Our system detected that your browser is blocking advertisements on our site. Please help support FoxesTalk by disabling any kind of ad blocker while browsing this site. Thank you.
Jump to content
 Share
Daggers

General News

By Daggers, in General Chat

Recommended Posts

  • Popular Post
leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
  • Popular Post
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

Read the case thoroughly and I don't understand how anyone could oppose it. Sickening. 

... because if it were a thing, it wouldn't just be used in this case. And, one day, inevitably, the UK state would execute an innocent person and that would be deemed acceptable as collateral cost for the applied system.

 

Don't get me wrong, these people, in this case, I would shed no tears nor stand in anyone's way. But such things don't exist in a legal or policy vacuum.

Edited by leicsmac
  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1
st albans fox

st albans fox

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

... because if it were a thing, it wouldn't just be used in this case. And, one day, inevitably, the UK state would execute an innocent person and that would be deemed acceptable as collateral cost for the applied system.

 

Don't get me wrong, these people, in this case, I would shed no tears nor stand in anyone's way. But such things don't exist in a legal or policy vacuum.

Surely we’re getting closer to being able to place murderers such as this (with no chance of parole) in single cell units on an uninhabited Scottish island where food etc is delivered by drone. 
if they fall ill then c’est la vie (or not).  Whilst you may decide that the state does not have the right to take a life, nature and karma can. 

  • Like 1
Thefox81

Thefox81

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

Read the case thoroughly and I don't understand how anyone could oppose it. Sickening. 

Had to stop reading it. Was making me upset but mostly anger. Poor little girl.

  • Like 1
leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Surely we’re getting closer to being able to place murderers such as this (with no chance of parole) in single cell units on an uninhabited Scottish island where food etc is delivered by drone. 
if they fall ill then c’est la vie (or not).  Whilst you may decide that the state does not have the right to take a life, nature and karma can. 

It's a theory that would at least buy time for the innocent, but then it still comes back to the principle that even where there's a statistically significant risk that the state is going to apply an absolute punishment, you're going to need absolute proof every time (which I honestly don't think is possible).

  • Like 1
Lionator

Lionator

Posted
Posted
32 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

Read the case thoroughly and I don't understand how anyone could oppose it. Sickening. 

I’d prefer state sanctioned torture. State sanctioned killing is an easy way out. Make them pay a psychological price.

st albans fox

st albans fox

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

It's a theory that would at least buy time for the innocent, but then it still comes back to the principle that even where there's a statistically significant risk that the state is going to apply an absolute punishment, you're going to need absolute proof every time (which I honestly don't think is possible).

They’re alive - just stuck on their own until they go of natural causes.   that could be many years.  Unlikely I know unless they’re mentally v strong.  I’m just fed up of the state having to pay a small fortune to keep the worst of the worst locked up for decades.  Why do they deserve that ?  Those who they killed don't get to take another breath. 

  • Like 1
fox_up_north

fox_up_north

Posted
Posted

Absolutely sickening. Can't even beging to understand why you'd do it. I get why a shaking of a baby gets out of hand or even those lunatics who think their child is possessed by a demon but these two KNEW what they were doing. Why?

 

As with others - don't ever think prison is enough 

 

  • Like 1
leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

They’re alive - just stuck on their own until they go of natural causes.   that could be many years.  Unlikely I know unless they’re mentally v strong.  I’m just fed up of the state having to pay a small fortune to keep the worst of the worst locked up for decades.  Why do they deserve that ?  Those who they killed don't get to take another breath. 

As are a lot of others, and they have a big point.

 

But any potential solution is complex.

  • Popular Post
CosbehFox

CosbehFox

Posted
  • Popular Post
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

Need to build more prisons..

We really don't. 

 

We need to have a functioning rehabilitation process for low level criminals. 

Edited by CosbehFox
  • Like 9
  • Thanks 1
Wymsey

Wymsey

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

We really don't. 

 

We need to have a functioning rehabilitation process for low level criminals. 

What would that include, in an ideal world?

bmt

bmt

Posted
Posted
52 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

We really don't. 

 

We need to have a functioning rehabilitation process for low level criminals. 

Agree. Someone I know works for the MoJ and has worked a lot with prisons. How the system works (or doesn't) in practice is laughable across many prisons. Education and rehabilitation provision is inconsistent and the process for releasing people from prison is an absolute mess which often leaves prison leavers confused, miles away from where they are from with very little money and without access to their belongings, and often without access to the care they are supposed to have. This includes people on remand who never get convicted. 

 

Hopefully Lord Timpson will be able to work on reducing reoffending and the CPS on avoiding prison where they can and the problem will ease in the medium term.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
bovril

bovril

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, CosbehFox said:

We really don't. 

 

We need to have a functioning rehabilitation process for low level criminals. 

tbf we also need to build more prisons

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Jattdogg

Jattdogg

Posted
Posted

Trump is such a cvnt

 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/she-will-not-be-missed-trump-on-freeland-s-departure-from-cabinet-1.7148133

 

I'm tired of Trudeau and co but he has referred to Trudeau as governor several times now since his trade war comments and going on about us being a state. You absolute cretin,  have some respect, no need to be a doosh.  You don't have to like Trudeau but he is our PM.

Torquay Gunner

Torquay Gunner

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

It's a theory that would at least buy time for the innocent, but then it still comes back to the principle that even where there's a statistically significant risk that the state is going to apply an absolute punishment, you're going to need absolute proof every time (which I honestly don't think is possible).

There was absolute proof of guilt in this case and in similar cases such as Baby P and the other horrible case in the news the other day.  Modern forensic methods such as analysis of mobile phone data, CCTV and DNA make prosecution of these cases so much easier than of yesteryear.   I do agree that there should be no doubt as to a persons guilt if they were to receive such a sentence, but the  torture and murder of a child is a really exceptional catatory of crime,  which imo demands more than a chuck away the key approach. 

leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Jattdogg said:

Trump is such a cvnt

 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/she-will-not-be-missed-trump-on-freeland-s-departure-from-cabinet-1.7148133

 

I'm tired of Trudeau and co but he has referred to Trudeau as governor several times now since his trade war comments and going on about us being a state. You absolute cretin,  have some respect, no need to be a doosh.  You don't have to like Trudeau but he is our PM.

The belittling is, of course, deliberate on his part.

 

The sooner he's locked in a room with a half dozen Canada geese for ten minutes, the sooner there can be damage limitation for the world.

 

1 minute ago, Torquay Gunner said:

There was absolute proof of guilt in this case and in similar cases such as Baby P and the other horrible case in the news the other day.  Modern forensic methods such as analysis of mobile phone data, CCTV and DNA make prosecution of these cases so much easier than of yesteryear.   I do agree that there should be no doubt as to a persons guilt if they were to receive such a sentence, but the  torture and murder of a child is a really exceptional catatory of crime,  which imo demands more than a chuck away the key approach. 

... which would also require perfect attribution on the matter of distinguishing when a case is ironclad and has absolute proof (as this one is and does) or not.

 

Can that also be guaranteed?

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
CosbehFox

CosbehFox

Posted
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, bovril said:

tbf we also need to build more prisons

They have / are 

https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2024/12/11/government-commits-to-four-new-prisons-in-seven-years/

 

There's been a few property based stuff which unsurprisingly has gone under the radar in the last few days as it's not very sexy but much needed. 

https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2024/12/17/government-buys-back-over-36000-military-homes/ for example too. 

 

Or Developers commenting they are finding the planning system less of a bind - https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2024/12/12/boot-reoprts-noticeable-improvement-in-planning-system/

Edited by CosbehFox
Torquay Gunner

Torquay Gunner

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

The belittling is, of course, deliberate on his part.

 

The sooner he's locked in a room with a half dozen Canada geese for ten minutes, the sooner there can be damage limitation for the world.

 

... which would also require perfect attribution on the matter of distinguishing when a case is ironclad and has absolute proof (as this one is and does) or not.

 

Can that also be guaranteed?

 

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

The belittling is, of course, deliberate on his part.

 

The sooner he's locked in a room with a half dozen Canada geese for ten minutes, the sooner there can be damage limitation for the world.

 

... which would also require perfect attribution on the matter of distinguishing when a case is ironclad and has absolute proof (as this one is and does) or not.

 

Can that also be guaranteed?

Can you think of such a case where the guilt has not been ironclad, because I cannot? 

leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Torquay Gunner said:

 

Can you think of such a case where the guilt has not been ironclad, because I cannot? 

Bridgewater Four. Birmingham Six. Oliver Campbell, to name a few

 

There are many more wrongful murder convictions, historical and contemporary, where thought the guilt was thought ironclad, it was later shown to not be so.

 

Again, don't get me wrong, I can see the arguments being made here, but I cannot find a system that might execute an innocent party and consider that a valid price to pay, no matter how slim the chance, in any way conscionable.

 

It would need perfect attribution, nothing else. Absolutely perfect.

Torquay Gunner

Torquay Gunner

Posted
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Bridgewater Four. Birmingham Six. Oliver Campbell, to name a few

 

There are many more wrongful murder convictions, historical and contemporary, where thought the guilt was thought ironclad, it was later shown to not be so.

 

Again, don't get me wrong, I can see the arguments being made here, but I cannot find a system that might execute an innocent party and consider that a valid price to pay, no matter how slim the chance, in any way conscionable.

 

It would need perfect attribution, nothing else. Absolutely perfect.

Not the category of murder that I am advocating the death sentence for, please read back my previous posts.  I am also talking of contemporary cases where modern detection is more definitive. 

Edited by Torquay Gunner
leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Torquay Gunner said:

Not the category of murder that I am advocating the death sentence for, please read back my previous posts.  I am also talking of contemporary cases where modern detection is more definitive. 

Pardon the lack of clarity.

 

I was making a point that dividing cases along the lines of degree of brutality in order to classify them as worthy of a death sentence as you advocate here (correct me if I'm wrong) would, in order to function, require perfect standard of proof and perfect attribution between that and a "lesser" instance on every single occasion.

 

Some of the cases I list above may easily have satisfied the requirements you state at the time of their deliverance. And though the ability to source proof has improved massively, the whole process remains irrevocably human, and therefore imperfect.

 

Can it be truly, honestly guaranteed that if the system you wish to implement is implemented, there will not be a mistake at some point in time, as humans almost inevitably do?

 

To state again, I'm not actually against the idea selectively on the grounds that you state here on principle - I just feel, with good reason I think - that it would in practice inevitably at some point go wrong and an innocent person would pay the ultimate price for it. Whether someone thinks that is an acceptable cost is up to them. I do not.

Edited by leicsmac
  • Like 1
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share
Go to topic listing

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...