High Press or Low Block?

[LFox99]

James Lawrence Alcott on youtube did a neat, though superficial, analysis of what our problems are currently. 

Essentially we should stop this 433 nonsense because it leaves our right flank completely exposed because it's just Castagne getting up and down while Maddison who on paper plays in front of him will always drift inside. 
Play a 4231 with a double pivot of Ndidi/ Tielemans or Ndidi/ KDH and Madders as pure #10 because even when playing in a mess of a team he's still shining, so please just let him play in his very best position and work his magic. Put either Sharky or Perez out on the RW, their presence there will provide us with some much needed width down the right because it's genuinely non-existent currently. Also stop insisting on dominating the ball and playing a high line. Some teams like Tottenham want their opponents to do exactly that, Kane can simply drop deep and then hit passes over the top into Son/ Kulusevski/ Richarlison just like he did on the weekend. Meanwhile Sporting absolutely took Spurs attack out of the game by just sitting back and letting them pass around in front of them but not letting anything go in behind. 

You might say we'd cripple ourselves by leaving one of Youri or KDH out of the side but what do we have 5 subs for this year?! Bring on KDH/ Youri at 60 minutes

[Phenom]

We’re even less suited for a low block than a high press.

 

Our CBs are soft and bad in the air, our midfielders are soft and slow, we have only one winger (and he’s often injured) and Vardy is on a steep decline. Oh yeah, and we’re historically bad at defending corners and set pieces. Also, extremely lethargic.

[KFS]

Low block and counter PLEASE

[Phenom]

14 minutes ago, Phenom said:

We’re even less suited for a low block than a high press.

 

Our CBs are soft and bad in the air, our midfielders are soft and slow, we have only one winger (and he’s often injured) and Vardy is on a steep decline. Oh yeah, and we’re historically bad at defending corners and set pieces. Also, extremely lethargic.

Oh, and our keeper is shambolic.

[Tom12345]

We need Morgan back as coach. Our defence was great until he retired, even up to the last season he was here when he was mostly on the bench.

[Dan]

5 hours ago, LFox99 said:

James Lawrence Alcott on youtube did a neat, though superficial, analysis of what our problems are currently. 

Essentially we should stop this 433 nonsense because it leaves our right flank completely exposed because it's just Castagne getting up and down while Maddison who on paper plays in front of him will always drift inside. 
Play a 4231 with a double pivot of Ndidi/ Tielemans or Ndidi/ KDH and Madders as pure #10 because even when playing in a mess of a team he's still shining, so please just let him play in his very best position and work his magic. Put either Sharky or Perez out on the RW, their presence there will provide us with some much needed width down the right because it's genuinely non-existent currently. Also stop insisting on dominating the ball and playing a high line. Some teams like Tottenham want their opponents to do exactly that, Kane can simply drop deep and then hit passes over the top into Son/ Kulusevski/ Richarlison just like he did on the weekend. Meanwhile Sporting absolutely took Spurs attack out of the game by just sitting back and letting them pass around in front of them but not letting anything go in behind. 

You might say we'd cripple ourselves by leaving one of Youri or KDH out of the side but what do we have 5 subs for this year?! Bring on KDH/ Youri at 60 minutes

We're crippled regardless. We have to radically change how we set up, even if it means leaving out somebody we think is key.

 

I watched that video, it was quite good really for a neutral.

[AKCJ]

12 hours ago, An Away Move said:

If I were an incoming manager I'd be tempted to go back to basics and make us difficult to beat.

It really is one of the great mysteries. Why doesn't Brendan simply make us tough to beat???

[Dames]

The team isn't fit enough to press. They can barely get through 90 minutes doing the slow laboured play they are now, introducing a press would put some of them on life support.

 

Ideally once fit we should be a pressing team. We aren't physical enough to play a low block and rough the other team up but once the players are up to speed we have plenty who can harass and pest the ball to turn it over. 

[Pete from the USA]

I fell in love with Leicester watching them reach the quarter finals in the Champions League playing a low block while all the other teams were running in circles trying to tiki-taka. There was beauty in the way we used to win ugly. Wish we'd do that again.

 

Set pieces: Just hire a coach and practice. We can do this. 

 

So I guess I'm in favor of Dyche at the moment since he'd get us defending again.

[Lesta Legend]

10 hours ago, LFox99 said:

James Lawrence Alcott on youtube did a neat, though superficial, analysis of what our problems are currently. 

Essentially we should stop this 433 nonsense because it leaves our right flank completely exposed because it's just Castagne getting up and down while Maddison who on paper plays in front of him will always drift inside. 
Play a 4231 with a double pivot of Ndidi/ Tielemans or Ndidi/ KDH and Madders as pure #10 because even when playing in a mess of a team he's still shining, so please just let him play in his very best position and work his magic. Put either Sharky or Perez out on the RW, their presence there will provide us with some much needed width down the right because it's genuinely non-existent currently. Also stop insisting on dominating the ball and playing a high line. Some teams like Tottenham want their opponents to do exactly that, Kane can simply drop deep and then hit passes over the top into Son/ Kulusevski/ Richarlison just like he did on the weekend. Meanwhile Sporting absolutely took Spurs attack out of the game by just sitting back and letting them pass around in front of them but not letting anything go in behind. 

You might say we'd cripple ourselves by leaving one of Youri or KDH out of the side but what do we have 5 subs for this year?! Bring on KDH/ Youri at 60 minutes

Makes sense right and am sure Rodger’s is bright enough to at least know these options exist. But he plays a certain way and won’t deviate from that philosophy and will take us down dying on that hill. 

[lcfcbluearmy]

13 hours ago, An Away Move said:

If I were an incoming manager I'd be tempted to go back to basics and make us difficult to beat. When we came up in 2014 we never got spanked and rarely lost by more than one goal I think. I think the high press is currently exacerbating our defensive frailties. With a low block and a shift to counter attacking I think we have enough up front to nick more wins than playing via Rodger's current tactics. I'm sure if Dyche came in this would be his starting point.

 

However, if we play in a low block and defensively I imagine we could concede quite a few more corners! Gulp!

 

What to do? 

 

Would you be tempted by the the former? Or stick with?

The problem is we do neither our attackers drop back to low block so leave the opposition space in their half and the defence push forward to press leaving space in behind and over the top. 

 

It needs sorting I'd prefer a high press but just a proper version of either would be good

[Blue Ed]

Until we play Albrighton and stop the inverted full back experiment. I don't care what block we are playing. 

[FoxinNotts]

Low Press please

[LVFox]

Low block but high press once they reach our half.

 

Evans cannot play in a high block, and we aren’t defensively organised enough to compensate that.

 

Problem is we then need pace in the side. Daka is the only pacey threat whilst Harvey Barnes is playing like Harvey Price

[Finnegan]

The two aren't mutually exclusive, this isn't Football Manager, you don't have to set binary values to how you want to play. 

 

Ideally we'd have the intelligence to press reactively as to context. When there's the opportunity to stay on the front foot, press high and win the ball back, we should be doing that. 

 

When we need to drop, draw an opponent on and counter effectively we should be doing that. 

 

But even a "low" block should involve active pressing in the right areas of the pitch. Our problem is we're just fvcking passive as hell and sit there not really doing a lot defensively at all, hence the embarrassingly low sprint and distance stats. 

[StriderHiryu]

13 hours ago, OntarioFox said:

Low block, counter with pace. We have the players for it. Barnes, Daka, even a properly managed Vardy feeding off fast through balls? We'll score shedloads and concede waaaaay less.

 

We don't get the space to be effective because our wanky possession for the sake of it game means other teams don't need to commit bodies forwards and nullify us easily unless someone pulls a moment of magic out of their arse, á la Madders at Spurs on Saturday. We have always been most successful in this stay in the Prem when we invite pressure, do the basics and punish them on the break. Even our best runs and results under Rodgers and Puel have come when we ripped the rule book up and reverted to pur strengths - anyone remember Rodgers complaining when we beat West Brom comfortably with counter attacking footy and he was unhappy with the 'style' of the win? That was two years ago. The warning signs were there that long ago.

 

Don't know about you folks, but the most depressing part of our decline has been seeing teams steamroller us with exactly the same tactics we used to employ. I thought it as long ago as home against Palace in Puelball days, and it's been proven many, many times during Brendan's over-welcome stay in the dug out.

 

It's probably a fringe opinion, but I firmly believe us (and Atletico Madrid) were responsible for the sea change in tactics across top flight football. We killed tiki-taka by proving that discipline and a fast counter could kill what many thought was peak football.

 

Counter attacking football with high workrate is a recipe for success. It's frankly insane that Rodgers is trying to turn us into a side playing a style that we ourselves were at least partially responsible for ending the dominance of. Ranieri tried it, Puel tried it and now he's refusing to let it go.

 

We are NOT a possession side. It's shite, it flies in the face of everything we spent ten years building. Let Rodgers go, then get with the times before we're deservedly left behind by a wave we helped create. 

When Rodgers first came in he got the high press working really effectively for us. It did work really well for a while. It's fair to say the really top teams dominate games and that's something we would need to do if we ever wanted to challenge for the title again. 

 

But since 2020, most teams in the league have been playing that way too. They have been getting better at it, whilst we have got significantly worse at it.

 

Given we aren't willing to spend money, I agree that the best tactical setup we can use right now is to play a counter attacking style. Ironically Spurs did exactly that to us. We had 54% possession but conceded 6 as they lethally took us apart from set pieces and counter attacks.

We are back to being mid-table at best, we should not be playing in such a suicidal manner anymore.

[Finnegan]

37 minutes ago, LVocey said:

Problem is we then need pace in the side. Daka is the only pacey threat whilst Harvey Barnes is playing like Harvey Price

 

Pace is less important than organisation. Okazaki, Mahrez and Albrighton aren't/weren't rapid but the title winning team was just as capable of high pressing as it was low blocking. 

 

The 15/16 side is a great example of what I mean when I say we should be doing both in context. There's times that year we pressed and harried all over the pitch and swarmed teams.

 

I remember going to Newcastle away and for a large spell in that game they literally couldn't get out of their own half because we were absolutely all over them. Then we went to Tottenham away, barely left our half and won 1-0 from a set piece. We had the organisation to do both. 

 

Look at Man City, they've got plenty of players that aren't absolutely rapid but they're still probably the most efficient presses in the league because their shape is so well organised. Everyone knows Pep is great at coaching a team with the ball but they often sleep on the fact he's probably the best in the world at coaching a team without it, too. In fact, the whole point of tiki taka is that if you lose the ball you rarely have to travel far to win it back in numbers. 

 

But going back to our title winning team, whether deep or high we pressed and actively looked to win the ball back. We desperately need to be doing that now. It's why I'm utterly baffled by people who equate Dyche to good defensive football. He's not a great defensive coach at all, he's a park the bus and pray merchant. Look at how many times his team got routinely dicked on every year vs Man City compared to how well teams that actively press them and try to counter do. 

 

Passive defending is bullshit and we don't ever want that. 

 

Edited 21 September 2022 by Finnegan

[An Away Move]

30 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

But even a "low" block should involve active pressing in the right areas of the pitch. Our problem is we're just fvcking passive as hell and sit there not really doing a lot defensively at all, hence the embarrassingly low sprint and distance stats. 

I've been thinking for ages that part of this equation comes down to running. I'd love to see our stats for sprints. When Moyes first went to West Ham he said they were bottom of the league for sprint stats and transformed them by addressing it.

Edited 21 September 2022 by An Away Move

[Finnegan]

1 minute ago, An Away Move said:

I'd love to see our stats for sprints

 

I promise you you wouldn't 

[Shane]

We need to sort out the fullbacks positioning. Rodgers tactic of having them bomb forward at every opportunity is not working and its leaving us exposed. 
 

Obviously we don’t want them sitting back all game but they need to be smarter and choose the right moment to get forward. Justin in particular, is playing like a headless chicken.

 

 

Edited 21 September 2022 by Shane

[Lako42]

We aren't fit enough to do a high press. 

 

 

We consistently look laboured and sluggish 

[mozartfox]

I think Rogers No Press and No Block needs changing, unless that is we are waiting for a Royal Flush of 2-4, 2-5. 2-6 & 2-7

Edited 21 September 2022 by mozartfox

[Fear Of The Fox]

Low block and gegen at certain times when we lose the ball. Me and others post the same thing in every single pre match thread with formations and roles. I can't be bothered anymore. We won't see any of this with Rodgers. 

I also don't like it when others say "it's not Football Manager". Yes it's not but this doesn't mean there aren't any fans that have good tactical knowledge of the sport. 

[Leeds Fox]

The massive issue for me with a low block, is that winning first and more importantly, second balls is imperative. 
 

We are so weak as a squad, I can’t see it being effective. Although a defence in those situations always has the statistical advantage as winning the ball can be much less precise than the attacking team. Winning the ball just seems something we can’t do unfortunately. 
 

Many teams would have a field day if we let them play balls into our box for 90 minutes.

 

Saying all of that, it surely couldn’t be any worse than what we’re seeing currently. 

[StriderHiryu]

2 hours ago, Shane said:

We need to sort out the fullbacks positioning. Rodgers tactic of having them bomb forward at every opportunity is not working and its leaving us exposed. 
 

Obviously we don’t want them sitting back all game but they need to be smarter and choose the right moment to get forward. Justin in particular, is playing like a headless chicken.

 

 

Maddison starts wide but drifts in. Castagne pushes up behind him. End result? Acres of space behind Castagne for any opponent to use. 
 

This tactic can work but needs better defensive organisation on the turn over. Instead Justin is equally far forward and no one else is rapid enough to cover.