Rodgers due respect

[Goober]

Undermining Pep's achievements in the game because he's only done it at top clubs is effectively the same as people who undermine Messi's because he hasn't done it in Stoke on a Tuesday night.

 

People seem to underestimate how hard it is to win a CL too. How many in the history of the game have 2 CL's wins let alone 3? Fergie 'only' got 2, I never see people bringing that up as a way to discredit him.

Edited 25 March 2021 by Goober

[Strokes]

4 hours ago, Goober said:

Undermining Pep's achievements in the game because he's only done it at top clubs is effectively the same as people who undermine Messi's because he hasn't done it in Stoke on a Tuesday night.

 

People seem to underestimate how hard it is to win a CL too. How many in the history of the game have 2 CL's wins let alone 3? Fergie 'only' got 2, I never see people bringing that up as a way to discredit him.

Yeah but Fergie won the European Cup winners cup and European Super Cup with Aberdeen, so it’s very unlikely they would say that about him.

[Aus Fox]

Has Pep won anything he wasn’t expected to win? 
He has spent close to 2 billion euros in his managerial career - and hasn’t won a European trophy for 8 years! 
At Bayern he won everything, but that’s what they do, they buy all the talent and win the league - nothing in Europe.

At Man City two league titles and 1 Fa Cup in 5 years is not a lot to show for over 800 million quid spent.

Not saying he’s not a good manager with a good football knowledge, but, if he retired tomorrow he doesn’t come close the absolute top draw of managers in our game.

[Muzzy_Larsson]

14 hours ago, KingsX said:

 

But those different trajectories produced managers with different strengths.

 

I don’t think superb skill in deploying the world’s greatest readymade footballers (and handling their egos), necessarily maps to developing young talent and turning them into a high performing unit.  The best at either one, is unlikely to also be the best at the other.

 

The best American definition of a great coach came from Bum Phillips of the (then) Houston Oilers:

    “He can take his'n and beat your'n, then he can take your'n and beat his'n”

 

Is that true of Pep?  We’ll never know.

I think that's the bit where we're disconnected though, when he took over the Barcelona job many of those players weren't already the best in the world, very good players yes, but not the best.

 

The best managers can do both, as Guardiola has proved a Barcelona, now with someone like Foden. Sir Alex Ferguson is another example of someone who was great at both.

 

He took guys like Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets and Pique and developed them to a level never thought possible. The former two weren't even considered first picks before he arrived.

[coolhandfox]

1 hour ago, Muzzy_Larsson said:

I think that's the bit where we're disconnected though, when he took over the Barcelona job many of those players weren't already the best in the world, very good players yes, but not the best.

 

The best managers can do both, as Guardiola has proved a Barcelona, now with someone like Foden. Sir Alex Ferguson is another example of someone who was great at both.

 

He took guys like Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets and Pique and developed them to a level never thought possible. The former two weren't even considered first picks before he arrived.

It not like they we bunch of cloggers, they did the the double in 2005-2006 winning the CL and La LIga and made the semi's of the CL IN 2007/08. Ronaldinho won the Ballon D'or in 2005 and Messi was 3rd in 2007.  

 

He took a very good side and made it great, his development of players like Busquets and Pique is to be admired. 

 

8 hours ago, Goober said:

Undermining Pep's achievements in the game because he's only done it at top clubs is effectively the same as people who undermine Messi's because he hasn't done it in Stoke on a Tuesday night.

 

People seem to underestimate how hard it is to win a CL too. How many in the history of the game have 2 CL's wins let alone 3? Fergie 'only' got 2, I never see people bringing that up as a way to discredit him.

Pep has only won it twice as a manager only Ancelotti and Zidane have won it 3 times, funnily no one seems to think Zidane is a great. 

 

I don't think its about undermining he's achievements it more about having a balanced view. What sets a manager like Fergie apart from Pep for me, is he's ability to take a unfancied team and be successful. Aberdeen had only won  1 Scottish Premier Division title in 1955 before Fergie, he won it 3 times and made them only the 3rd Scottish team to win a European trophy.

 

 

Edited 25 March 2021 by coolhandfox

[Danno]

I don’t really get the argument about Pep, he’s not exactly gonna take a job at Barnsley when all the best clubs in the world would take him in a heartbeat. 
 

I’m sure his tactics and training methods would win things with any team. 
 

Look at players like Sterling and how much he’s improved under him. 

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

Can see both sides of it and I fall very much on the side that if he didn't go to established teams with blank cheque books he'd be nowhere near as successful as he has been, I think he's underachieved massively as is. 

[foxes_rule1978]

15 minutes ago, DanNDH88 said:

I don’t really get the argument about Pep, he’s not exactly gonna take a job at Barnsley when all the best clubs in the world would take him in a heartbeat. 
 

I’m sure his tactics and training methods would win things with any team. 
 

Look at players like Sterling and how much he’s improved under him. 

He had spent a lot on a defence, wasting money on several players, and really struggled to get it right. He will be judged on CL football with how much has been spent, and right now he is yet to deliver for either Bayern Munich or Man City. So I see why people aren’t crowning him great just yet. 

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

Just now, foxes_rule1978 said:

He had spent a lot on a defence, wasting money on several players, and really struggled to get it right. He will be judged on CL football with how much has been spent, and right now he is yet to deliver for either Bayern Munich or Man City. So I see why people aren’t crowning him great just yet. 

He went to a Munich team who had won the treble, the best team in the world, spent a fortune and couldn't repeat it. How much has he spent on man city's defenders? I just don't get the idea he's an all time elite manager. 

[fuchsntf]

2 hours ago, Muzzy_Larsson said:

I think that's the bit where we're disconnected though, when he took over the Barcelona job many of those players weren't already the best in the world, very good players yes, but not the best.

 

The best managers can do both, as Guardiola has proved a Barcelona, now with someone like Foden. Sir Alex Ferguson is another example of someone who was great at both.

 

He took guys like Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets and Pique and developed them to a level never thought possible. The former two weren't even considered first picks before he arrived.

In England perhaps..!! In Spain, S.American.  From Churriso-seller,shoe-shiner, through to Sugar-rore worker...

They believe ALL is possible....

We see, the R.Marsh, F.Worthingtons,K.Wellers, S.Bowles,LeTissiers,G.Hoddles Late in their game Left on the Bench or Not even chosen, But Latin countries

have managers with vision...Club & International wise...!!!....

Anglo-seasons carry the "Never thought possible" badge...

[Muzzy_Larsson]

2 hours ago, coolhandfox said:

It not like they we bunch of cloggers, they did the the double in 2005-2006 winning the CL and La LIga and made the semi's of the CL IN 2007/08. Ronaldinho won the Ballon D'or in 2005 and Messi was 3rd in 2007.  

 

He took a very good side and made it great, his development of players like Busquets and Pique is to be admired. 

 

Pep has only won it twice as a manager only Ancelotti and Zidane have won it 3 times, funnily no one seems to think Zidane is a great. 

 

I don't think its about undermining he's achievements it more about having a balanced view. What sets a manager like Fergie apart from Pep for me, is he's ability to take a unfancied team and be successful. Aberdeen had only won  1 Scottish Premier Division title in 1955 before Fergie, he won it 3 times and made them only the 3rd Scottish team to win a European trophy.

 

 

Never insinuaed they were. The part your ignoring though is the core of the side that won it previously was Ronaldinho, Deco, Etoo, Puyol etc.

 

Guardiola's side the core was Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets, Messi and Pique. He took every one of those players and developed them to a level that was lightyears beyond where they were in 2006.

[Muzzy_Larsson]

2 hours ago, coolhandfox said:

It not like they we bunch of cloggers, they did the the double in 2005-2006 winning the CL and La LIga and made the semi's of the CL IN 2007/08. Ronaldinho won the Ballon D'or in 2005 and Messi was 3rd in 2007.  

 

He took a very good side and made it great, his development of players like Busquets and Pique is to be admired. 

 

Pep has only won it twice as a manager only Ancelotti and Zidane have won it 3 times, funnily no one seems to think Zidane is a great. 

 

I don't think its about undermining he's achievements it more about having a balanced view. What sets a manager like Fergie apart from Pep for me, is he's ability to take a unfancied team and be successful. Aberdeen had only won  1 Scottish Premier Division title in 1955 before Fergie, he won it 3 times and made them only the 3rd Scottish team to win a European trophy.

 

 

I'd agree Fergie is the master and on another level to Guardiola. That said, you can't ignore the context fo Fergie at Aberdeen either, it's similar to the accusation that's levied at Pep on this same thread, when he was the Aberdeen manager they were outspending both old firm clubs, by a good bit in terms of wages. tt was the only period in fairly recent histoy Aberdeen done that.

Edited 25 March 2021 by Muzzy_Larsson

[coolhandfox]

49 minutes ago, Muzzy_Larsson said:

I'd agree Fergie is the master and on another level to Guardiola. That said, you can't ignore the context fo Fergie at Aberdeen either, it's similar to the accusation that's levied at Pep on this same thread, when he was the Aberdeen manager they were outspending both old firm clubs, by a good bit in terms of wages. tt was the only period in fairly recent histoy Aberdeen done that.

I don't really have enough knowledge of his spending at Aberdeen, so were they a bit like Blackburn in the mid 90's. 

[coolhandfox]

1 hour ago, Muzzy_Larsson said:

Never insinuaed they were. The part your ignoring though is the core of the side that won it previously was Ronaldinho, Deco, Etoo, Puyol etc.

 

Guardiola's side the core was Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets, Messi and Pique. He took every one of those players and developed them to a level that was lightyears beyond where they were in 2006.

Xavi had played 300 + games Barc (40ish Spanish caps), Xavi 200 + (25ish Spanish caps), Messi 100 + games (30ish Argentina Caps) before Pep first season.

 

100% he improved them, but they were very good players in there own right before he took over. 

[Guest Bert Fill]

7 hours ago, Aus Fox said:

Has Pep won anything he wasn’t expected to win? 
He has spent close to 2 billion euros in his managerial career - and hasn’t won a European trophy for 8 years! 
At Bayern he won everything, but that’s what they do, they buy all the talent and win the league - nothing in Europe.

At Man City two league titles and 1 Fa Cup in 5 years is not a lot to show for over 800 million quid spent.

Not saying he’s not a good manager with a good football knowledge, but, if he retired tomorrow he doesn’t come close the absolute top draw of managers in our game.

Seeing as he’s only managed clubs that are expected to win everything it’d be a bit hard for him to win something he wasn’t expected to!

[Muzzy_Larsson]

57 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

I don't really have enough knowledge of his spending at Aberdeen, so were they a bit like Blackburn in the mid 90's. 

Yeah pretty much, maybe not on the same scale but it was widely reported at that time Aberdeen were paying their top players twice as much as what old firm players were on and that was largely the reason they were able to hold on to guys like Miller and McLeish.

[Muzzy_Larsson]

36 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Xavi had played 300 + games Barc (40ish Spanish caps), Xavi 200 + (25ish Spanish caps), Messi 100 + games (30ish Argentina Caps) before Pep first season.

 

100% he improved them, but they were very good players in there own right before he took over. 

They were good yes but they were almost unrecognisable from the players that dominated club and international football a few years later. Xavi for one, I'd be curious to know how many of those 300 appearances were even starts. Messi, like you say was a 3rd place Ballon d'or finisher then as he devloped basically won it every single year on the trot under pep.

 

Like you say they were good players, unquestionably but Pep turned them into some of the best players we'll ever see in the history of football, in one of the best sides in the history of football, not any manager could do that.

 

I'm not his biggest fan btw but it's churlish to try and play down the guy's ability as a coach. A lot of his issues at Bayern and Man City, in Europe anyway came from teams working out how to nullify tiki-taka and him taking a bit longer than he should have to adjust from his orthodox version of that.

[coolhandfox]

5 minutes ago, Muzzy_Larsson said:

They were good yes but they were almost unrecognisable from the players that dominated club and international football a few years later. Xavi for one, I'd be curious to know how many of those 300 appearances were even starts. Messi, like you say was a 3rd place Ballon d'or finisher then as he devloped basically won it every single year on the trot under pep.

 

Like you say they were good players, unquestionably but Pep turned them into some of the best players we'll ever see in the history of football, in one of the best sides in the history of football, not any manager could do that.

 

I'm not his biggest fan btw but it's churlish to try and play down the guy's ability as a coach. A lot of his issues at Bayern and Man City, in Europe anyway came from teams working out how to nullify tiki-taka and him taking a bit longer than he should have to adjust from his orthodox version of that.

He a great coach, my point was he's has had the best raw material to work with. 

 

[Muzzy_Larsson]

52 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

He a great coach, my point was he's has had the best raw material to work with. 

 

Yeah you can't argue with that but on the flip side there are plenty of great coaches who have had similar and made a pigs ear of it. Equally there are guys who work great on a shoestring but can't handle working at bigger clubs, with greater resources and better players. 

[Aus Fox]

4 hours ago, Bert Fill said:

Seeing as he’s only managed clubs that are expected to win everything it’d be a bit hard for him to win something he wasn’t expected to!

No European title with Bayern, none with Man City. They are the things he needs to go out and win to put himself up there with the greats.

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

His reputation gets him a lot of time. A lot of managers managing man City and spending 500m on defenders and still shipping goals, and getting 2 league titles in 4 years on the back of it, it's difficult to perceive any other manager in world football being given that amount of time and money to get it right, when you consider how top managers are tossed away willy nilly spending a lot less and achieving a lot more at elite level. 

[shailen]

I think this idea of having more money makes the job significantly easier is flawed. It does obviously help Pep that he has significant funds to buy the players he wants but he has to still manage the team, create a system and keep everyone happy. It must be tough when you've got the egos he's had at Barcelona especially, but it always feels like he's in control. 

 

Pep has revolutionised football, with playing out from the back, the inverted full backs, the wide wingers... I've not seen another manager implement a strategy like this as successfully as he has. Take Chelsea last season, who spent hundreds of millions and they don't look that much better than last season, so it's not as easy as people think. Man City under Pep have the highest two points totals including getting 100 points one season. It's so scary and a joke at how easy he's found it the last few years. I don't think any other current manager could do what he's done at Man City. 

[Guest SO1]

So have we reached the point where its understood that everyone has their own special shit to deal with and everyone deserves respect who has reached this level of Football Management?

Edited 26 March 2021 by SO1

[coolhandfox]

7 hours ago, shailen said:

I think this idea of having more money makes the job significantly easier is flawed. It does obviously help Pep that he has significant funds to buy the players he wants but he has to still manage the team, create a system and keep everyone happy. It must be tough when you've got the egos he's had at Barcelona especially, but it always feels like he's in control. 

 

Pep has revolutionised football, with playing out from the back, the inverted full backs, the wide wingers... I've not seen another manager implement a strategy like this as successfully as he has. Take Chelsea last season, who spent hundreds of millions and they don't look that much better than last season, so it's not as easy as people think. Man City under Pep have the highest two points totals including getting 100 points one season. It's so scary and a joke at how easy he's found it the last few years. I don't think any other current manager could do what he's done at Man City. 

So do you think Pep would have found implementing he ideas easier with Sheff U squad or his, or got a 100 points with Sheff U squad. 

 

Money doesn't make you successful, but it does make it easier. The are 800m reason which have help Man City since Pep joined in 2016. 

 

He didn't revolutionise football with playing out from the back, coaches like Rinus Michels, followed my Johan Cruyff (Pep's mentor) started that in the 70s with total football.

 

Is he a brilliant coach, yes of course, is he one of the best in the world yes. 

 

[shailen]

8 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

So do you think Pep would have found implementing he ideas easier with Sheff U squad or his, or got a 100 points with Sheff U squad. 

 

Money doesn't make you successful, but it does make it easier. The are 800m reason which have help Man City since Pep joined in 2016. 

 

He didn't revolutionise football with playing out from the back, coaches like Rinus Michels, followed my Johan Cruyff (Pep's mentor) started that in the 70s with total football.

 

Is he a brilliant coach, yes of course, is he one of the best in the world yes. 

 

No of course not. Obviously the money has helped him, but Jose had it at United and so did various managers at Chelsea and they've not had the same level of success. We're the shining example that money doesn't necessarily buy success. 

 

In regards to his philosophy, yes he didn't pioneer that style of play as you mentioned with the Dutch and Total football but since his Barcelona team dominated for 5 or so years, every team now plays out from the back and sees it as the progessive way to play. We're seeing the emergence of sweeper keepers now and the value of ball playing defenders, which wasn't really a thing until he came on the scene.