Coaching

[Sol thewall Bamba]

44 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

its hard to change things when you have so little time in between games.

Just more excuses. Evans and Kasper can organise man to man marking to defend a corner. It's literally stuff you teach to kids at about 10 years old.

[Spudulike]

Shooting. Whatever happened to that? You'd like to think it's a basic technique that's practiced everyday. You learn how to keep it down in your school days. However, how many times do our players balloon the shot wildly over the bar. I appreciate that modern balls are more like beach balls but even so no excuse for some of the efforts we've seen this season. Frustrating. 

[UniFox21]

40 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...apart from Steve Walsh jnr, I am sure the aforementioned players have coaching badges.

 It might even instill some grit in the team. 

 As regards Liverpool,  did they actually bring in coaches in for "Throw ins", seems a very strange aspect of the game to bring in "specialists". I have posted before regarding our inability to find a man when taking them and it is either a 50/50 or 60/40 to the opposition. 

  If Klopp believes in such fine lines we may just need to take a look ourselves. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.skysports.com/amp/football/news/11669/11917674/liverpool-throw-in-coach-thomas-gronnemark-explains-his-role

 

He explains what his role is in this.

Edited 4 March 2021 by UniFox21

[sacreblueits442]

53 minutes ago, Collymore said:

It's good points about the game moving on actually. I don't think they'd get away with half the stuff they did with VAR. 

...technique is what we need to coach, the actual technicalities of heading the ball is ignored!!!

  It seems you either have it from coming through the juniors or just do what you always have done. 

[Pliskin]

30 minutes ago, foxfanazer said:

Fair enough. No harm wanting to see improvements on our obvious flaws. Could be the difference in finishing top 4 in the end if we just sharpened up a bit from set pieces 

Set plays are a concern, but I can understand why he adopts a zonal, and I would suggest out conceding from set plays has subsided a little since Timmy and Cags came back? Zonal is controversial in itself is it any better than man for man? I'm not sure it is.... 

[sacreblueits442]

57 minutes ago, ARTY_FOX said:

It probably doesn't help that we're quite a short team on set peices. Then the taller players we do have, don't have a man and generally it's someone who has no business marking a 6ft 2 centre back that gets beaten in the air. 

 

Qhen taking corners we must aim for the near post because I refuse to beleive that 2 players of the quality maddison and tielemans possess can't get a corner past the first man. Just a shit corner idea imo. Zonal needs binning. It has never and will never be a good idea. 

...if that was the case, why is there no movement or organised effort to attack the near post!!!

  We really are that poor at corners, we need to address the problem.

  Apparently it has been posted that Maddison only hits the near post 20% of the time, if that was the case, according to you he is not following instructions. 

[foxfanazer]

3 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

Set plays are a concern, but I can understand why he adopts a zonal, and I would suggest out conceding from set plays has subsided a little since Timmy and Cags came back? Zonal is controversial in itself is it any better than man for man? I'm not sure it is.... 

No me neither, I think it takes away a level of responsibility and accountability

[sacreblueits442]

51 minutes ago, foxfanazer said:

People saying about the schedule this season meaning we're probably not on the training pitch too much is a good point. Say we we're playing Thursday, Sunday, Thursday most weeks, what days would we be training in between those? 

...these issues stem from last season and before!!!

  We are now perhaps over 100 corners and yet to score, over 240 previously this is not something happening just this season. 

[foxfanazer]

1 minute ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...these issues stem from last season and before!!!

  We are now perhaps over 100 corners and yet to score, over 240 previously this is not something happening just this season. 

No I agree but it did raise a point I hadn't really considered too much about the actual amount of training days. The record we have is nothing short of a joke

[ARTY_FOX]

33 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...if that was the case, why is there no movement or organised effort to attack the near post!!!

  We really are that poor at corners, we need to address the problem.

  Apparently it has been posted that Maddison only hits the near post 20% of the time, if that was the case, according to you he is not following instructions. 

Well we've started taking more short corners, which I don't mind. But Tielemans and maddison both hit the exact same area at the near post. Just can't be a coincidence to me. 

[Guest]

I don't think there are too many deficiencies in our game that you could put down to poor coaching but it's a fair question, especially where set pieces are concerned. I can't remember another period when we've looked so vulnerable defending them and so toothless attacking them. Even when we take one short (which I know gets some people rattled but I personally quite like) it's painfully obvious that there's nothing even vaguely resembling a plan or strategy in place, we're just making it up as we go. I guess the obvious counter argument is that with less time between games we're prioritising more important areas, but it's been a glaring weakness pretty much all season and one that could ultimately prove quite costly. Maybe we actually spend hours every session working on them and we're still just shit at them, I don't know.

 

I don't think it's necessarily a zonal marking issue though, nor that we would see an improvement defensively if we went man to man. Whichever you use, you're reliant on players doing the job they've been assigned and if one or more fails then you're in trouble. Our issues seem to be a lack of physicality, ability to attack the ball and track runners, and I don't see how man marking magically fixes that.

[sacreblueits442]

5 minutes ago, Guest said:

I don't think there are too many deficiencies in our game that you could put down to poor coaching but it's a fair question, especially where set pieces are concerned. I can't remember another period when we've looked so vulnerable defending them and so toothless attacking them. Even when we take one short (which I know gets some people rattled but I personally quite like) it's painfully obvious that there's nothing even vaguely resembling a plan or strategy in place, we're just making it up as we go. I guess the obvious counter argument is that with less time between games we're prioritising more important areas, but it's been a glaring weakness pretty much all season and one that could ultimately prove quite costly. Maybe we actually spend hours every session working on them and we're still just shit at them, I don't know.

 

I don't think it's necessarily a zonal marking issue though, nor that we would see an improvement defensively if we went man to man. Whichever you use, you're reliant on players doing the job they've been assigned and if one or more fails then you're in trouble. Our issues seem to be a lack of physicality, ability to attack the ball and track runners, and I don't see how man marking magically fixes that.

..tantamount to a goalkeeper standing next to his left upright as he believes that is where the penalty is going to go!!!

  By going zonal you have already shown your hand how you are going to defend and any big Forward or Centre Half matches himself against your weakest area (man).

[STUHILL]

It's interesting that even ex pros often criticise zonal marking. I wonder what modern coaches see in the data that suggests it is the best method to use. Having Fofana back will certainly help though. I also think we do struggle with having a keeper who doesn't have the height to come out and claim a lot of these crosses. 

Rodgers seems a coach, who has a set method and the players need to fit into that, whether they are physically capable or not. It does suggest, the more he adds his own players to the squad, the better we will be, and considering we are 3rd now, that is a scary good thought! 

[sacreblueits442]

5 minutes ago, STUHILL said:

It's interesting that even ex pros often criticise zonal marking. I wonder what modern coaches see in the data that suggests it is the best method to use. Having Fofana back will certainly help though. I also think we do struggle with having a keeper who doesn't have the height to come out and claim a lot of these crosses. 

Rodgers seems a coach, who has a set method and the players need to fit into that, whether they are physically capable or not. It does suggest, the more he adds his own players to the squad, the better we will be, and considering we are 3rd now, that is a scary good thought! 

...noticed Kasper is a bit more proactive and has began to come and punch the ball at corners as he used to do!!!

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

..tantamount to a goalkeeper standing next to his left upright as he believes that is where the penalty is going to go!!!

  By going zonal you have already shown your hand how you are going to defend and any big Forward or Centre Half matches himself against your weakest area (man).

Well it's not tantamount to that. 

 

By going man-to-man you are committing yourself to a direct physical battle with your opponents. Our regular starting line up has, I would say, three players who are quite good in the air - whichever two centre backs start and Wilf. That's it. Against any team with a bit of height about them we're going to see mismatches whichever system we use.

 

Neither system is flawless, because if it were, every team in the world would use it and there'd be no debate. I'm not saying zonal marking is the right way to defend set pieces and I won't pretend to be an expert on it. I'm saying that I don't think it is the root cause of our deficiencies and it's not as simple as "man marking good, zonal marking bad".

[enmac]

While on this topic. Going back to 15/16, how many goals did we score from set pieces and how many did we concede? I've no idea, but do have an abiding memory of Huth's goal against Spurs. Was that the most important goal of that season? 

[foxfanazer]

7 minutes ago, enmac said:

While on this topic. Going back to 15/16, how many goals did we score from set pieces and how many did we concede? I've no idea, but do have an abiding memory of Huth's goal against Spurs. Was that the most important goal of that season? 

2 against man city also for Huth 

[enmac]

16 minutes ago, foxfanazer said:

2 against man city also for Huth 

 

[coolhandfox]

2 hours ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Just more excuses. Evans and Kasper can organise man to man marking to defend a corner. It's literally stuff you teach to kids at about 10 years old.

How much experience have you got coaching football? 

 

If it was easy no team would coincide from a corner........

 

I have no reason to give excuses as it's not down to me, but I like to think about reason why.

 

Edited 4 March 2021 by coolhandfox

[Sol thewall Bamba]

5 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

How much experience have you got coaching football? 

 

If it was easy no team would coincide from a corner........

 

I have no reason to give excuses as it's not down to me, but I like to think about reason why.

I haven't coached myself but I've been coached to a half decent standard when I was younger. Organising the defending of a corner man to man requires less work than zonal. Anyone can tell you that. 

 

These are professional footballers we're talking about with hundreds of professional appearances each. They can organise defending a corner man to man without having to run through it endlessly on the training ground. 

Edited 4 March 2021 by Sol thewall Bamba

[coolhandfox]

4 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

I haven't coached myself but I've been coached to a half decent standard when I was younger. Organising the defending of a corner man to man requires less work than zonal. Anyone can tell you that. 

 

These are professional footballers we're talking about with hundreds of professional appearances each. They can organise defending a corner man to man without having to run through it endlessly on the training ground. 

So why do some many top tier team zonal mark or do a mixture of both?

 

The coaching questions wasn't a dig by the way, just interested. I've spent over 20 years coaching 7-16 and coaching set pieces with kids isn't much fun.

 

 

[HighPeakFox]

7 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

I haven't coached myself but I've been coached to a half decent standard when I was younger. Organising the defending of a corner man to man requires less work than zonal. Anyone can tell you that. 

 

These are professional footballers we're talking about with hundreds of professional appearances each. They can organise defending a corner man to man without having to run through it endlessly on the training ground. 

I wonder if, like with things like shooting, or timing a tackle, one can get in the groove with such things - or, in this case, in a horrible rut.

[Sol thewall Bamba]

1 minute ago, coolhandfox said:

So why do some many top tier team zonal mark or do a mixture of both?

 

The coaching questions wasn't a dig by the way, just interested. I've spent over 20 years coaching 7-16 and coaching set pieces with kids isn't much fun.

Surely if your team was conceding so many from set plays you'd consider changing the system and trying the other option though? Likewise if you were conceding from man to man you'd consider zonal to change it up. As a centre half if I was conceding that many goals I'd be going to the coach to ask to consider a change. I'm not out on a whim here, I see people moaning about zonal twice a week on my Twitter feed.

[Leicester_Loyal]

4 hours ago, ARM1968 said:

Set pieces at both ends are a disgrace. Simple. 

Word.

[sacreblueits442]

29 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

So why do some many top tier team zonal mark or do a mixture of both?

 

The coaching questions wasn't a dig by the way, just interested. I've spent over 20 years coaching 7-16 and coaching set pieces with kids isn't much fun.

 

 

...I would have thought at 7 years old, it's all very well doing what you have asked them to do, but the understanding of why they are doing it and the implications of not getting it right may be lost!!!

  It can not be easy to get the practicalities right and the only system I have heard of, being the Ajax system back in the day where trainees play in different positions for a period in order for them to understand the position and its relationship to the team. 

Edited 4 March 2021 by sacreblueits442