A game too many!!

[HighPeakFox]

18 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Yes, but what exactly are we keeping them for anyway if we're not trying to use them to win stuff now?

We are trying to win stuff now. I think your argument is with a mindset rather than the club's ambitions.

[Voll Blau]

3 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

We are trying to win stuff now. I think your argument is with a mindset rather than the club's ambitions.

Yes, you're right. It's a mindset I find baffling among some of our fans. Rodgers clearly wants trophies and I suspect the board do too.

[coolhandfox]

Lots of disagreements about what's more important with regards the develop of  the club.

 

I believe that trophies and top 4 are equally important, 

 

Spurs have achieved lots of of top 4 but win no trophies, Arsenal lots of FA cups but have missed top 4.

 

We need a combination of both over the next 5 years to move to the next level.

[HighPeakFox]

1 minute ago, Voll Blau said:

Yes, you're right. It's a mindset I find baffling among some of our fans. Rodgers clearly wants trophies and I suspect the board do too.

For the record, I was and am in favour of being in the EL too - I didn't enjoy the performances or being knocked out. However, I could and can now see that there might be a considerable upside given current circumstances. Were we injury-free and not playing a shortened and congested season, I'm pretty sure I'd feel differently about it.

 

I fully expect us to have a proper go at beating Man Utd in the FA Cup too.

[coolhandfox]

15 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Yes, you're right. It's a mindset I find baffling among some of our fans. Rodgers clearly wants trophies and I suspect the board do too.

100%

 

Strangely fans think the club makes a decision to not try and win things.

 

I'm pretty sure we entered the Europa League, FA Cup, League Cup with a view of going as deep as possible in all those competitions and would have loved to have won any of them,.

 

But unfortunately the quality, health and wellbeing of the squad effect our ability to compete in any given game, any one who thinks BR or the club was happy to lose to Prague are sadly mistaken. 

 

 

Edited 11 March 2021 by coolhandfox

[davieG]

It's a bit pointless debating the EL it's gone whether it's a blessing or not we can't do anything about it.

 

As for the debate about the FA Cup with the current fixture schedule I really can't see us not going for it. There's a 7 day 'rest' between the Sheff Utd game and the FA Cup so I really can't see us putting out a weakened team apart from the missing injured.

 

After that who knows we've got to win the Man U game first.

 

So at this stage I don't even think top 4 v FA Cup is even an issue.

 

 

[dmayne7]

24 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Lots of disagreements about what's more important with regards the develop of  the club.

 

I believe that trophies and top 4 are equally important, 

 

Spurs have achieved lots of of top 4 but win no trophies, Arsenal lots of FA cups but have missed top 4.

 

We need a combination of both over the next 5 years to move to the next level.

The thing is that both of those clubs are going to be in the reckoning for a number of years simply because they have had so much Champions League football that their overall wealth profile is so secure. That's why I think that CL qualification is a priority for the next few years as if we could do that, the trophies will follow.

[coolhandfox]

58 minutes ago, dmayne7 said:

The thing is that both of those clubs are going to be in the reckoning for a number of years simply because they have had so much Champions League football that their overall wealth profile is so secure. That's why I think that CL qualification is a priority for the next few years as if we could do that, the trophies will follow.

Wealth is important but not as important as a how you use it. Man U spend about 500m more on wages then Man City.

 

I'm sure Spurs have been having that conversation for a while. 

Edited 11 March 2021 by coolhandfox

[Raw Dykes]

58 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Yes, but what exactly are we keeping them for anyway if we're not trying to use them to win stuff now?

 

 

You see, this is where the logic of the argument falls down for me. No-one can give a definitive date on this idea of exactly how strong we should be for when we give the Cups a real good go - and no-one has been able to since we were promoted. Every single season I see the argument being made that we need to concentrate on the league "just this year", no matter what the context - whether we're challenging for the title or fighting relegation.

 

I guarantee the same arguments would continue to be made even if we were 10 points clear at the top at this stage of the season for the next two or three years. People are just so scared of how Cup runs will affect our league form when the reality is bottling out of them has done us absolutely no good in the league in recent years.

 

Clubs themselves are dictated by their financial worth these days sadly, so barely any. Supporters of those clubs though, like we are? I'd say the vast majority of matchgoing ones would definitely prefer the former - especially if the club they support has never won it before.

I don't think it's a case of not trying to win trophies - it's more about prioritising. I'm sure we'd love to always put out our strongest available XI in every game, but it's just not practical. When you've got two games a week and several players coming back from injury, you sometimes have to give players a rest, and decide which games they won't start in.

 

I don't know why you'd expect anyone to be able to give a definitive date. Asking exactly when we can go all out in all competitions is like asking exactly how long a piece of string is. I think the key is that we need the ability to rotate the squad without losing too much quality.

 

I think we've got great depth in defence now. With everyone fit, we'll have an excellent CB and an excellent full-back on the bench. When we have that same depth in midfield and up front, we'll be able to occasionally rest key players that we currently have to run into the ground. We'll be able to last the distance better.

 

How can you possibly know how bottling out of cups has affected us in the league in recent years? You've got nothing to compare it to.

 

I believe that we'll be a stronger club over the next few years. We're clearly way above average at scouting and recruiting, and also negotiating sales. You only have to look at the state of the squad post-2016 summer transfer window and compare to now to see how much progress we've made in such a short period of time. If we can just carry on for a year or two improving the squad at the same rate - and I see no reason to believe this won't happen - then I think we'll be a club much better placed to attack the cup competitions.

[dmayne7]

1 hour ago, coolhandfox said:

Wealth is important but not as important as a how you use it. Man U spend about 500m more on wages then Man City.

 

I'm sure Spurs have been having that conversation for a while. 

Of course it's not the be all and end all, but to have sustained success in football, you need money. We're in a golden situation where we have a really talented squad of young players but if we can't afford to keep them, then the pressure is on the replacement to perform at the same level at a fraction of the price. Yes, out recruitment has been amazing but it's also had a fair chunk of luck and the loss of one or 2 of these players means that whether we replace them for equal players at a cheaper price, is a huge risk.

 

As it stands we'd consider ourselves an established top 7/8 side but the fear is that the loss of some of these players could start a downward spiral and then we're falling closer to our historical profile. I feel that a few years of CL football would firmly establish us as a top 7/8 side that even if we lost those players, we'd have the resources to replace them, attract better players or overhaul the squad even if we had a couple of poorer seasons. Money and reputation are the key factors in having the means to achieve success. If you can then have a great structure throughout the club and box smartly, you will invariably achieve what you want.

[coolhandfox]

8 minutes ago, dmayne7 said:

Of course it's not the be all and end all, but to have sustained success in football, you need money. We're in a golden situation where we have a really talented squad of young players but if we can't afford to keep them, then the pressure is on the replacement to perform at the same level at a fraction of the price.

I don't think it's ever been about affording to keep them, we didn't sell Kante, Drinterwater, Mahrez, Maguire or Chilwell because we could'nt afford to keep them. They left because they want to play for clubs that had more of a chance of winning things and competing at the high level.

 

8 minutes ago, dmayne7 said:

 

 

Yes, out recruitment has been amazing but it's also had a fair chunk of luck and the loss of one or 2 of these players means that whether we replace them for equal players at a cheaper price, is a huge risk.

But we are always going to have to do that, even if we qualify for the CL two years running. 

 

8 minutes ago, dmayne7 said:

As it stands we'd consider ourselves an established top 7/8 side but the fear is that the loss of some of these players could start a downward spiral and then we're falling closer to our historical profile. I feel that a few years of CL football would firmly establish us as a top 7/8 side that even if we lost those players, we'd have the resources to replace them, attract better players or overhaul the squad even if we had a couple of poorer seasons. Money and reputation are the key factors in having the means to achieve success. If you can then have a great structure throughout the club and box smartly, you will invariably achieve what you want.

Money and reputation doesn't guarantee success, it makes it easier. Good leadership, planning and recruitment and planning will always be as important as money.

 

Not disagreeing with you by the way, just believe that winning trophies is as important as the securing 4th. 

[dynamark]

Good point players have left presumably because they feel success is somewhere else I doubt money is the main driver.

Maybe after this year that may change but its like any other profession some want to get to the very top.If Real Madrid went after Mahrez he would no doubt be interested

[dmayne7]

12 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

I don't think it's ever been about affording to keep them, we didn't sell Kante, Drinterwater, Mahrez, Maguire or Chilwell because we could'nt afford to keep them. They left because they want to play for clubs that had more of a chance of winning things and competing at the high level.

Sorry, I was being over simplistic. We could afford to keep them but their departures were necessary to further strengthen the squad which would be mitigated by the money of the CL. But yes, they also wanted to move to play CL and win things but the money was still a factor and if we were in the CL I don't think they'd have been sold or wanted to leave (well some of them, definitely still would have booted Maguire out for £80m )

 

17 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

But we are always going to have to do that, even if we qualify for the CL two years running. 

If we're just talking about being in the CL, then yes we will. But if we're talking about capitalising on being in the CL, our profile would grow massively, we'd start to create a worldwide following and hugely improve our corporate profile; all meaning we'd have much bigger revenue each year regardless of being in the CL or not. Of course you're right in that we'd still need to recruit well but it would be so much easier and much lower risk on each signing actually being any good.

 

21 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Money and reputation doesn't guarantee success, it makes it easier. Good leadership, planning and recruitment and planning will always be as important as money.

 

Not disagreeing with you by the way, just believe that winning trophies is as important as the securing 4th. 

Of course it does need a plan of all the above but the way football is now, you cannot have sustained success in the PL without money no matter how good the rest of your setup is. It's why Man United have still managed to win trophies and make the CL despite all the other factors being terrible. Even Arsenal who are an absolute shambles and not as rich as Man United, have still managed to get European football and win the FA Cup plenty. Then there's us, who are the antithesis of these teams. All the other factors are spot on but we don't have the finances to compete on an even playing field so despite all that, we've still not made it into the CL or won a trophy (excluding our title win as we're talking about prolonged success).

 

Oh yeah, I know you weren't and it's actually nice to have a reasoned debate. For what it's worth I've always been a romantic in that I'd love to win the FA Cup over all other trophies but that's kind of changed recently. Of course I'd rather win trophies than just look back and say we got into the CL 5 seasons or something, I'm just letting my head rule my heart here and thinking that CL football will give us a better chance of winning trophies over a longer period of time.

 

Or maybe we can just finish top 4 and win the FA Cup 

[PhillippaT]

3 hours ago, coolhandfox said:

100%

 

Strangely fans think the club makes a decision to not try and win things.

They don't?    They're actually interested in winning? Wow. I thought mid-table mediocrity and the occasional semi-final was the true goal of any non-big-six club  

[CosbehFox]

On 10/03/2021 at 11:51, filbertway said:

Finishing 4th over 38 games in a league where we're outspent by 7 or 8 clubs would be more impressive than winning 5/6 one off matches and winning a cup. Sneering at that achievement seems odd, especially when it would bring greater rewards to the club and allow us to improve more than any cup win would.

 

The longer we're knocking around the top 4, the better our squad becomes, the better our chances of progressing further in cups on a regular basis.

 

That being said, with the schedule now, there's no reason not to go all out in the league and FA cup at this point. The squad should be more than capable of it from this point.

To play devil's advocate, would the preference be that LCFC's most talented ever squad finish 4th (achieved by a number of LCFC teams throughout the history of the club) or win a FA Cup which has never been achieved ?

[filbertway]

1 minute ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

To play devil's advocate, would the preference be that LCFC's most talented ever squad finish 4th (achieved by a number of LCFC teams throughout the history of the club) or win a FA Cup which has never been achieved ?

Watching our team play champions league football would be more enjoyable for me than an FA Cup win i think. That Sevilla game was unbelievable. Testing ourselves against the very best in Europe is great fun.

 

The reason I used to hope for a cup win was because it was the most viable route into Europe. 

[CosbehFox]

3 minutes ago, filbertway said:

Watching our team play champions league football would be more enjoyable for me than an FA Cup win i think. That Sevilla game was unbelievable. Testing ourselves against the very best in Europe is great fun.

 

The reason I used to hope for a cup win was because it was the most viable route into Europe. 

I ask that cos living in Birmingham, post Villa semi-final loss, I had plenty of their fans tell me 'don't worry, you'll be in the Champions League anyway'. The reality is that we are still Leicester City and the trophy room is hardly bursting. It's the greatest spell in this clubs history and I just find it disappointing we appear eager to toss away any achievement rewarding that. Chances for deep progression don't come around regularly. 

 

I do agree with testing ourselves against the best in Europe. Slight annoyance we've yet to an absolute giant other than Atleti. 

 

To aside, I am not fixed on the idea that the CL adds prestige to a club as a single entity. For example, do Spurs signed any players they wouldn't have otherwise? Equally the same could apply to Atlético and a whole host of teams in that lower rung. I don't see Atalanta for example suddenly progressing substantially after two seasons of consecutive CL football (funnily enough they are in their second Coppa Italia final and appear absolute intent on getting a trophy to crown their current manager/squad). I could use Villarreal, Leverkusen, Borussia Monchengladbach and Lille as other examples of provincial clubs who have regularly qualified for the Champions League but are probably no bigger than they already were. There is Schalke and Deportivo too..

 

The irony is what the CL probably does do is give you a greater standing domestic but not into a larger club by any stretch. We'd still be targeting the same players - West Ham and Everton would still be bidding but we'd have a slight advantage. 

[filbertway]

49 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

I ask that cos living in Birmingham, post Villa semi-final loss, I had plenty of their fans tell me 'don't worry, you'll be in the Champions League anyway'. The reality is that we are still Leicester City and the trophy room is hardly bursting. It's the greatest spell in this clubs history and I just find it disappointing we appear eager to toss away any achievement rewarding that. Chances for deep progression don't come around regularly. 

 

I do agree with testing ourselves against the best in Europe. Slight annoyance we've yet to an absolute giant other than Atleti. 

 

To aside, I am not fixed on the idea that the CL adds prestige to a club as a single entity. For example, do Spurs signed any players they wouldn't have otherwise? Equally the same could apply to Atlético and a whole host of teams in that lower rung. I don't see Atalanta for example suddenly progressing substantially after two seasons of consecutive CL football (funnily enough they are in their second Coppa Italia final and appear absolute intent on getting a trophy to crown their current manager/squad). I could use Villarreal, Leverkusen, Borussia Monchengladbach and Lille as other examples of provincial clubs who have regularly qualified for the Champions League but are probably no bigger than they already were. There is Schalke and Deportivo too..

 

The irony is what the CL probably does do is give you a greater standing domestic but not into a larger club by any stretch. We'd still be targeting the same players - West Ham and Everton would still be bidding but we'd have a slight advantage. 

What it does is gives us the best possible chance to cement ourself as a highly rated european outfit on a regular basis. Under this club there seems to be a genuine plan to progress in small increments. If we're a team that's considered likely to be in an around the top 4 each season then we gradually build a squad that is capable of battling of 3 or 4 fronts.

 

As I say, there's no reason we can't finish top 4 and win the FA cup this season. We can play out strongest team every game (whatever that may be). I don't believe in "resting" players for fear of picking up a random injury. I absolutely do believe in not allowing players to burn out by playing too much football. It'll be really interesting to see how Youri does next season, he'll have been ran into the ground by club and country for near on a year by the time August comes around.

 

If I had a choice of European football, a Stadium expansion and continual improvement of the squad for the next 5 seasons, or winning an FA cup followed by 5 seasons of finish 8th-14th, I'd pick the former every day.

 

Luckily it doesn't have to be one of the other, but given the option I'd pick champions league qualification over the FA Cup every day of the week

 

 

[Hoopla10]

7 hours ago, weller54 said:

Yes, it wasn't the likes of Kante, Mahrez , Vards who won us that title...

I can't believe its not Budda.

I tend to feel the same at times about that season. The overwhelming positive energy that was directed at the club from around the world I feel would have had an impact. That's not negating the actions of the players but who's to say they didn't feed off that energy or it contributed to the feeling of momentum. I've for a long time felt somebody should write about Buddhism and football (from the act of playing, following and the larger state of leagues/seasons) because there's a weird number of parallels.  From Dukkha to Samsara (sp?). 

[cruzFOX]

I keep saying this so I’ll say it yet again. MENTALITY!  If the players have the belief and the hunger the effort and performance will follow. No matter the obstacle they will find a way.

Teams that go into games against superior (on paper) opposition with the belief they are not good enough to be there let alone win they will fail 99% of the time. If the belief is the opposite the game changes. We have to go to battle with the aim to win and justify we deserve to be taken seriously. OGS will be setting his team up to take us seriously as he knows what could happen if they take us lightly. So yes we can progress in the FA cup and take that confidence into progressing in the league. If we are to meet our new ambition we have to match it in every way and strive to succeed. That my mr. Motivator talk over 😜

[Corky]

It is pretty clear that we couldn't compete fully on three fronts. We have a maximum of two more matches to play to win the FA Cup with no long travelling. 7 to win the Europa League- I think that would've stretched the squad too much.

 

Rodgers will put everything into each match, league and cup, from now.

[NewEnglandFox]

I really hate this mentality. Just piss off the domestic cups and Europe to get a Champions League or Europa League participation trophy to hope to return to those competitions the next season to once again consider them distractions themselves.

 

I said it in another thread last week. The top 6 play 55+ games a season. To sustain those squads that can go deep in Europe and rest players every league game they also have to use the league cup and early FA cup rounds to give games to those fringe players who then turn into league starters on European game weeks. I think it's a circle that you can't build for. We shouldn't have the players or the payroll for 10 more games in our season. We need to break the circle which we have and act like we belong. But we bloody don't.

[HighPeakFox]

1 minute ago, NewEnglandFox said:

I really hate this mentality. 

Which mentality, specifically? 

[NewEnglandFox]

3 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

Which mentality, specifically? 

Thinking it's a good thing to bust out of competitions in our current season to achieve Champions League/Europa. Then the next season thinking it's a good thing to bust out of Europa.

 

Maybe it's how I wrote it? IDK?

 

Edited 11 March 2021 by NewEnglandFox

[HighPeakFox]

1 minute ago, NewEnglandFox said:

Thinking it's a good thing to bust out of competitions in our current season to achieve Champions League/Europa. Then the next season thinking it's a good thing to bust out of Europa.

 

Maybe it's how I wrote it? IDK?

 

I was just checking so I knew what I was responding to. 

 

I think some people are better at communicating what they mean than others, likewise some are better at reading than others. I don't think many are fans of losing anything, really. Some of us appear to think that on this occasion, given circumstances and the injuries, it might turn out in our favour. In other words, there is empathy for the mitigating circumstances.

 

I tire of the mentality that cannot imagine that this season is an outlier, utterly exceptional, and forgets that the players, although elite athletes etc, are still human.