Will Alves

[davieG]

1 hour ago, st albans fox said:

Young kids find it difficult to get playing time in a struggling or winning team that is going for a rewarding position.

 

[deep blue]

Interesting to read the report of Ben Nelson's first game for Oxford at the weekend.  Their manager aware of his lack of game time and his need to bed into the match. Apparently took 20 mins to settle but then played superbly in a v solid defensive display. Apparently insisted on a loan away as he could see he was going to be given v little pitch time at Leicester.

 

My point is that, looking at Alves and other promising youngsters, it is awful management to keep them in the squad but giving them no match time.  It can surely only get them frustrated and see them losing their edge, sharpness, enehusia sm.  Surely better to take a risk and give them at least the occasional minutes on the pitch. 

 

Their is always a balance to consider the long term interests of the club as well as the immediate.

[cityfanlee23]

5 minutes ago, deep blue said:

Interesting to read the report of Ben Nelson's first game for Oxford at the weekend.  Their manager aware of his lack of game time and his need to bed into the match. Apparently took 20 mins to settle but then played superbly in a v solid defensive display. Apparently insisted on a loan away as he could see he was going to be given v little pitch time at Leicester.

 

My point is that, looking at Alves and other promising youngsters, it is awful management to keep them in the squad but giving them no match time.  It can surely only get them frustrated and see them losing their edge, sharpness, enehusia sm.  Surely better to take a risk and give them at least the occasional minutes on the pitch. 

 

There is always a balance to consider the long term interests of the club as well as the immediate.

The sad part is, the time to have brought these players in like Nelson and Braybrooke was under Enzo. I said when we got relegated that the silver lining was a financial reset of sorts, and the ability to bring through our young players, Alves obviously got injured but there was plenty of opportunity to give Nelson/Braybrooke game time especially in games we won quite comfortably. That missed opportunity could very well end their careers here, we could very easily get into a cycle where we just about scrape survival this season, and once again can’t risk having 2-3 young players on the pitch in the premier league, the only hope we have now of those 3 having a career at Leicester is to send them on loan, or for us to somehow solidify ourselves as a safe top 12 club that has 15 points of daylight between us and relegation where we can afford to start giving them 20 minutes here and there. 
 

I can see all 3 of Braybrooke, Alves and Nelson ending up having their early career completely wasted here sadly.

[Jobyfox]

I’ve read on this thread that we don’t treat our youngsters well. Historically I’m not sure that is the case. Chilwell, Barnes, Thomas, Choudhury, KDH and McAteer have all broken through into the first team with various degrees of success. 
 

I do agree that there is no point having a player in a PL squad if there is little hope of them playing. Those players above benefited considerably from Championship loans. 
 

I do have a slight nagging doubt, however, whether we overate some of these players. I can’t immediately think of many young players that didn’t break through here that have gone on to great things at the highest level, but plenty that are now plying their trade in the lower leagues. I suppose the only way to find out is for them to play 

[Tommy Fresh]

22 minutes ago, cityfanlee23 said:

The sad part is, the time to have brought these players in like Nelson and Braybrooke was under Enzo. I said when we got relegated that the silver lining was a financial reset of sorts, and the ability to bring through our young players, Alves obviously got injured but there was plenty of opportunity to give Nelson/Braybrooke game time especially in games we won quite comfortably. That missed opportunity could very well end their careers here, we could very easily get into a cycle where we just about scrape survival this season, and once again can’t risk having 2-3 young players on the pitch in the premier league, the only hope we have now of those 3 having a career at Leicester is to send them on loan, or for us to somehow solidify ourselves as a safe top 12 club that has 15 points of daylight between us and relegation where we can afford to start giving them 20 minutes here and there. 
 

I can see all 3 of Braybrooke, Alves and Nelson ending up having their early career completely wasted here sadly.

Braybrooke was injured as well for a large part wasn't he

[filbertway]

1 hour ago, davieG said:

Young kids find it difficult to get playing time in a struggling or winning team that is going for a rewarding position.

This ^^ 

 

Even when we were mid table it was people saying we can't possible try and develop our players because each position is worth x amount.

 

A club can either have a philosophy of developing youth or not. We very clearly ere on the side of "not".

 

You generally either need to be 6ft plus or have a mortgage and 3 kids before you're given a chance here.

[davieG]

1 hour ago, deep blue said:

Interesting to read the report of Ben Nelson's first game for Oxford at the weekend.  Their manager aware of his lack of game time and his need to bed into the match. Apparently took 20 mins to settle but then played superbly in a v solid defensive display. Apparently insisted on a loan away as he could see he was going to be given v little pitch time at Leicester.

 

My point is that, looking at Alves and other promising youngsters, it is awful management to keep them in the squad but giving them no match time.  It can surely only get them frustrated and see them losing their edge, sharpness, enehusia sm.  Surely better to take a risk and give them at least the occasional minutes on the pitch. 

 

Their is always a balance to consider the long term interests of the club as well as the immediate.

Then by the time they get some minutes they are so out of match fitness etc, which is tough enough if you're a seasoned pro and put in a less than an acceptable performance and then finding it difficult to get another chance as even some fans will be moaning why they are playing.

[urban.spaceman]

7 hours ago, Webbo said:

Does anyone remember Leyton Ndukwu or Sidnei Tavares?

 

"He played so little and was so irrelevant in games, that my photographer Mark Shaiken doesn’t have a good close up picture of him. The photo at the top of this page is the best one we could find. And it’s of him watching Jordan Morris head the ball. That’s how little he was involved in those two home caps."

 

https://burgundywave.com/2024/02/23/the-curious-case-of-the-sidnei-tavares-loan/

 

[urban.spaceman]

*ouch*

[Lambert09]

6 hours ago, ALC Fox said:

Sometimes I think there are self-fulfilling prophecies in football.

 

For example, I don't think Puel was that bad until the mass pile-on. The football was boring but he cleaned out the squad, made some good signings, reduced the average age of the team and had us finishing respectably in the league.

 

Granted, the Rodgers appointment worked out better in terms of league position and a trophy in the cabinet, but he also inflated the squad, refused to sell assets at their peak value and contributed to the problems we're still experiencing today.

 

While the example of Puel is a negative one, I think self-fulfilling prophecies can go the other way too.

 

By now, Will Alves is surely pretty well known by most of the fanbase. He's been talked about for years as a massive talent, and his injury was big news on this forum and beyond.

 

If he starts a Premier League game and makes just one successful take-on early in the match, the crowd is going to go nuts. The feel-good factor is there right away, and that can influence the trajectory of an entire game.

 

From there, he gets more appearances and the team is living off the goodwill that creates in the fans for several games. Fan atmosphere can influence games, and a run of games can influence a season.

 

This is what I mean by a self-fulfilling prophecy. We don't know what Alves is like at PL level, but we won't know unless we play him. The crowd will be on his side from the absolute very beginning and we can essentially will (sorry) good performances from a player and the team.

 

I know the Premier League is a technical beast and mavericks are fewer and further between now. But these things can be coached into players. The excitement of having one of our own - who is also an attacking player, a flair player, the kind of player that fans love and who all fans secretly wish they could be - is enough to give this squad, this team and even Steve ****ing Cooper a boost so big, it could snowball and affect the rest of our season.

Completely correct but I don’t think that necessarily that’s the right thing for the manager to do. You don’t just chuck someone in if they aren’t the best option. 
However, that is exactly what these cups should be used for. Test the level. He needs a chance to show if he could be ready, a 5 min cameo if we are cruising proves nothing. Let him start or come off the bench when things aren’t going our way.  If he’d come on against walsall at 0-0 and done nothing I wouldn’t be thinking he should be playing in the league right now. But if he’d come on and made an impact then he should really be in contention. 

 

My point is, that it shouldn’t just be a freebie because you are from the academy but we should be making opportunities for those players when the situation is right. Tranmere and walsall in a cup, that’s not our priority,  were those moments.  

 

We’ve learnt nothing from those games and for what… so we can go and lose 3-0 to man united in the last 16. Waste of everyone’s energy tbqh. 

Edited 1 October 2024 by Lambert09

[messerschmitt]

1 hour ago, Jobyfox said:

I’ve read on this thread that we don’t treat our youngsters well. Historically I’m not sure that is the case. Chilwell, Barnes, Thomas, Choudhury, KDH and McAteer have all broken through into the first team with various degrees of success. 
 

I do agree that there is no point having a player in a PL squad if there is little hope of them playing. Those players above benefited considerably from Championship loans. 
 

I do have a slight nagging doubt, however, whether we overate some of these players. I can’t immediately think of many young players that didn’t break through here that have gone on to great things at the highest level, but plenty that are now plying their trade in the lower leagues. I suppose the only way to find out is for them to play 

Ivan Toney and Calvin Basey

[cityfanlee23]

2 hours ago, Tommy Fresh said:

Braybrooke was injured as well for a large part wasn't he

I’d need to remind myself to be honest, off the top of my head I thought he got injured late on in February/March but I could just be imagining it.

[Aus Fox]

1 hour ago, messerschmitt said:

Ivan Toney and Calvin Basey

I don’t think Toney was ever actually with our youth set up was he?

And Basey has done okay, but it was the right move for him to leave given the circumstances at the time.

[Tommy G]

28 minutes ago, Aus Fox said:

I don’t think Toney was ever actually with our youth set up was he?

And Basey has done okay, but it was the right move for him to leave given the circumstances at the time.

I agree I think it’s a stretch to quote Toney 

[Muzzy_no7]

Absolutely hideous decision to not loan Alves out and potentially really detrimental to his career. 

[Webbo]

3 hours ago, Muzzy_no7 said:

Absolutely hideous decision to not loan Alves out and potentially really detrimental to his career. 

I thought it was reported that there was no interest.from any suitable clubs.

[Ric Flair]

13 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I thought it was reported that there was no interest.from any suitable clubs.

It's been reported the club were surprised at a lack of interest from suitable clubs. I presume at Championship level. The question then is, would he be better not playing at all or at a League One club like Barnsley who were supposedly interested and their DOF is our ex head of analytics.

 

I do think we have to shoulder some of the responsibility here. There was absolutely no reason not to use him from the start in some games in pre-season whilst we had zero attacking midfielders. Would have given him the opportunity to prove whether he's capable amongst his fellow 1st team players here and generated interest in the Championship as to his recovery from his ACL. A missed opportunity for our biggest start from that age category. Hopefully we get a move lined up for January.

[Webbo]

9 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

It's been reported the club were surprised at a lack of interest from suitable clubs. I presume at Championship level. The question then is, would he be better not playing at all or at a League One club like Barnsley who were supposedly interested and their DOF is our ex head of analytics.

 

I do think we have to shoulder some of the responsibility here. There was absolutely no reason not to use him from the start in some games in pre-season whilst we had zero attacking midfielders. Would have given him the opportunity to prove whether he's capable amongst his fellow 1st team players here and generated interest in the Championship as to his recovery from his ACL. A missed opportunity for our biggest start from that age category. Hopefully we get a move lined up for January.

We've not stopped other players from going on loan. I don't see why we'd  stop Alves going out if the chance arose.

[JimJams]

He'll get plenty of game time soon enough.  The new gaffer will see to that.

[Ric Flair]

10 minutes ago, Webbo said:

We've not stopped other players from going on loan. I don't see why we'd  stop Alves going out if the chance arose.

I presume because we only wanted him to go to a Championship club. 

[Vowels]

Believe he would have been playing back up to Benson with the premier league hair and league 2 feet. He’s always injured though so would have got game time. Alves also injury prone ( when chomped ) so yeah I really have no helpful comment to make. 

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

I presume because we only wanted him to go to a Championship club. 

Braybrooke has gone to the SPL, nobody objected. You have to wonder why there weren't more teams interested. 

[Muzzy_no7]

6 months top end of League one would’ve been fine. Silly decision. 

[Webbo]

3 minutes ago, Muzzy_no7 said:

6 months top end of League one would’ve been fine. Silly decision. 

Whos decision? 

[Muzzy_no7]

8 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Whos decision? 

If it is in fact true that the club would only let him go to the championship and their were takers in L1.

 

Whos decision? Well presume it was nothing to do with Cooper as he has refused to use him and had several chances already. 
 

I mean it won’t be long till he’s 20 and he’s STILL not made a competitive start or meaningful substitute appearance. He should have several U21 caps to his name by now, regardless of his long term injury. 

Edited 1 October 2024 by Muzzy_no7