Ukraine

[LiberalFox]

I don't trust the Russians on humanitarian corridors, can't help but feel they are happy for the civilians to be used as a distraction and a bargaining tool. After all Kharkiv was hit by indiscriminate rocket attacks using cluster munitions right before the first round of negotiations were held. 

 

They know that the defenders of Mariupol are disadvantaged by the presence of lots of hungry wounded and desperate civilians. Those civilians are currently depleting food, water and medical supplies. We all know that the Ukrainian military will defend to the end if it's between them and the enemy, but they may be forced to surrender if their families are being blown to bits or starving to death. 

[The Horse's Mouth]

14 minutes ago, Izzy said:

Rightly or wrongly we 'liberated' the people of Iraq from Sadam Hussein did we not?

 

With all these Russian protests and Putin clearly a whack job, do the Russian people not need liberating too?

 

In my simplistic view we send the F15's in to bomb the fvck out of Russia's military bases, drop the SAS in to take Putin and his cronies out, and then send in peace keeping troops to run the place until Russia is back on it's feet with a proper leader.

 

I'm not convinced the Russian Army are loyal to Putin so maybe they'd happily surrender and be glad to see the back of him.

 

I dunno. Too simplistic I'm sure and probably many reasons why this can't happen, but sitting back and doing fvck feels all wrong.

 

Yeah and Iraq got worse, Russia getting worse with a nuclear arsenal seems like a good idea.

[The Horse's Mouth]

Mariupol is where the neo Nazi brigade is right? Least one good thing could come out of this

[Izzy]

13 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Well the main problem is Russia have enough nuclear bombs to wipe out every person in non-Russia Europe and the US combined. 

People are scared if Putin is fenced into a corner then he might want to use them.

 

2 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

Yeah and Iraq got worse, Russia getting worse with a nuclear arsenal seems like a good idea.

I guess it's not possible to wipe Putin and his cronies out before they gets chance to use them then?

 

I hoped that with Stealth bombers and Black Ops type interventions we could get to him before he could press the button, but obvs not the case it seems...

[The Horse's Mouth]

2 minutes ago, Izzy said:

 

I guess it's not possible to wipe Putin and his cronies out before they gets chance to use them then?

 

I hoped that with Stealth bombers and Black Ops type interventions we could get to him before he could press the button, but obvs not the case it seems...

Even if we did it as clean as you could dream of, it's very naive that his replacements as well as the Russian people would just accept their government being wiped out and taking on board western values which don't belong in Russia really 

 

And even then, I don't think China would be happy with one of their biggest allies effectively being couped by NATO 

Edited 6 March 2022 by The Horse's Mouth

[Izzy]

3 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

Even if we did it as clean as you could dream of, it's very naive that his replacements as well as the Russian people would just accept their government being wiped out and taking on board western values which don't belong in Russia really 

 

And even then, I don't think China would be happy with one of their biggest allies effectively being couped by NATO 

Maybe those Russians protesting (and those who are too scared to) want to take on board western values rather than live in fear 

[The Horse's Mouth]

7 minutes ago, Izzy said:

Maybe those Russians protesting (and those who are too scared to) want to take on board western values rather than live in fear 

I'd say flip this on its head on what you're proposing and if it was the Russians wiping out our government and insisting we take in their values, I don't think you'd be all for it either 

[worthosoriginals]

4 hours ago, Sampson said:

Apparently I am the author of this thread. I don't remember making it. 

Too much to drink maybe? 

[MPH]

1 hour ago, Tommy Fresh said:

I'm not Pro-Trump or even remotely that way inclined, but it's very easy to sit from an outside perspective and ridicule. Clearly there were huge parts of the US that felt he was a good option for them for whatever reason, as baffling as it may seem to us.

 

there’s so many Americans who are ‘ economy first’ and that was Trumps strength. He lowered  business taxes, income tax , increased American production of oil which brought cheaper gas. People unfortunately didn’t care they had a sexual predator  ( allegedly )  in office just as long as they had $20 extra in their pocket each week.

[Foxdiamond]

1 hour ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

Even if we did it as clean as you could dream of, it's very naive that his replacements as well as the Russian people would just accept their government being wiped out and taking on board western values which don't belong in Russia really 

 

And even then, I don't think China would be happy with one of their biggest allies effectively being couped by NATO 

No way could any this work. 

[Tommy Fresh]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

Rightly or wrongly we 'liberated' the people of Iraq from Sadam Hussein did we not?

 

With all these Russian protests and Putin clearly a whack job, do the Russian people not need liberating too?

 

In my simplistic view we send the F15's in to bomb the fvck out of Russia's military bases, drop the SAS in to take Putin and his cronies out, and then send in peace keeping troops to run the place until Russia is back on it's feet with a proper leader.

 

I'm not convinced the Russian Army are loyal to Putin so maybe they'd happily surrender and be glad to see the back of him.

 

I dunno. Too simplistic I'm sure and probably many reasons why this can't happen, but sitting back and doing fvck feels all wrong.

 

Key issue with Iraq was all we really did was destabilise it even further.

[Carl the Llama]

1 minute ago, Tommy Fresh said:

Key issue with Iraq was all we really did was destabilise it even further.

The trouble with Arsenal is they always try to walk it into the net.

[Tommy Fresh]

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

This is probably off-topic to continue, but I'll keep it short.

 

I think the motivations of those who thought he was a good option aren't all that baffling. Understanding those motivations, however, doesn't excuse them or the effects they have had.

I was responding to a point about Trump getting in to office being a mystery, when from over here it's fairly clear what a terrible person/option he was/is.

[Foxdiamond]

Just now, Tommy Fresh said:

Key issue with Iraq was all we really did was destabilise it even further.

This is correct and that is without the nuclear issue.  Cool heads will have to prevail. We cannot get involved directly as much as this is what some seem desperate for. One one thing worse than a war in Ukraine will be full European war.

[weller54]

Just now, Foxdiamond said:

This is correct and that is without the nuclear issue.  Cool heads will have to prevail. We cannot get involved directly as much as this is what some seem desperate for. One one thing worse than a war in Ukraine will be full European war.

IF Putin stops at Ukraine!..

How about Finland, Poland, Estonia next?..

Let him take them as well if he threatens escalation?

[Tommy Fresh]

4 minutes ago, weller54 said:

IF Putin stops at Ukraine!..

How about Finland, Poland, Estonia next?..

Let him take them as well if he threatens escalation?

As stated before he is very unlikely to invade or attack a NATO nation, aware Finland isn't. I did reference the West's supply of weapons to Ukraine in one of the many other threads in relation to Putins real apetite to engage NATO in the conflict. In all honesty if he wanted it with NATO, he'd be using that as an excuse but he's well aware the US by themselves would ruin them.

Edited 6 March 2022 by Tommy Fresh

[The Horse's Mouth]

5 minutes ago, weller54 said:

IF Putin stops at Ukraine!..

How about Finland, Poland, Estonia next?..

Let him take them as well if he threatens escalation?

Don't think he'd go for finland with all the history 

[SpacedX]

1 hour ago, MPH said:

 

there’s so many Americans who are ‘ economy first’ and that was Trumps strength. He lowered  business taxes, income tax , increased American production of oil which brought cheaper gas. People unfortunately didn’t care they had a sexual predator  ( allegedly )  in office just as long as they had $20 extra in their pocket each week.

This is a grave concern once gasoline goes to an unprecedented $5 at the pump. Despite the fact that 70% of Russian oil is struggling to find a buyer, an embargo is still on the table. This could push the price of crude up to $150 a barrel ffs. Fox News are already blaming Biden for inflation, fuel prices and the war. It's the marginal voters that could swing this I'm afraid and with right wing nutjobs such as Jordan, Taylor, Gaetz, Boebert, De Santis, Cruz, Gosar and Greene waing in the wings, the Russian troll farms will be relentlessly harvesting the idiots and stoking up support for Trumpism through another blitz on social media.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/01/why-does-putin-have-superfans-among-the-us-right-wing

 

Although as I keep suggesting, the greater struggle against global temperature rise is temporarily drowned out and obscured by the fog of war, perhaps the current crisis can hasten our move away from a dependence on fossil fuels and speed up the development/introduction of renewables and green alternatives. And the urgency of this is yet another reason why the reelection of Trump would be a global catastrophe. 

Edited 6 March 2022 by Line-X

[Trumpet]

8 minutes ago, Tommy Fresh said:

As stated before he is very unlikely to invade or attack a NATO nation, aware Finland isn't. I did reference the West's supply of weapons to Ukraine in one of the many other threads in relation to Putins real apetite to engage NATO in the conflict. In all honesty if he wanted it with NATO, he'd be using that as an excuse but he's well aware the US by themselves would ruin them.

Agree with this. If Putin had ambitions further than Ukraine, especially in the short term, he wouldn’t have let his economy tank by doing what he’s done in Ukraine whilst also taking on the expense of the war and amassing his troops around Ukraine for months. I genuinely don’t think this goes further than Ukraine. I buy into the theory that Putins days are numbered and this is his legacy.

Edited 6 March 2022 by Trumpet

[Foxdiamond]

11 minutes ago, weller54 said:

IF Putin stops at Ukraine!..

How about Finland, Poland, Estonia next?..

Let him take them as well if he threatens escalation?

I have said before there has always been a line (Nato) not to cross. The days when the UK or US could police the world have gone.

[David Hankey]

I've no doubt folk will start saying soon that we have to feel sorry for Putin. He is, supposedly, terminally ill and doesn't really know his own state of mind.

 

Well, I say not a bit of it. His outlandish statements with him now saying he is not targeting residential and women and children, well who is?

 

He is obviously out of control and will not listen to a sensible voices.

[MPH]

35 minutes ago, Line-X said:

This is a grave concern once gasoline goes to an unprecedented $5 at the pump. Despite the fact that 70% of Russian oil is struggling to find a buyer, an embargo is still on the table. This could push the price of crude up to $150 a barrel ffs. Fox News are already blaming Biden for inflation, fuel prices and the war. It's the marginal voters that could swing this I'm afraid and with right wing nutjobs such as Jordan, Taylor, Gaetz, Boebert, De Santis, Cruz, Gosar and Greene waing in the wings, the Russian troll farms will be relentlessly harvesting the idiots and stoking up support for Trumpism through another blitz on social media.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/01/why-does-putin-have-superfans-among-the-us-right-wing

 

Although as I keep suggesting, the greater struggle against global temperature rise is temporarily drowned out and obscured by the fog of war, perhaps the current crisis can hasten our move away from a dependence on fossil fuels and speed up the development/introduction of renewables and green alternatives. And the urgency of this is yet another reason why the reelection of Trump would be a global catastrophe. 

 

I wouldn’t say that Trump WANTS this war with Russia going on but it certainly plays into his hand. he’s self indulgent enough to be licking his lips as the rising costs  and rising fuel prices… because then along comes the savior of America, etc..

[LiberalFox]

I think people need to stop talking about Russia and focus on Ukraine. We have little agency over Russia but we can influence the situation in Ukraine and we can support the Ukrainian people. I know not everyone is deadly serious but there are way too many people calling for assassinations or escalation etc. It makes me realise how for all our supposed sophistication, the west reaches for violent solutions very quickly, we also vastly overestimate our own capability to achieve political aims through military action. 

[bovril]

4 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

I wouldn’t say that Trump WANTS this war with Russia going on but it certainly plays into his hand. he’s self indulgent enough to be licking his lips as the rising costs  and rising fuel prices… because then along comes the savior of America, etc..

I think it's seriously damaged his reelection chances. Same with Macrons challengers in France.

[MPH]

4 minutes ago, David Hankey said:

I've no doubt folk will start saying soon that we have to feel sorry for Putin. He is, supposedly, terminally ill and doesn't really know his own state of mind.

 

Well, I say not a bit of it. His outlandish statements with him now saying he is not targeting residential and women and children, well who is?

 

He is obviously out of control and will not listen to a sensible voices.

 

I shared this  possibility several days ago in the first war thread…. But what I will say is that there were many rumor flying around several months ago that Kim Jong- un had suffered a massive heart attack and had died on the operating table.. lots of reports saying he was dead but a few weeks later he reappears.  So In other words, there will need to be some concrete proof first before we heartily accept the idea…