A game too many!!

[Fox92]

3 minutes ago, weller54 said:

Nothing odd about it at all....

Of course I'd love us to win the FA Cup , but not this season. Our squad isn't strong enough to compete in both and at the same time the Europa!!..

I just think looking at the bigger picture, finishing 4th is more beneficial to the club right now!

Ideally I'd love us to do both, but at this moment in time I don't think it's possible given the strength of our squad.

If the squad's not strong enough then what's the point in qualifying for Europe.

 

We are not in a position to pick and choose what competitions we want to be in. ALL competitions have to be treated the same.

 

But give me a trophy any day of the week. Any trophy. In 10/20/30 years time I wanna look back and say I saw us win something not that we finished 4th.

[Voll Blau]

7 minutes ago, weller54 said:

Nothing odd about it at all....

Of course I'd love us to win the FA Cup , but not this season. Our squad isn't strong enough to compete in both and at the same time the Europa!!..

I just think looking at the bigger picture, finishing 4th is more beneficial to the club right now!

Ideally I'd love us to do both, but at this moment in time I don't think it's possible given the strength of our squad.

I'd far rather win trophies, especially one we've never won before. Finishing fourth is more beneficial if you're an accountant for the club, but I'm a supporter.

 

As @Fox92rightly says, as a club we're in no place to pick and choose when we win things and it would be a massive shame if the most talented squad in our history ended up with nothing to show for it.

[HighPeakFox]

2 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

If the squad's not strong enough then what's the point in qualifying for Europe.

 

We are not in a position to pick and choose what competitions we want to be in. ALL competitions have to be treated the same.

 

But give me a trophy any day of the week. Any trophy. In 10/20/30 years time I wanna look back and say I saw us win something not that we finished 4th.

All competitions are treated the same. Unfortunately, chronic injuries have forced pragmatic choices. As for the first line, at the risk of repeating myself, your argument is a false one, because it simply fails to take into account the extraordinary circumstances everyone finds themselves in this season/since last March. Nobody, but nobody WANTED to get knocked out of Europe, just as I don't want us to lose in the FA Cup this season. The squad (one hopes) will be fitter, larger and have more quality next season, a season which should be much less condensed and the club be in a better position to compete longer and with more realism. I find it so strange that some cannot see that this season is anomalous, an outlier, and set in conditions one hopes that are never repeated. I suppose if one treats this season in isolation and assumes that everything will be identical next season, then your argument can be made I guess, but otherwise, it risks looking somewhat 'instant result-ish'.

[HighPeakFox]

4 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

I'd far rather win trophies, especially one we've never won before. Finishing fourth is more beneficial if you're an accountant for the club, but I'm a supporter.

 

As @Fox92rightly says, as a club we're in no place to pick and choose when we win things and it would be a massive shame if the most talented squad in our history ended up with nothing to show for it.

Finishing fourth is more beneficial if you want to enhance that very talented squad you speak of - unless of course, it is your belief that this is as good as it can get for us, which I doubt you do.

[coolhandfox]

28 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

If the squad's not strong enough then what's the point in qualifying for Europe.

 

We are not in a position to pick and choose what competitions we want to be in. ALL competitions have to be treated the same.

 

But give me a trophy any day of the week. Any trophy. In 10/20/30 years time I wanna look back and say I saw us win something not that we finished 4th.

That's a little bit like saying if your PB is'nt good enough to win the Gold, Silver or Bronze medal at the 100m sprint at the Olympic don't bother trying to qualify.

 

Usain Bolt came 40th in the heats for the 200m sprint in  Athens 2004 and the came back in Beijing 2008 and won both the 100m and 200m sprints with two world record.

 

Sometimes you have to compete to realise what it take to be successful and build.

 

It took Chelsea 6 season to get to their first CL final, it took them another 4 to win one.

 

 

Edited 10 March 2021 by coolhandfox

[weller54]

42 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

If the squad's not strong enough then what's the point in qualifying for Europe.

 

We are not in a position to pick and choose what competitions we want to be in. ALL competitions have to be treated the same.

 

But give me a trophy any day of the week. Any trophy. In 10/20/30 years time I wanna look back and say I saw us win something not that we finished 4th.

But if we quality for the CL we'll get a squad that's strong/good enough, qualification is worth hundreds of millions!... it's not that hard to understand 😁.

[Voll Blau]

48 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

Finishing fourth is more beneficial if you want to enhance that very talented squad you speak of - unless of course, it is your belief that this is as good as it can get for us, which I doubt you do.

To what end though? We develop the squad to compete to develop the squad to compete to develop the squad to compete. It's been an argument as to why we shouldn't bother going for trophies for years and it's just ridiculous. Yes, Champions League football is *a* draw for a player, but equally so is winning medals and trophies. Silverware shows an ambitious club more than wanting to finish fourth every year does.

 

I don't think this is as good as it can get for us, but this current squad is more than capable of regularly winning domestic silverware right now. We'll come to regret it one day if we rest on our laurels and assume that league status alone will keep us competing at the top and, more importantly, note us down in history as a successful club rather than one that was just a flash in the pan in 2016.

Edited 10 March 2021 by Voll Blau

[fazzyfox]

Ordinarily and with a fully fit squad we may have played our best side vs Rangers then started v Sheff Utd with Vardy, Maddison & Barnes on the bench and with two full backs to chose from Ricardo, Castagne, Justin, same at CB etc a few would be fresh. At the moment, yes, I'd be terrified of losing one or two more players or having a flat performance on Sunday due to using the same side. 

Ideally a full pre-seasons training schedule his summer could lead into a "normal" season next time. There will still be some flat Sunday performances, we've seen it from Spurs and others over the years but with a bit of rotation we have enough decent players for them to play 3 out of 4 games each and still have a strong line up each time.

[sacreblueits442]

7 minutes ago, weller54 said:

But if we quality for the CL we'll get a squad that's strong/good enough, qualification is worth hundreds of millions!... it's not that hard to understand 😁.

...not sure that is true!!!

It is a complicated process of valuation and coefficients!!!

   Champions league will not earn our club anywhere near a £100m.

[Dahnsouff]

7 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

To what end though? We develop the squad to compete to develop the squad to compete to develop the squad to compete. It's been an argument as to why we shouldn't bother going for trophies for years and it's just ridiculous. Yes, Champions League football is *a* draw for a player, but equally so is winning medals and trophies. Silverware shows an ambitious club more than wanting to finish fourth every year does.

 

I don't think this is as good as it can get for us, but this current quad is more than capable of regularly winning domestic silverware right now. We'll come to regret it one day if we rest on our laurels and assume that league status alone will keep us competing at the top and, more importantly, note us down in history as a successful club rather than one that was just a flash in the pan in 2016.

We improve the squad, by finishing high in the league/getting into Europe, so we have more potential to win trophies. However  if the focus is on winning trophies over getting into Europe, then our ability to improve the squad is reduced.

[HighPeakFox]

6 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

To what end though? We develop the squad to compete to develop the squad to compete to develop the squad to compete. It's been an argument as to why we shouldn't bother going for trophies for years and it's just ridiculous. Yes, Champions League football is *a* draw for a player, but equally so is winning medals and trophies. Silverware shows an ambitious club more than wanting to finish fourth every year does.

 

I don't think this is as good as it can get for us, but this current quad is more than capable of regularly winning domestic silverware right now. We'll come to regret it one day if we rest on our laurels and assume that league status alone will keep us competing at the top and, more importantly, note us down in history as a successful club rather than one that was just a flash in the pan in 2016.

I think it is perhaps worth going back to the OP in this thread - which was that (right now) the Europa tie was one too many. With injuries as they are, I had no realistic hope of winning that competition, as long as we were clearly competing in the PL and the FA Cup. I've heard it said that there is a desire, a stated aim, within the club to win the FA Cup. And do you know what, I'm all up for that too. But the whole point about finishing top 4 is that is gets us away from the notion of being that flash in the pan you mention. You want domestic silverware - well the Europa ain't that and we've a real chance in the FA Cup. So I'm slightly confused what your arument is exactly.

[Nalis]

For me, I think this is the season we need to take the FA Cup seriously. If we get to the final we only have 3 midweek matches between now and the end of the season.

 

If we want to go far in Europe next season (if we qualify) then we'll probably need to ditch the FA Cup next season.

 

Saying that, Man City will probably win it regardless of whether we take it seriously or not...

[weller54]

5 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...not sure that is true!!!

It is a complicated process of valuation and coefficients!!!

   Champions league will not earn our club anywhere near a £100m.

Don't you agree it would help attract the better players to our club?... would winning the FA Cup ?

Overall, CL football is far more beneficial to the long term aim of our club than winning the FA Cup..in my opinion.

[HighPeakFox]

Just now, weller54 said:

Don't you agree it would help attract the better players to our club?... would winning the FA Cup ?

Overall, CL football is far more beneficial to the long term aim of our club than winning the FA Cup..in my opinion.

Exactly. That's not to say winning the FA Cup would be a bad thing either, but times have changed (for better or worse) and the reality is that ECL qualification is now a huge carrot.

[Voll Blau]

2 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

We improve the squad, by finishing high in the league/getting into Europe, so we have more potential to win trophies. However  if the focus is on winning trophies over getting into Europe, then our ability to improve the squad is reduced.

But it's an argument that's been put forward for years. We have the potential to win trophies right now because we've built the squad up to that level! Plus, winning trophies gets you into Europe!

 

If we strengthen the squad and are competing in the league again in future seasons I can guarantee the same people will be saying we should put thoughts of silverware to one side "just this year" to keep competing in the league. And if we're not competing in the league they'll be saying we need to be competitive in the league before we look to go for trophies. It's such a self-defeating logic.

 

It so saddens me that Leicester City fans, of all people, would prefer the relentless Spursy pursuit of "being competitive" for the sake of it than actually having a trophy cabinet we can be proud of.

[Bert]

1 hour ago, Voll Blau said:

I'd far rather win trophies, especially one we've never won before. Finishing fourth is more beneficial if you're an accountant for the club, but I'm a supporter.

 

As @Fox92rightly says, as a club we're in no place to pick and choose when we win things and it would be a massive shame if the most talented squad in our history ended up with nothing to show for it.

Innit. 
 

If we have/had no intention of winning the FA Cup I’d rather we’d have just gone out in the third round. 

[HighPeakFox]

1 minute ago, Voll Blau said:

But it's an argument that's been put forward for years. We have the potential to win trophies right now because we've built the squad up to that level! Plus, winning trophies gets you into Europe!

 

If we strengthen the squad and are competing in the league again in future seasons I can guarantee the same people will be saying we should put thoughts of silverware to one side "just this year" to keep competing in the league. And if we're not competing in the league they'll be saying we need to be competitive in the league before we look to go for trophies. It's such a self-defeating logic.

 

It so saddens me that Leicester City fans, of all people, would prefer the relentless Spursy pursuit of "being competitive" for the sake of it than actually having a trophy cabinet we can be proud of.

So some people say stuff, and will continue to say stuff that you disagree with - does it actually matter?

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, Voll Blau said:

But it's an argument that's been put forward for years. We have the potential to win trophies right now because we've built the squad up to that level! Plus, winning trophies gets you into Europe!

 

If we strengthen the squad and are competing in the league again in future seasons I can guarantee the same people will be saying we should put thoughts of silverware to one side "just this year" to keep competing in the league. And if we're not competing in the league they'll be saying we need to be competitive in the league before we look to go for trophies. It's such a self-defeating logic.

 

It so saddens me that Leicester City fans, of all people, would prefer the relentless Spursy pursuit of "being competitive" for the sake of it than actually having a trophy cabinet we can be proud of.

Obviously I cannot speak for all fans, but it’s not about that for me. It’s about making an established, long term success of the club. It is of course true that we can compete for trophies whilst qualifying for Europe, and I certainly take this season on its own peculiar merits, rather than an indication of our future aims.

[HighPeakFox]

A reminder to you all that we're on page 2 of a thread that is not about the FA Cup - it was about the Europa being a bridge too far this season. I read it that going out of Europa in effect enhances our chances of winning the FA Cup this season, which would be amazing. So I'm not sure why we're going on about it.

[Voll Blau]

6 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

I think it is perhaps worth going back to the OP in this thread - which was that (right now) the Europa tie was one too many. With injuries as they are, I had no realistic hope of winning that competition, as long as we were clearly competing in the PL and the FA Cup. I've heard it said that there is a desire, a stated aim, within the club to win the FA Cup. And do you know what, I'm all up for that too. But the whole point about finishing top 4 is that is gets us away from the notion of being that flash in the pan you mention. You want domestic silverware - well the Europa ain't that and we've a real chance in the FA Cup. So I'm slightly confused what your arument is exactly.

I guess we see it differently then. Ultimately, history will judge this squad by the silverware it won during this brilliant and very enjoyable era. It would be a great shame if we had nothing to show for it - in the same way it will be for a good Spurs side who've yet to actually win anything.

 

My point about "domestic silverware" was more in reference to people preferring league position, which incurs a place in the Champions League (a trophy I don't think we can win), over FA/League Cup wins, which incur a place in the Europa League (a competition I believe we feasibly could win).

 

Do I want us to finish as high up in the league as possible every year? Of course! But why every year (and we do see this same argument every year, no matter how we're doing in the league and Cups) do fans insist that it's more important than winning stuff?

[Voll Blau]

1 minute ago, Dahnsouff said:

Obviously I cannot speak for all fans, but it’s not about that for me. It’s about making an established, long term success of the club. It is of course true that we can compete for trophies whilst qualifying for Europe, and I certainly take this season on its own peculiar merits, rather than an indication of our future aims.

And ultimately, history will judge whether we were an "established, long term success" by our trophy count. At some point, people's mentality will need to change from the idea of finishing in fourth being the be all and end all for us if they want the club to be seen the way you describe.

[HighPeakFox]

2 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

I guess we see it differently then. Ultimately, history will judge this squad by the silverware it won during this brilliant and very enjoyable era. It would be a great shame if we had nothing to show for it - in the same way it will be for a good Spurs side who've yet to actually win anything.

 

My point about "domestic silverware" was more in reference to people preferring league position, which incurs a place in the Champions League (a trophy I don't think we can win), over FA/League Cup wins, which incur a place in the Europa League (a competition I believe we feasibly could win).

 

Do I want us to finish as high up in the league as possible every year? Of course! But why every year (and we do see this same argument every year, no matter how we're doing in the league and Cups) do fans insist that it's more important than winning stuff?

OK, I think we largely agree

 

It is simply that you have a slightly different echelon of priorities - and it really shouldn't matter. This season, I think the club wants the FA Cup AND top 4, and that should keep the vast majority deliriously happy for now.

[filbertway]

22 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

To what end though? We develop the squad to compete to develop the squad to compete to develop the squad to compete. It's been an argument as to why we shouldn't bother going for trophies for years and it's just ridiculous. Yes, Champions League football is *a* draw for a player, but equally so is winning medals and trophies. Silverware shows an ambitious club more than wanting to finish fourth every year does.

Have to disagree with all of this, players are interested in money and competing at the highest possible level. They're not going to be romantics. Well club A is offering me 80k p/w and Champions league football. Club B won the FA cup last year but can only afford to offer me 40k p/w, on the other hand it will be nice looking at that domestic trophy they won last season.

 

I disagree with the idea that it's one or the other anyway, but if it did happen that way. The player is going for the team that's competing in the champions league rather than the team that's won a couple of FA cups in recent seasons. 

[weller54]

13 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

But it's an argument that's been put forward for years. We have the potential to win trophies right now because we've built the squad up to that level! Plus, winning trophies gets you into Europe!

 

If we strengthen the squad and are competing in the league again in future seasons I can guarantee the same people will be saying we should put thoughts of silverware to one side "just this year" to keep competing in the league. And if we're not competing in the league they'll be saying we need to be competitive in the league before we look to go for trophies. It's such a self-defeating logic.

 

It so saddens me that Leicester City fans, of all people, would prefer the relentless Spursy pursuit of "being competitive" for the sake of it than actually having a trophy cabinet we can be proud of.

We can dine off the fact that we won the PL trophy just a few years ago. The ultimate domestic trophy!

Spurs fans (bless their hearts) will never have that wonderful feeling 😂.

Thank you God!

Thank you so bloody much!!!

[volpeazzurro]

42 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

That's a little bit like saying if your PB is'nt good enough to win the Gold, Silver or Bronze medal at the 100m sprint at the Olympic don't bother trying to qualify.

 

Usain Bolt came 40th in the heats for the 200m sprint in  Athens 2004 and the came back in Beijing 2008 and won both the 100m and 200m sprints with two world record.

 

Sometimes you have to compete to realise what it take to be successful and build.

 

It took Chelsea 6 season to get to their first CL final, it took them another 4 to win one.

 

Very nice examples and makes a very salient point. I'm sure we'd all like to win an FA Cup though in itself, regardless of how strong your team is, it's can always be a lottery at times. I'm sure Wigan were grateful for the experience but where are they now. This extremely unusual season is an incredibly defining one also. Top 4 and Champions League football will assist us in helping to keep some of our best players and also help us to recruit better one's as well as any obvious increased revenue. 7th place and an FA Cup, whilst nice, will do little for any of the above and even the experience of it would be dumbed down if you can't actually go to watch it or see it on TV with a capacity crowd. Just a statistic for the record books of little consequence really.

 

The former however, allows improvement and the possibility of competing better on all levels for the future as potentially, even our squad players could be of a higher quality. This very odd year could be quite a defining one for us. In any case, I'm sure Rodgers will absolutely want to win it and put as strong a team out as possible.