Accounts 22/23

[Strokes]

34 minutes ago, CheeseHead said:

You're surely not including Spurs in this are you!?

Did you miss the Audi cup?

[CheeseHead]

5 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Did you miss the Audi cup?

Of course. How ridiculous of me to forget!

[Strokes]

32 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Commercial revenue is their only way, or getting access to Champions League repeatedly. 

 

I'm not against unlimited owner investment but it would not benefit most clubs and probably not us. It will further inflate transfer fees and wages too.

 

Anyway, this all seems pretty futile as UEFA don't seem to be changing their rules so any club qualifying for Europe will eventually have to comply with spending only 70% of their revenue.

Yes but commercial revenue growth is unobtainable without continued success on the pitch. Chicken and egg.

It’s no longer a proper competition. The Premier League is 3 mini leagues in reality. If PSR is the solution for the non big 6 clubs, I’m not sure I understand what the problem was.

PSR is sky sports wet dream come true. All clubs and fans with any ambition beyond mediocrity should oppose this imo.

[worth_the_wait]

Premier League clubs' £1bn of losses in 11 charts

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68713522

 

Some interesting charts here.

[WigstonWanderer]

Perhaps a better PSR model would be a hybrid that in addition to the current 3 year loss, owners would be allowed to put in up to a certain amount of their own money annually, but in the form of a gift, not a loan. This would keep the club solvent in the event that the owner loses interest and decides to sell (as I understand this is the justification for PSR), whilst permitting genuine investment.

 

By capping such an annual investment to the same for all clubs it would allow some clubs outside the rich 6 to compete.

[Aus Fox]

8 hours ago, CosbehFox said:

Just remember Wolves chased after the European places at the same time as us but they still had the back-up plan of player trading and not being so bloody stupid when it came to building a squad. 

Not saying we’ve been great, but Wolves had one season in Europe, haven’t really been successful in any cups and have sat around mid table.

We were  aiming to be a step higher, we won the cup and played in Europe 3 seasons in a row - we needed to do more to ensure our squad could compete in the extra games. Ultimately we failed, and spent poorly, but ours and Wolves path was very different.

West Ham would be the best club to compare us to, but again their huge attendance compared to ours gives them better financial pull, as does being in London when attracting new players.

[don_danbury]

41 minutes ago, Aus Fox said:

Not saying we’ve been great, but Wolves had one season in Europe, haven’t really been successful in any cups and have sat around mid table.

We were  aiming to be a step higher, we won the cup and played in Europe 3 seasons in a row - we needed to do more to ensure our squad could compete in the extra games. Ultimately we failed, and spent poorly, but ours and Wolves path was very different.

West Ham would be the best club to compare us to, but again their huge attendance compared to ours gives them better financial pull, as does being in London when attracting new players.

yeah., winning the prem meant a huge wage increase. keeping rodgers and bringing in more shit for huge sums hasnt helped. us and wolves aren't comparable 

Edited 5 April by don_danbury

[Dan LCFC]

14 hours ago, Collymore said:

It's transfers like Harry Souttar that makes my blood boil. Bought recently for absolutely no reason. He's sat there doing nothing just depreciating. He should have been released on a free in January just like Soumare, Praet and Ward to get off the wage bill. 

 

Daka and Kelechi should have been fire sales sold off cheaply. Instead we will keep all of these for the remainder of their contracts costing us millions and then they'll leave for nothing anyway. 

 

It's like logic goes out of the window with us at management level. I would expect a three year old to be able to run us better than we are. The more I think about it, the more it seems like utter recklessness on a massive scale. 

 

Heads need to roll.

Life under Teflon Jon.

[Claudio Fannieri]

This for me is where the lack of transparency and communication from the higher echelons of the club, absolute frustrate me, had they been open and honest with the fanbase regards the financial gambles they were taking I am fairly sure most of the fanbase would have appreciate the situation and accepted 2/3 seasons of mid table mediocrity whilst we cashed in on a couple of stars and reinvested in young hungry players and started another cycle. 
 

Instead the club at the behest of Brendan and maybe others involved at board level, continued to gamble and chase the dream, was it the fans dream to see us in financial meltdown. Of course we all wanted Champions League football and further success, but had we known the full picture I doubt any of us would support the risks being taken and the price we are now paying for the irresponsible spending. 

 

Just like the car crash summer of 2016 following the league title success when our recruitment was all over the shop, we managed to make the same mistakes yet again following the FA Cup success. We claim to want to be a top club, but our issue is as soon as we get a sniff of success, we lose our heads and make poor decisions that take years to rectify. That is why we need a change at board level, with experienced and skilled operators at DoF and Commercial levels who can capitalise on our successes and build sustainable strategic growth both on and off the pitch.

[Mr Weller 2]

15 minutes ago, Claudio Fannieri said:

This for me is where the lack of transparency and communication from the higher echelons of the club, absolute frustrate me, had they been open and honest with the fanbase regards the financial gambles they were taking I am fairly sure most of the fanbase would have appreciate the situation and accepted 2/3 seasons of mid table mediocrity whilst we cashed in on a couple of stars and reinvested in young hungry players and started another cycle. 
 

Instead the club at the behest of Brendan and maybe others involved at board level, continued to gamble and chase the dream, was it the fans dream to see us in financial meltdown. Of course we all wanted Champions League football and further success, but had we known the full picture I doubt any of us would support the risks being taken and the price we are now paying for the irresponsible spending. 

 

Just like the car crash summer of 2016 following the league title success when our recruitment was all over the shop, we managed to make the same mistakes yet again following the FA Cup success. We claim to want to be a top club, but our issue is as soon as we get a sniff of success, we lose our heads and make poor decisions that take years to rectify. That is why we need a change at board level, with experienced and skilled operators at DoF and Commercial levels who can capitalise on our successes and build sustainable strategic growth both on and off the pitch.

The fans would have done no such thing. They’d have complained endlessly and some would have stopped going altogether. Fans don’t give a fig about financial compliance and why should they, it’s not their money? 
 

Fans care about winning and the excitement of following their team. They want their team to be the best it can be.

 

Under your scenario there’d have been no top five finishes, no exciting runs in Europe, and no FA Cup. If the price of that is a 6 point deduction or a luxury fine I think I’ll cope.

[Hitesh]

8 hours ago, worth_the_wait said:

Premier League clubs' £1bn of losses in 11 charts

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68713522

 

Some interesting charts here.

The without player trading one is most striking of the all. 

[CosbehFox]

5 hours ago, Aus Fox said:

Not saying we’ve been great, but Wolves had one season in Europe, haven’t really been successful in any cups and have sat around mid table.

We were  aiming to be a step higher, we won the cup and played in Europe 3 seasons in a row - we needed to do more to ensure our squad could compete in the extra games. Ultimately we failed, and spent poorly, but ours and Wolves path was very different.

West Ham would be the best club to compare us to, but again their huge attendance compared to ours gives them better financial pull, as does being in London when attracting new players.

Equally though Wolves failure meant they didn’t have the same revenue levels as us. 
 

The squad thing is a red herring because Rodgers over played the players at his disposal. 

[Claudio Fannieri]

1 hour ago, Mr Weller 2 said:

The fans would have done no such thing. They’d have complained endlessly and some would have stopped going altogether. Fans don’t give a fig about financial compliance and why should they, it’s not their money? 
 

Fans care about winning and the excitement of following their team. They want their team to be the best it can be.

 

Under your scenario there’d have been no top five finishes, no exciting runs in Europe, and no FA Cup. If the price of that is a 6 point deduction or a luxury fine I think I’ll cope.

Read my post again, I never said about the 2 top 5 finishes or the FA Cup win, I was talking about the mistakes made during that summer when the club gambled by not selling a star or two and then went out and spent a kings ransom on wages for Daka, Soumare, Bertrand and Vestergaard to please Brendan. 
 

my issues and concerns relate to how we operated following the FA Cup win, certain individuals seemed to have been pissed on power and success and our well structured model went out the window. 

[fox_up_north]

Have to agree. Most fans know that any club outside of the rich ones is always swimming against the tide. Nature of the beast, sadly.

 

If the club just said "despite winning the league and getting to European knockouts, it's still a tough game so be aware we have to take the rough with the smooth".

 

I think most would be happy with that. For every 1 season in Europe, you spend 2 out of it - that's far better than most of us have experienced and still better than the 90 or so other football league clubs.

[JimmyC74]

5 hours ago, Claudio Fannieri said:

This for me is where the lack of transparency and communication from the higher echelons of the club, absolute frustrate me, had they been open and honest with the fanbase regards the financial gambles they were taking I am fairly sure most of the fanbase would have appreciate the situation and accepted 2/3 seasons of mid table mediocrity whilst we cashed in on a couple of stars and reinvested in young hungry players and started another cycle. 
 

Instead the club at the behest of Brendan and maybe others involved at board level, continued to gamble and chase the dream, was it the fans dream to see us in financial meltdown. Of course we all wanted Champions League football and further success, but had we known the full picture I doubt any of us would support the risks being taken and the price we are now paying for the irresponsible spending. 

 

Just like the car crash summer of 2016 following the league title success when our recruitment was all over the shop, we managed to make the same mistakes yet again following the FA Cup success. We claim to want to be a top club, but our issue is as soon as we get a sniff of success, we lose our heads and make poor decisions that take years to rectify. That is why we need a change at board level, with experienced and skilled operators at DoF and Commercial levels who can capitalise on our successes and build sustainable strategic growth both on and off the pitch.

I think it’s well established that we backed Rodgers (and Congerton) without applying enough checks and controls.

 

There was a reason why Liverpool made him work under a transfer committee including their CEO.

 

Our record on large incoming transfer deals has been generally poor since 2016 (e.g.Slimani, Silva)- but there has never been any accountability. In 2021 when we splurged on Daka, Soumare and Vestergaard we quickly established none of them really fit the bill. Woeful due dil.

 

Just emphasizes again we need an elite sporting director/ DofF.

Edited 5 April by JimmyC74

[Rob1742]

On 03/04/2024 at 14:10, BenTheFox said:

Do you know what the worst part of all of this is? If they had come out in the summer of 2021 and made it clear that finances are tight and that we'd have to cut our cloth accordingly with a big player sale or two and that we need to run a tight ship until we've expanded the stadium and increased revenue by other means, I'm sure most of us would have accepted it and appreciated the transparency and would have altered our expectations accordingly. Most of us would take finishing say 13th in the premier league instead of 5th-8th if it meant that the club was on a stable footing. I'm not saying any of this with the benefit of hindsight, I genuinely would have respected it. Instead we ended up with a £90 million net spend and an even more inflated wage bill when we had sellable assets with the likes of Tielemans, Ndidi, Fofana, Maddison, Barnes and Soyuncu. 

I don’t agree. The people I have half conversations with ( I say half, because I tend to quit half way through) moan about what we do and always expect more and more.

 

You have only got to look at a good percentage of fans reaction at Bristol City.

 

Anything other than winning and or spending huge amounts on players is regarded as negative and not having the ambition to move forward.

 

Also if they openly say that we need to cut the cloth, players and agents would give us a wide berth.

 

It’s really difficult for the club to communicate as most take it out of context. 
 

I know that if they came out with “ we need to cut the cloth” fans would have been raging and it would just have been the trigger needed for the Rudkin and Whelan out brigade and brought instant instability. 

 

Most fans don’t look at the detail, they just look at the result and the transfers and if they don’t like what they see they instantly start spitting. 
 

It’s not everyone, and many on here won’t be like that, but you just need to see how unsettling it is when one thing goes wrong and the spitters come out.

 

Communicating from any clubs point of view is very hard when it’s bad news
 

 

[Foxdiamond]

23 hours ago, los dedos said:

Surely at some point a constant top 8 finish just becomes hollow !  Does it appear in the history books and hold life time memories for fans.🤔

I mean Cov had a 34 year run in the top flight but its ultimately the Fa cup win that they remember and celebrate.

Even Spurs fans in their mid 20s will have difficulty remembering winning anything. The previous generations almost expected Cup wins or Uefa Cups. Now 4th spot is the target without managing to actually win anything. 

[st albans fox]

Spending tens of millions in an attempt to earn tens of millions by qualifying for the CL seems a bit strange as a business plan.  
 

I appreciate that there are more nuances than that but the potential downside was so large compared to the possible upside - unless there was stuff going on behind the scenes that we knew nowt about re possible club sale related to continued achievements. 

Edited 5 April by st albans fox

[Bluetintedspecs]

Unquestionably there has been some gross mismanagement,  imho Top has entrusted people, that have massively ill advised and let him down,  at the times he most needed their guidance and support!

Through mourning the loss of his beloved father and then the massive financial turmoil the pandemic and its restrictions had on his core business would have meant , due to tragic circumstances out of his control, he was leaning on incompetents below him who had a free reign sadly!

Those below gave the snakeoil salesman Rodgers and his sidekick too much power and influence taking us away from our tried and tested business model. When red flags were spotted too late and restrictions and control imparted Rodgers downed tools and the rest we know! 

Personally I feel those calling for protests and Top to go are very short sighted, all focus atm should be on backing the club , Enzo and the lads to promotion as financially that is essential.

Talk of 15 points deduction I feel is bunkum , a precedent has been set with 9 points for Administration,  also the draconian and inconsistent PSR sanction system looks like possibly being scrapped so it could work out not as bad as some of the conclusions being arrived at.

It's seige mentality time UTC 👊🦊

 

 

[Chelmofox]

37 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Spending tens of millions in an attempt to earn tens of millions by qualifying for the CL seems a bit strange as a business plan.  
 

I appreciate that there are more nuances than that but the potential downside was so large compared to the possible upside - unless there was stuff going on behind the scenes that we knew nowt about re possible club sale related to continued achievements. 

Thats football though isn't it? I don't look at any top flights operations and think any are doing this to operate as a sustainable business or with any ambition to break even.  With club owners, i think the biggest focus is on success and increasing the value of their asset with one eye on a big acquisition. Although you do wonder where we go from Middle Eastern ownership?

 

KP group undoubtedly used LCFC to gain exposure of their brand in europe, with one eye on a big sale one day. Obviously been a big setback in both.

[Guest leatherhead32]

9 minutes ago, Bluetintedspecs said:

Unquestionably there has been some gross mismanagement,  imho Top has entrusted people, that have massively ill advised and let him down,  at the times he most needed their guidance and support!

Through mourning the loss of his beloved father and then the massive financial turmoil the pandemic and its restrictions had on his core business would have meant , due to tragic circumstances out of his control, he was leaning on incompetents below him who had a free reign sadly!

Those below gave the snakeoil salesman Rodgers and his sidekick too much power and influence taking us away from our tried and tested business model. When red flags were spotted too late and restrictions and control imparted Rodgers downed tools and the rest we know! 

Personally I feel those calling for protests and Top to go are very short sighted, all focus atm should be on backing the club , Enzo and the lads to promotion as financially that is essential.

Talk of 15 points deduction I feel is bunkum , a precedent has been set with 9 points for Administration,  also the draconian and inconsistent PSR sanction system looks like possibly being scrapped so it could work out not as bad as some of the conclusions being arrived at.

It's seige mentality time UTC

 

 

 a post on these allegations my tiny brain can cope with as the numbers and accusations plus wording  are not proven yet, time will tell on that of course and everyone can /will have there right to put up their thoughts / concerns. but as you typed its siege mentality now as the run in continues with us in prime position if we win our game in hand,  i also believe top has been given but sadly listened to many wronguns where advice is concerned, i truly hope he can turn that round,  learn from it , then bring in smart honest football people. when your smiling the foxes will come through.    

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, Rob1742 said:

I don’t agree. The people I have half conversations with ( I say half, because I tend to quit half way through) moan about what we do and always expect more and more.

 

You have only got to look at a good percentage of fans reaction at Bristol City.

 

Anything other than winning and or spending huge amounts on players is regarded as negative and not having the ambition to move forward.

 

Also if they openly say that we need to cut the cloth, players and agents would give us a wide berth.

 

It’s really difficult for the club to communicate as most take it out of context. 
 

I know that if they came out with “ we need to cut the cloth” fans would have been raging and it would just have been the trigger needed for the Rudkin and Whelan out brigade and brought instant instability. 

 

Most fans don’t look at the detail, they just look at the result and the transfers and if they don’t like what they see they instantly start spitting. 
 

It’s not everyone, and many on here won’t be like that, but you just need to see how unsettling it is when one thing goes wrong and the spitters come out.

 

Communicating from any clubs point of view is very hard when it’s bad news
 

 

Isn't that the modus operandi of any business? You hold the standard high to drive up the performance of the operation. 

 

I get the general point of your post. There's always someone to upset. 

 

But it's this sort of comment what sticks with me. One of the reasons I think we are in this situation is that for years now any criticism of LCFC as been viewed as moaning rather than a constructive drive to improve. The upper echelons want the warmth of it being easy. 

 

On the playing side the club have held a post for too long of 'that will be do' - ie the season where the fuel of Rodgers was evaporating as we finished 8th. Off the pitch, well I'd bore everyone to tears with that. 

 

When you get the top like we did, you have to constantly be looking at ways of improvement. Whether that's playing or off the pitch. You evolve. When you do that and you get fans buy-in, when the shit hits the fan, you have a softer ear. They forgotten all about the off the pitch stuff and when it's gone wrong on the pitch, the fans are already agitated. That's what happened at Bristol City - the ignition was just finally set off. 

Edited 5 April by CosbehFox

[Claudio Fannieri]

8 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

Isn't that the modus operandi of any business? You hold the standard high to drive up the performance of the operation. 

 

I get the general point of your post. There's always someone to upset. 

 

But it's this sort of comment what sticks with me. One of the reasons I think we are in this situation is that for years now any criticism of LCFC as been viewed as moaning rather than a constructive drive to improve. The upper echelons want the warmth of it being easy. 

 

On the playing side the club have held a post for too long of 'that will be do' - ie the season where the fuel of Rodgers was evaporating as we finished 8th. Off the pitch, well I'd bore everyone to tears with that. 

 

When you get the top like we did, you have to constantly be looking at ways of improvement. Whether that's playing or off the pitch. You evolve. When you do that and you get fans buy-in, when the shit hits the fan, you have a softer ear. They forgotten all about the off the pitch stuff and when it's gone wrong on the pitch, the fans are already agitated. 

Couldn’t agree more, for me it’s not about spending huge money on players or wages that gets me excited, it’s clever recruitment and the signing of players for a relatively modest fee and the potential for them to generate a decent sell on or the development of a healthy conveyor belt of academy prospects. 
 

To be honest any investment of £15m plus and I am nervous as I know we are out of our comfort zone as a club and also that a deal of this magnitude if it doesn’t go well will severely impact us. 
 

I would argue our summer transfer business in the main was better than anything we completed in the previous 4 or so windows as a premier league club. 

Edited 5 April by Claudio Fannieri

[Bluetintedspecs]

20 minutes ago, leatherhead32 said:

 a post on these allegations my tiny brain can cope with as the numbers and accusations plus wording  are not proven yet, time will tell on that of course and everyone can /will have there right to put up their thoughts / concerns. but as you typed its siege mentality now as the run in continues with us in prime position if we win our game in hand,  i also believe top has been given but sadly listened to many wronguns where advice is concerned, i truly hope he can turn that round,  learn from it , then bring in smart honest football people. when your smiling the foxes will come through.    

Cheers pal, I think this topic and  concerns understandably frazzles everyone's brains! 

[cityfanlee23]

12 hours ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Perhaps a better PSR model would be a hybrid that in addition to the current 3 year loss, owners would be allowed to put in up to a certain amount of their own money annually, but in the form of a gift, not a loan. This would keep the club solvent in the event that the owner loses interest and decides to sell (as I understand this is the justification for PSR), whilst permitting genuine investment.

 

By capping such an annual investment to the same for all clubs it would allow some clubs outside the rich 6 to compete.

Sounds feasible my only concern would be that there would need to be some sort of rule of a legal contract on that gift, since some owners would give the money as a “gift” then just asset strip the clubs to get their money back if they lost interest.