US Presidential Election 2020

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Mike Oxlong said:

Yes, aren’t they mostly tax matters ?

 

I’d like to think that he will be answerable for his role in the events of last week nonetheless 

I'd like that too, but unfortunately as Nixon proved, sometimes that doesn't happen.

 

As such, I'd be satisfied, if not happy, with the Al Capone route being taken instead if it was going to be successful.

[Jon the Hat]

4 minutes ago, Mike Oxlong said:

Yes, aren’t they mostly tax matters ?

 

I’d like to think that he will be answerable for his role in the events of last week nonetheless 

The only route for that is via the impeachment & senate trial.  This is overseen by the senior Supreme court justice.

[Buce]

 

Trump refusing to pay Giuliani's legal fees:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/14/trump-refusing-to-pay-rudy-giuliani-legal-fees-after-falling-out

 

If you lie down with dogs...

[Mike Oxlong]

1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said:

The only route for that is via the impeachment & senate trial.  This is overseen by the senior Supreme court justice.

That is only a political sanction though.  

 

He may be criminally responsible for his post election antics.  Whilst he can grant pardons for federal crimes the legal question, if he pardons himself, is whether the president has the power to do so (ie self pardon) 

 

The most obvious jurisdiction is federal law given the nature of any likely charges and the location of the (alleged) crimes. 

 

However, the his conduct arte likely to also be in breach of local laws even though Washington is not a state 

 

Regarding the Raffensperger phonecall I understand that he could potentially be charged under federal law  but also under Georgia state law

[Mike Oxlong]

14 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I'd like that too, but unfortunately as Nixon proved, sometimes that doesn't happen.

 

As such, I'd be satisfied, if not happy, with the Al Capone route being taken instead if it was going to be successful.

Nixon was pardoned by Ford though not by a self pardon. 

 

Not sure why he wasn’t charged by DC 

 

The balance of legal thought appears to be that Trump cannot pardon himself but ultimately that will be a decision for Scotus. 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Mike Oxlong said:

Nixon was pardoned by Ford though not by a self pardon. 

 

Not sure why he wasn’t charged by DC 

 

The balance of legal thought appears to be that Trump cannot pardon himself but ultimately that will be a decision for Scotus. 

I guess we'll find out in due course.

 

Honestly, as long as he does end up behind bars and his supporters are neutralised then I'm not overly picky about the method, so long as it follows due process. The country and the world, and history, will know what he incited and what he did, whether he goes down for that particular thing or not.

[Jattdogg]

So, once Biden is sworn in do we rename this thread to "meltdown orange man" or close it and he can fook off forever?

[Dahnsouff]

9 minutes ago, Jattdogg said:

So, once Biden is sworn in do we rename this thread to "meltdown orange man" or close it and he can fook off forever?

Just change it to  Daft, Old, White Men and let it roll on...

[HighPeakFox]

2 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Trump refusing to pay Giuliani's legal fees:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/14/trump-refusing-to-pay-rudy-giuliani-legal-fees-after-falling-out

 

If you lie down with dogs...

It's not the first time, he has form for not paying for services rendered.

 

As for the Nixon/Ford thing, they were in the same party and Ford was as spineless as they come. Nixon had some rather unpleasant 'friends' and I expect Ford didn't fancy going the same way as one or two others. This situation is very different, coming as it does just before the other party is sworn in and the new administration is somewhat less than enamoured.

 

Gotta laugh at hypocritical and/or in-denial GOP members suggesting the Dems are somehow dividing the country by doing the right thing - pots and kettles, and then some.

[Master Fox]

 

[Buce]

12 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

No offence but isn’t it your duty, during a pandemic, to ensure you have your hand cream with you like it’s my duty to ensure I have a face mask with me?

I keep a fresh mask in my wallet and a few kicking about in my car. 
I HAVE forgotten from time to time. When I have I go back and get a mask before I go into the shop 

 

And to think once upon a time it would have been condoms.

 

Old age really sucks...

[Kopfkino]

16 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Allow me to clarify then: some people are saying (or at least inferring) that it's impossible for other tech companies to challenge the monopoly/cartel that the current tech companies have: the "censorship" argument directly infers that. I'm saying that it's difficult (as you give good reasons for) but certainly not impossible. Who would have predicted the rise of Twitter in the first place, for instance? Change in such markets often comes unexpectedly (to most) and also often suddenly.

 

That the current group of companies have a stranglehold on the market is a matter of record, as you say. But there are numerous ways by which that might change and I think that some of them can be driven, if they wanted, by those disaffected folks who think they are being "silenced". It's not like there isn't money for doing so in the right-wing (I use that term loosely), is it?

 

If it got to the case where free methods of instant communication really were being strangled to death with no recourse by these companies (like, for instance, in China) then I would fully expect and hope that government would step in and do their job with legislation because yes, it is a public good. I just don't think that we're there yet - or even close.

 

NB. You should know me well enough by now that political or any other form of self-interest has never been my guiding star and the only reason I might use it as a positive is if I know an action taken with it in mind it would benefit other people as much or more.

Tbh I thought I knew you well enough that I wouldn’t expect you to defend massive private companies, essentially utilities, using their TOS to do as they please. Fine if you’re operating in a competitive market, but not in strongly monopolistic or duopolistic markets, nor really when big tech ToS makes them, as a band, quite oligopolistic.

 

You’re espousing the classic Freedman argument that market forces solve the problem of monopoly.

I don’t want to go all Marxist here, but modern comms channels being wholly privately-owned, and pretty free from regulatory oversight, is not desirable.

 

Yes markets can evolve, sometimes unexpectedly and surprisingly. It’s not long ago that UK retail banks looked insurmountable but the rise of challenger banks gives hope that may not be the case, though a lot to be proven yet. But hanging your hat on the possibility that tech giants could come under the same pressure is super risky, given their demonstrated behaviour towards competition. The difference between them getting there and somebody challenging them is that they created this market, we don’t really know how competition plays out in these markets because the shift is largely incomparable to anything before, except in the fact they are now public utilities and public utilities are usually regulated differently to other businesses.

 

I’m not overly bothered by the free speech, 1st amendment type arguments. It’s a very anglicised way of thinking and a bit basic first-order thinking. But I am bothered by what the risks this highlights, whereby they regulate themselves without proper oversight from regulators under some sort of spectre of democracy. This is the Merkel argument and strikes at ensuring governments maintain full sovereignty over these firms.

 

 

[Wymsey]

https://amp.theguardian.com/film/2021/jan/14/macaulay-culkin-joins-calls-to-get-donald-trump-cameo-removed-from-home-alone-2

[urban.spaceman]

1 hour ago, Wymsey said:

https://amp.theguardian.com/film/2021/jan/14/macaulay-culkin-joins-calls-to-get-donald-trump-cameo-removed-from-home-alone-2

FFS they shouldn't remove it under any circumstances.

 

Just reshoot it with Christopher Plummer in the role instead.

[leicsmac]

7 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

Tbh I thought I knew you well enough that I wouldn’t expect you to defend massive private companies, essentially utilities, using their TOS to do as they please. Fine if you’re operating in a competitive market, but not in strongly monopolistic or duopolistic markets, nor really when big tech ToS makes them, as a band, quite oligopolistic.

 

You’re espousing the classic Freedman argument that market forces solve the problem of monopoly.

I don’t want to go all Marxist here, but modern comms channels being wholly privately-owned, and pretty free from regulatory oversight, is not desirable.

 

Yes markets can evolve, sometimes unexpectedly and surprisingly. It’s not long ago that UK retail banks looked insurmountable but the rise of challenger banks gives hope that may not be the case, though a lot to be proven yet. But hanging your hat on the possibility that tech giants could come under the same pressure is super risky, given their demonstrated behaviour towards competition. The difference between them getting there and somebody challenging them is that they created this market, we don’t really know how competition plays out in these markets because the shift is largely incomparable to anything before, except in the fact they are now public utilities and public utilities are usually regulated differently to other businesses.

 

I’m not overly bothered by the free speech, 1st amendment type arguments. It’s a very anglicised way of thinking and a bit basic first-order thinking. But I am bothered by what the risks this highlights, whereby they regulate themselves without proper oversight from regulators under some sort of spectre of democracy. This is the Merkel argument and strikes at ensuring governments maintain full sovereignty over these firms.

 

 

As always, you make a compelling argument.

 

I think we still disagree on the amount of control the current tech giants have over the future of the market, but I certainly could be wrong on that one. And if I am, I would fully agree and expect government to step in and regulate just as any public good requires.

 

TBH it's sort of the 1st Amendment bollocks argument that is patently untrue that I was targetting in my original post, so I'm glad we're somewhat in agreement there.

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55626148

 

We need a "Here's to You Mrs Robinson" arrest montage.

[Mike Oxlong]

There is some anger within the GOP to those House Representatives who voted with  the Democrats for impeachment 

 

The response below from a Wyoming constituent in relation to Liz Cheney illustrates just how warped some of the thinking in American politics is and what difficulties there will be in trying to bring about some level of healing/reunification 

 

Liz cheney is a traitor what she did was terrible stood with the democrats to convict our President without a trial no attorney present and in 7 hours....YOU know what goes around comes around ....Joe biden will be inpeached on january 21 by Majorie Green from georgia and I support her effect..He and Kamala started a fund and payed to get out rioters and looters all spring and summer from their peaceful protest that turned into deadly riots, they rioted burnt down cities burnt police cars, killed police officers and defunded our police....Nancy Pelosi has taken her power way too far....President Trump deserves our thanks as a nation for all he has done..Dear President Trump,

I want to take a minute to say thank you. Regardless of the outcome of this election you deserve my gratitude. Thank you for not plunging the US into another war. Thank you for walking through HELL and back for the American people. Thank you for doing it for free. Thank you for working through the night while my family was tucked safely in bed. Thank you for standing strong and staring adversity in the face. Thank you for keeping GOD in the country I love. Thank you for not backing down when the weight of the world was against you. Thank you for putting your family in the line of fire when you didn’t have to. Thank you for standing up for women. Thank you for not being a politician. Thank you for being raw and even sometimes too much. Thank you for standing up for the unborn. Thank you for caring about the little guy. Thank you for working harder than any president in my lifetime ever has. Thank you for your service to this country. You were part of some of the greatest days of my life. Thank you. Win or lose I am a fan. You have fulfilled every promise you have made to me and for that I am thankful. May GOD always bless you and your family.

From a grateful nation,

Thank you!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[That_Dude]

1 hour ago, Mike Oxlong said:

There is some anger within the GOP to those House Representatives who voted with  the Democrats for impeachment 

 

The response below from a Wyoming constituent in relation to Liz Cheney illustrates just how warped some of the thinking in American politics is and what difficulties there will be in trying to bring about some level of healing/reunification 

 

Liz cheney is a traitor what she did was terrible stood with the democrats to convict our President without a trial no attorney present and in 7 hours....YOU know what goes around comes around ....Joe biden will be inpeached on january 21 by Majorie Green from georgia and I support her effect..He and Kamala started a fund and payed to get out rioters and looters all spring and summer from their peaceful protest that turned into deadly riots, they rioted burnt down cities burnt police cars, killed police officers and defunded our police....Nancy Pelosi has taken her power way too far....President Trump deserves our thanks as a nation for all he has done..Dear President Trump,

I want to take a minute to say thank you. Regardless of the outcome of this election you deserve my gratitude. Thank you for not plunging the US into another war. Thank you for walking through HELL and back for the American people. Thank you for doing it for free. Thank you for working through the night while my family was tucked safely in bed. Thank you for standing strong and staring adversity in the face. Thank you for keeping GOD in the country I love. Thank you for not backing down when the weight of the world was against you. Thank you for putting your family in the line of fire when you didn’t have to. Thank you for standing up for women. Thank you for not being a politician. Thank you for being raw and even sometimes too much. Thank you for standing up for the unborn. Thank you for caring about the little guy. Thank you for working harder than any president in my lifetime ever has. Thank you for your service to this country. You were part of some of the greatest days of my life. Thank you. Win or lose I am a fan. You have fulfilled every promise you have made to me and for that I am thankful. May GOD always bless you and your family.

From a grateful nation,

Thank you!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

America is fecked.

[HighPeakFox]

There are now anecdotal reports of certain GOP Members of Congress refusing to go through the newly erected metal detectors because they want to enter the chamber armed. Some of the defence made of Trump/GOP position in the impeachement debate is truly mind-boggling too. Absolutely terrifying. 

[ealingfox]

13 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

There are now anecdotal reports of certain GOP Members of Congress refusing to go through the newly erected metal detectors because they want to enter the chamber armed. Some of the defence made of Trump/GOP position in the impeachement debate is truly mind-boggling too. Absolutely terrifying. 

 

Isn't that basically how Harvey Milk got killed?

[HighPeakFox]

49 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

Isn't that basically how Harvey Milk got killed?

I've just read up about him - thank you for making me aware.

[leicsmac]

The above attitudes displayed by Repub voters and members of Congress alike are why the whole idea of forging some kind of unity and "when they go low we go high" is wonderful in principle but rather difficult in practice.

 

The Dems of course should be ready to engage and work with those Repubs willing to budge some, but beyond that they also have to be prepared to politically neutralise those that won't, to prevent the harm they can (and will) do with the power they have.

[Guest SO1]

54 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

The above attitudes displayed by Repub voters and members of Congress alike are why the whole idea of forging some kind of unity and "when they go low we go high" is wonderful in principle but rather difficult in practice.

 

The Dems of course should be ready to engage and work with those Repubs willing to budge some, but beyond that they also have to be prepared to politically neutralise those that won't, to prevent the harm they can (and will) do with the power they have.

Welcome to the Thunderdome. Dems screw the Repubs, Repubs screw the Dems and on it goes. Nothing ever gets done for the rest of us. Talk is cheap.

[Guest SO1]

"Texit" coming to a state near you.

https://www.insider.com/a-texas-lawmaker-wants-texit-secession-on-the-ballot-2021-1

[Dahnsouff]

Just now, SO1 said:

"Texit" coming to a state near you.

https://www.insider.com/a-texas-lawmaker-wants-texit-secession-on-the-ballot-2021-1

Pfft. Crap name, Brexit is way better