Climate Change - a poll

[Monk]

Just now, st albans fox said:

The rise in sea levels is one of the most difficult elements to predict.  We know that av temps will rise which will be reflected in higher maxes and longer spells of hotter conditions than we see now.  But where that average ends up between +1c and +2c is unknown.  The rise in sea levels is way more important in countries like ours down to the cm for obvious reasons. 

I know I just want to see Delia in a yellow submarine. 

[Lionator]

2 hours ago, Daggers said:

inb4 Brits discussing the weather gets banned.

The sun is an avocado eating, woke leftie, you can't even be warm these days without being accused of being racist!!

[Sparrowhawk]

8 minutes ago, Lionator said:

The sun is an avocado eating, woke leftie, you can't even be warm these days without being accused of being racist!!

Woke lefties don't eat avocados any more. Major ethical and environmental issues regarding their production...!

[Babylon]

1 hour ago, yorkie1999 said:

My actual point is that what is happening to the earths climate is irreversable and i don't think we can do anything about it, i love for you to prove me wrong, so what do you suggest? 

It's not, the graph he posted alone should show that dropping co2 would drop temperature. The issue I think is, the changes that are palatable to most, are probably pissing in the wind in terms of making a change. What difference will it make if the whole of foxes talk stop eating beef, if anther giant plant opens in China pumping more chemicals into the atmosphere in a week than we'd all produce in a lifetime of scoffing steak. 

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Babylon said:

It's not, the graph he posted alone should show that dropping co2 would drop temperature. The issue I think is, the changes that are palatable to most, are probably pissing in the wind in terms of making a change. What difference will it make if the whole of foxes talk stop eating beef, if anther giant plant opens in China pumping more chemicals into the atmosphere in a week than we'd all produce in a lifetime of scoffing steak. 

It has to be a global response, yes. And I'm repeating myself here, but the buzzwords regarding animal agriculture and transportation are nothing compared to energy generation - and that goes for the UK too.

 

FWIW the Chinese are starting to pull their weight on this matter. They need to do more, but then so does everyone else with the power.

[reporterpenguin]

The attitude of “I’m just one person, what difference will it make” is both understandable and a little depressing. 
 

While a single person, however much they try, won’t be able to make a macroscopic difference, a significant proportion of the global population doing the same really does add up and have consequences. A  small number multiplied by an extraordinarily big one still ends up being pretty big in its own right. 
 

As leicsmac said China really are starting to pull their weight in these matters now, though while they are still economically growing and manufacturing to export to the rest of the world it does offset the efforts they are putting in. But they’re generating an estimated 44% of their annual energy needs from renewables now, and that is not to be scoffed at. We’re estimated at 40% for context. 
 

It’s a global issue that needs, and is getting (even if it could be more), a global effort to minimise the effects. 

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-66229057

 

"The extreme temperatures sweeping the globe this week are the new normal in a world warmed by climate change, the UN weather agency says.  Temperatures went over 50C (122F) in parts of the US and China on Sunday.  The World Meteorological Organisation warned the heatwave in Europe could continue into August.  Millions around the world are under heat advisories as officials warn of danger to life from the hot temperatures."

 

And this is the beginning.

[Wymsey]

Governments, certainly here in the UK, need to implement a critical strategy to compact this - now.

 

Whose fault is it in causing this?

Can't really solely blame certain industries, no?

[leicsmac]

24 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

Governments, certainly here in the UK, need to implement a critical strategy to compact this - now.

 

Whose fault is it in causing this?

Can't really solely blame certain industries, no?

Certain governments are doing stuff, but it's clear, and has been for the last two decades, that they haven't done enough fast enough, so yes, critical strategy regarding acceleration and also resilience programs are called for.

 

As for responsibility, power generationis the biggest contibutor but I think in terms of humans being responsible it's immaterial- this problem will end up hitting everyone. Global problem, global responsibility. Of course, if things go wrong, those who are left are likely going to hold everyone who came before them responsible anyway - I would.

[Monk]

It seems fairly clear that the scale of response needed won’t take place until after it’s too late - purely because there needs to be a greater economic incentive to do so. 

[Grebfromgrebland]

On 17/07/2023 at 09:46, The Year Of The Fox said:

It’s a bit like Covid really. (I’m not saying Covid wasn’t real)

 

Until our politicians take it seriously, why the bloody hell would I, and put myself severely out of pocket to pay for things that don’t work properly? Air and Ground Source heat pumps will become the next major, ‘have you been missold….’

 

 

TBF if you get your knowledge from the likes of James Melville and David Vance you're views will be very skewed and essentially quite messed up.

 

Bit like saying you get your news from the daily mail or express, you know most of it isn't true or is designed to make your think in a certain angry hateful way.

[leicsmac]

16 minutes ago, Monk said:

It seems fairly clear that the scale of response needed won’t take place until after it’s too late - purely because there needs to be a greater economic incentive to do so.

And that is because if the very human propensity to think small and short term, and not beyond their own line of sight spatially or temporally.

 

I'm not entirely sure how you short circuit that propensity or what the best way may be, but I hope someone does because the stakes are high and the consequences are potentially dire

 

4 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

TBF if you get your knowledge from the likes of James Melville and David Vance you're views will be very skewed and essentially quite messed up.

 

Bit like saying you get your news from the daily mail or express, you know most of it isn't true or is designed to make your think in a certain angry hateful way.

The thing is, pointing that out directly, as true as it may be, doesn't do much to change people's minds. Of course, having it stated for the record so everyone else can see it serves a useful purpose.

 

In any case, AFAIC I have no idea why the death and suffering of hundreds of millions of people (and that's the best case scenario) is a political football anyway.

 

Actually, scrub that, I do know - see above.

[st albans fox]

how can six people think that there is no climate change ???

 

irrespective of the cause, surely no one is so entrenched that they don't believe the graphical evidence that we are in a warming phase of the planet   

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

how can six people think that there is no climate change ???

 

irrespective of the cause, surely no one is so entrenched that they don't believe the graphical evidence that we are in a warming phase of the planet   

Either taking the piss, completely ignorant of the subject matter, or a completely entrenched conspiracist who thinks the entire global climate science corps are somehow wrong or corrupt.

 

I'm hoping it's more of the first one than the other two.

[Sparrowhawk]

If I say that climate change is caused by people and is the reason for the high temperatures we're seeing, is that what they call a hot take??

[leicsmac]

Just now, Sparrowhawk said:

If I say that climate change is caused by people and is the reason for the high temperatures we're seeing, is that what they call a hot take??

[Monk]

4 hours ago, leicsmac said:

And that is because if the very human propensity to think small and short term, and not beyond their own line of sight spatially or temporally.

 

I'm not entirely sure how you short circuit that propensity or what the best way may be, but I hope someone does because the stakes are high and the consequences are potentially dire

 

The thing is, pointing that out directly, as true as it may be, doesn't do much to change people's minds. Of course, having it stated for the record so everyone else can see it serves a useful purpose.

 

In any case, AFAIC I have no idea why the death and suffering of hundreds of millions of people (and that's the best case scenario) is a political football anyway.

 

Actually, scrub that, I do know - see above.

It will take a some engineering maverick to invent some really effective carbon capture and be able to sell the world on it. Someone like Musk but he’s too entrenched in culture wars now. 

[Zear0]

5 hours ago, Monk said:

It seems fairly clear that the scale of response needed won’t take place until after it’s too late - purely because there needs to be a greater economic incentive to do so. 

I think this is what infuriates me the most about the situation. Renewables can be cheaper for consumers but are being held back by backhanders to government and middle eastern cartels who grant these buggers subsidies. 

[leicsmac]

8 hours ago, Monk said:

It will take a some engineering maverick to invent some really effective carbon capture and be able to sell the world on it. Someone like Musk but he’s too entrenched in culture wars now. 

...or a complete change in governance style on this matter in a lot of places across Earth. That's not very likely either.

 

8 hours ago, Zear0 said:

I think this is what infuriates me the most about the situation. Renewables can be cheaper for consumers but are being held back by backhanders to government and middle eastern cartels who grant these buggers subsidies. 

The entire global climate science corps has been beating their heads against a wall about this and saying that it's so damn obvious for the last decade or two. Infuriating and terrifying in equal measure, given the likely consequences.

 

So many people are going to suffer and die for no reason other than short-term self interest and profit. And that for me, given the scale, puts anyone responsible on the same level as any genocidal dictator in history, anyone who backed said genocidal dictator, or even someone who did nothing to stop him or them while the atrocities happened. I'm pretty sure that should the shit really hit the fan, those who are left will see it that way, anyway - I'd certainly be angry and looking for answers and accountability if I was brought into a world that the generations before me damaged massively.

[gerblod]

On 17/07/2023 at 07:40, leicsmac said:

Fair enough, a very human, honest response with the propensity for even basic empathy not extending beyond ones own line of sight spatially or temporally . No window dressing.

That's the innate failure of evolution to imbue humans with the ability to see the negative side of their unique place within and outside of the evolutionary process and the global ecology.

It's rather like humans have adopted a sense of a divine right to exploit their environment without questioning the impact of that exploitation. The acceptance of a false sense of superiority to all other life surrounding us is instinctive - the ability to verbalise this nonsensical idea of superiority has reinforced the error. Any number of philosophers have contented themselves with commenting on the human condition without ever seeing beyond its insularity. The chosen people is a common theme amongst various groups of humans and this prevents them from seeing the extension of this fallacious belief, globally, as the species itself as chosen. The idea of a god or gods as human in form just further intensifies this delusion into a form of madness. The inability to perceive Life as a billion year old adaptation of a huge number of intertwined species is the temporal 'blindness' and the inability to see beyond ones back yard is the spatial 'blindness'. Now we're waking up to the very real threat our unbalanced treading on the delicate tapestry of the environment is causing, we find ourselves so tied up in maintaining the doomsday habit of exploitation that we're unable to retreat or disentangle ourselves from the mess we've caused. But, make no mistake, it's not the end of the world, it's the end of human progression. Plants and animals will adapt but humans will peter out. I wish I could feel there was a chance we could stop this, but, unless there's a world initiative to act, it's unlikely.

[leicsmac]

13 minutes ago, gerblod said:

That's the innate failure of evolution to imbue humans with the ability to see the negative side of their unique place within and outside of the evolutionary process and the global ecology.

It's rather like humans have adopted a sense of a divine right to exploit their environment without questioning the impact of that exploitation. The acceptance of a false sense of superiority to all other life surrounding us is instinctive - the ability to verbalise this nonsensical idea of superiority has reinforced the error. Any number of philosophers have contented themselves with commenting on the human condition without ever seeing beyond its insularity. The chosen people is a common theme amongst various groups of humans and this prevents them from seeing the extension of this fallacious belief, globally, as the species itself as chosen. The idea of a god or gods as human in form just further intensifies this delusion into a form of madness. The inability to perceive Life as a billion year old adaptation of a huge number of intertwined species is the temporal 'blindness' and the inability to see beyond ones back yard is the spatial 'blindness'. Now we're waking up to the very real threat our unbalanced treading on the delicate tapestry of the environment is causing, we find ourselves so tied up in maintaining the doomsday habit of exploitation that we're unable to retreat or disentangle ourselves from the mess we've caused. But, make no mistake, it's not the end of the world, it's the end of human progression. Plants and animals will adapt but humans will peter out. I wish I could feel there was a chance we could stop this, but, unless there's a world initiative to act, it's unlikely.

Astute.

 

A couple of observations on the bolded:

 

- I think, but correct me if I'm wrong, that the idea of humans as somehow special and "chosen" compared to other species really arose with the Abrahamic religions and their particular idea of the immortal soul. Other beliefs have advocated coexistence with nature, rather than superiority over it.

 

- Of course, I hope you're wrong here and we need to do all we can to stop it until we cannot.

 

[gerblod]

29 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Astute.

 

A couple of observations on the bolded:

 

- I think, but correct me if I'm wrong, that the idea of humans as somehow special and "chosen" compared to other species really arose with the Abrahamic religions and their particular idea of the immortal soul. Other beliefs have advocated coexistence with nature, rather than superiority over it.

 

- Of course, I hope you're wrong here and we need to do all we can to stop it until we cannot.

 

I used the Abrahamic/Ibrahamic idea of 'chosen' as the most well-documented modern manifestation of the idea/belief, but it's a typical theme with tribes worldwide. The Arapaho indians called themselves human beings (in contrast to surrounding tribes) and the Nazi Party faithful viewed Slavs and Negro (is that PC now?) people as Untermenschen. The Victorian English believed they were superior to all other nationalities.

And that's where the barriers to tackling the problem are. Nation states define themselves in relationship with each other, that is, the people who adhere to the idea of belonging to a group of people separate from others. I kind of laugh when I hear that China, for instance, has taken offence to some stance or action the USA has taken. It's the rulers and their adherent organisations who react to their opposite numbers in another country. Borders are sacrosanct in establishing development and  separation of cultures. So where are those people who want to act going to establish a forum outside of a extremely unconnected world 'order'. Pillocks like Putin, Orban, Bolsonaro, Trump and Johnson require separateness as the condition to effecting their antagonisms.

I believe in the EU as something superseding nationalism, yet over half this country voted to leave its federation. That vote made the British less of an entity than a stronger one.

To contain CC radical, cohesive action is necessary from popular  grass roots activism is necessary. The first modern communists advocated a global alliance of the urban working class. They saw nationalist wars and the regimes who fomented è them as the enemy of the people - all peoples. The grass roots is where CC action needs to be sustained. People look to leaders to effect change - but leaders do what they've always done - get corrupted by power.

There has to be a blueprint for downsized existence - one which individuals can follow without resorting to leaders. Education of children is key in this. Instead of contorting children to fit into the damaged and damaging current capitalistic model, children need to own responsibility for their part in reducing consumption.

 

[leicsmac]

13 minutes ago, gerblod said:

I used the Abrahamic/Ibrahamic idea of 'chosen' as the most well-documented modern manifestation of the idea/belief, but it's a typical theme with tribes worldwide. The Arapaho indians called themselves human beings (in contrast to surrounding tribes) and the Nazi Party faithful viewed Slavs and Negro (is that PC now?) people as Untermenschen. The Victorian English believed they were superior to all other nationalities.

And that's where the barriers to tackling the problem are. Nation states define themselves in relationship with each other, that is, the people who adhere to the idea of belonging to a group of people separate from others. I kind of laugh when I hear that China, for instance, has taken offence to some stance or action the USA has taken. It's the rulers and their adherent organisations who react to their opposite numbers in another country. Borders are sacrosanct in establishing development and  separation of cultures. So where are those people who want to act going to establish a forum outside of a extremely unconnected world 'order'. Pillocks like Putin, Orban, Bolsonaro, Trump and Johnson require separateness as the condition to effecting their antagonisms.

I believe in the EU as something superseding nationalism, yet over half this country voted to leave its federation. That vote made the British less of an entity than a stronger one.

To contain CC radical, cohesive action is necessary from popular  grass roots activism is necessary. The first modern communists advocated a global alliance of the urban working class. They saw nationalist wars and the regimes who fomented è them as the enemy of the people - all peoples. The grass roots is where CC action needs to be sustained. People look to leaders to effect change - but leaders do what they've always done - get corrupted by power.

There has to be a blueprint for downsized existence - one which individuals can follow without resorting to leaders. Education of children is key in this. Instead of contorting children to fit into the damaged and damaging current capitalistic model, children need to own responsibility for their part in reducing consumption.

 

Yeah, that's it, really.

 

I would add that in addition to reducing consumption where we can, we need to push for additional/better tech solutions, because people won't accept what they believe to be a drop in their living standards (and nor should they given human ingenuity) unless it is forced upon them by nature, by which point it is of course too late. Fighting this while preventing any kind of regression is the only way I see much success.

[Benguin]

For atheist friends, how would you distinguish between the latter two options? Arent they one and the same? 
 

2nd option for me 

[HighPeakFox]

10 minutes ago, Benguin said:

For atheist friends, how would you distinguish between the latter two options? Arent they one and the same? 
 

2nd option for me 

I would ask you to reconsider this question, because I think your premise might get challenged forcefully.