't see how making such a gesture can be harmful when coupled with political action to fulfil the initial objectives of the BLM movement (goes without saying that the second part of that is by far the most important part).

Edited 10 July 2020 by leicsmac

[fuchsntf]

4 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

He should not do it (take the knee), its connotations are now murky at best, and despite the unquestionable validity of the movements original aims, the gesture is now just that, a gesture, it is no way of any assistance to the BLM movement any longer, it has now become a fashion statement, its meaning long since lost in the sickening narcissism of the social media world .

I was actually disgusted when Keir Starmer (Whom I like) took the knee in such a flagrantly popularist move, act like a steadfast politician, and not a click bait president.

Its time to make actions with regards to BLM and no more empty gestures, and certainly no more twitter driven dog sh*te.

rant over

 

Actually a Good Rant..

TTK, is becoming an embarrasing media Agenda....Any politician,celeb,trying to point score,are also Missig the point....

 

Though I would agree with the gesture to persevere until we feel govts & organisations,are seen to Take the First initial but Major changes & steps

that lead to a different Chain of thought throughout society,at least through Europe..

We cant initially influence USA & the wider world...But if Europe hardens the Case & resolve,then USA will grasp ,

there is an important Historical wind of change closing through the lands,until it does we shouldnt even attempt to carry on claiming ourselves

to be Civilised...or a civilised society....

[Dahnsouff]

6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Perhaps this is overly semantic, but hang on - does it have no meaning positive or negative, merely cosmetic, as you implied in the penultimate post or does it have distraction from the original aims as you implied in this latest one?

Stop it. Conjunction headache 

 

6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

If it's the former (which was the basis of my reply) then I think my point stands. If it's the latter and you've clarified your stance, then I do see where you're coming from as the discussion about it can well be distracting, but I don't see how making such a gesture can be harmful when coupled with political action to fulfil the initial objectives of the BLM movement (goes without saying that the second part of that is by far the most important part).

It was my intention to imply that TTK (Trademark @fuchsntf) is simply distracting from the underlying issue, and in doing so, is detracting from the cause and its chance of success.

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

It was my intention to imply that TTK (Trademark @fuchsntf) is simply distracting from the underlying issue, and in doing so, is detracting from the cause and its chance of success.

Then that's fair enough. I can't be sure that I agree empirically, but I can see why someone would think that.

[Dahnsouff]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Then that's fair enough. I can't be sure that I agree empirically, but I can see why someone would think that.

Bloody scientists and their "method"  

[fuchsntf]

26 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Stop it. Conjunction headache 

 

It was my intention to imply that TTK (Trademark @fuchsntf) is simply distracting from the underlying issue, and in doing so, is detracting from the cause and its chance of success.

Don t you Think this gesture,is something that the movement can hang onto....?? 

A likely  timely reference gesture,to push forward & Not to Let go,  no matter if the Media/politicians/racists try to create off-subject,or snidey agendas even be used against itself to numb & dumb it down..!!

 

[Strokes]

4 hours ago, Finnaldo said:

Black Lives Matter is comparable to Nazi Germany?

There are a few parallel’s.

[yorkie1999]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

There are a few parallel’s.

Please explain, i'm genuinely interested.

[Guest]

[StanSP]

I don't get how BLM movement is similar to Nazi Germany.

 

On a very basic level, one wants equality for their own race amongst others, while the other wanted to ethnically cleanse and kill off a specific race...

[leicsmac]

3 hours ago, StanSP said:

I don't get how BLM movement is similar to Nazi Germany.

 

On a very basic level, one wants equality for their own race amongst others, while the other wanted to ethnically cleanse and kill off a specific race...

...I'm guessing there's supposed to be an argument about totalitarian restriction of freedom of expression as a similarity, because I'm not sure what other parallels can even be inferred, let alone directly stated?

 

Of course, if you're going to go that way there are better comparisons to use - Stalin's USSR, for instance. It would be equally tenuous, but at least the views of race and gender roles are similar and you wouldn't be comparing white supremacists with...well, not-white supremacists.

[WigstonWanderer]

10 hours ago, Dahnsouff said:

He should not do it (take the knee), its connotations are now murky at best, and despite the unquestionable validity of the movements original aims, the gesture is now just that, a gesture, it is no way of any assistance to the BLM movement any longer, it has now become a fashion statement, its meaning long since lost in the sickening narcissism of the social media world .

I was actually disgusted when Keir Starmer (Whom I like) took the knee in such a flagrantly popularist move, act like a steadfast politician, and not a click bait president.

Its time to make actions with regards to BLM and no more empty gestures, and certainly no more twitter driven dog sh*te.

rant over

 

It looked a powerful gesture when an athletic black American footballer did it, but somehow seems embarrassingly pathetic when a white guy in a suite does it.

Edited 11 July 2020 by WigstonWanderer

[Strokes]

9 hours ago, StanSP said:

I don't get how BLM movement is similar to Nazi Germany.

 

On a very basic level, one wants equality for their own race amongst others, while the other wanted to ethnically cleanse and kill off a specific race...

I never said it was wholly the same.

Its completely fine to want equality but I don’t believe it’s what the aim is. Race relations and tensions are worse, unless we all submit and take the knee?

If you don’t support them, then you are wholly racist! I’ve seen written here and few other places. So no criticism allowed? Cancel culture - book burning, the direction of the whole thing is alarming.

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I never said it was wholly the same.

Its completely fine to want equality but I don’t believe it’s what the aim is. Race relations and tensions are worse, unless we all submit and take the knee?

If you don’t support them, then you are wholly racist! I’ve seen written here and few other places. So no criticism allowed? Cancel culture - book burning, the direction of the whole thing is alarming.

May I ask why? I'm honestly curious.

[Strokes]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

May I ask why? I'm honestly curious.

Because of the fail to condemn divisive actions, the failure to recognise/acknowledge, this country is a better place for people of colour than USA. I think it’s intentionally divisive.

Every single debate or thought out response can get shut down by white privilege or similar. 
It’s either divisive or it’s out of control, and either way I certainly don’t want any leader of a country succumbing to this supposed gesture. Which is nothing more than a power trip.

[leicsmac]

Just now, Strokes said:

Because of the fail to condemn divisive actions, the failure to recognise/acknowledge, this country is a better place for people of colour than USA. I think it’s intentionally divisive.

Every single debate or thought out response can get shut down by white privilege or similar. 
It’s either divisive or it’s out of control, and either way I certainly don’t want any leader of a country succumbing to this supposed gesture. Which is nothing more than a power trip.

Thank you.

 

You'll get no disagreement from me that the message certainly has become obfuscated and there is a fair amount of difference in race relations between the UK and the US and that should be made a lot clearer. There's a lot that has been gotten wrong.

 

However, I think I'd stand by my arguments as per the discussion with Dahnsouff above, and I'd add that while I'm usually quite cynical about humans of any ethnicity and power, I'm not so cynical to think that every such movement purporting to push for equality is instead pushing for supremacy of their own "in-group" instead.

[Strokes]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Thank you.

 

You'll get no disagreement from me that the message certainly has become obfuscated and there is a fair amount of difference in race relations between the UK and the US and that should be made a lot clearer. There's a lot that has been gotten wrong.

 

However, I think I'd stand by my arguments as per the discussion with Dahnsouff above, and I'd add that while I'm usually quite cynical about humans of any ethnicity and power, I'm not so cynical to think that every such movement purporting to push for equality is instead pushing for supremacy of their own "in-group" instead.

I don’t necessarily think that it’s a black supremacy, I just think that submitting to this movement that’s got no central control, is incredibly dangerous. 
 

We’ve had this conversation before mac, but I get the need to smash the system in America. It has to be radical there. I 100% support the actions taken by black communities there because they are marginalised from top to bottom. Here, now, we seem to heading away from where we were but in the wrong direction. And I can’t help feeling something sinister is at play.

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I don’t necessarily think that it’s a black supremacy, I just think that submitting to this movement that’s got no central control, is incredibly dangerous. 
 

We’ve had this conversation before mac, but I get the need to smash the system in America. It has to be radical there. I 100% support the actions taken by black communities there because they are marginalised from top to bottom. Here, now, we seem to heading away from where we were but in the wrong direction. And I can’t help feeling something sinister is at play.

It certainly doesn't lend itself to predictability of outcome, does it? Which can very well be dangerous, it's true.

 

Can also understand the misgivings about the movement over in the UK - I guess I don't tend to focus on that as much as other people do and you do wonder if something is happening in the shadows, it would hardly be the last time that people who desire the status quo have managed to manipulate a movement from within and tear it to shreds, or even just watch it happen because of the personality clash that often occurs within such movements. Just hope that doesn't sound too tinfoil-hat.

 

Goes without saying that we absolutely agree on the state of play and necessity of the action Stateside, and as such that tends to be my main point of focus given that's where it started and that's where it's really needed.

[Strokes]

36 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

It certainly doesn't lend itself to predictability of outcome, does it? Which can very well be dangerous, it's true.

 

Can also understand the misgivings about the movement over in the UK - I guess I don't tend to focus on that as much as other people do and you do wonder if something is happening in the shadows, it would hardly be the last time that people who desire the status quo have managed to manipulate a movement from within and tear it to shreds, or even just watch it happen because of the personality clash that often occurs within such movements. Just hope that doesn't sound too tinfoil-hat.

 

Goes without saying that we absolutely agree on the state of play and necessity of the action Stateside, and as such that tends to be my main point of focus given that's where it started and that's where it's really needed.

Yeah, it’s very easy to get crossed wires when I’ve got boots in both camps and my own opinion is conflicted.