General News Thread

[Trav Le Bleu]

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

But that's humans for you, I guess. We all have our crosses/crescents/chakras/mezuzahs/+ to bear, apparently. 

Fixed so as not to cause any offence and taking a leaf out of LGBTQ+

 

(Though I've always been confused. Does the + include straight people?)

[CornwallFox]

2 hours ago, Tommy G said:

Finally - there will be some huge US corporations that won't be particularly happy with this  if you've been round a supermarket in the US you realise it's almost impossible to find proper food in a suitable quantity. 

Never been there, do they not have just normal fruit, veg etc in supermarkets? 

[CornwallFox]

1 hour ago, kenny said:

Ive not seen the video, so can't comment directly.

 

But what you can't do, is hold down R2 on the controller, zoom in using your super-sense skill and take out the spark plugs in the engine, then if it goes wrong you keep going, then watch a Youtube video until you manage to pull it off.

Bear in mind these are ice agents, not police officers. They're there to pick up suspected foreign criminals. They were annoyed at her as she was blocking the road and all got out to tell her to get out of her car. Not sure if they have any legal jurisdiction. She drove off and one officer just quickly drew his gun and fired into the car, no real aiming, no time for thinking, he just killed her. Doesn't seem what ice are supposed to be doing.

 

Also, a medic was nearby and the ice officers refused to let him see the woman, denying her any possibility of life, even though it was likely too late.

Edited 8 January by CornwallFox

[Tommy G]

7 minutes ago, CornwallFox said:

Never been there, do they not have just normal fruit, veg etc in supermarkets? 

They do, but they also have 10x more UPF than here, every shelf is full of XXL packs of crap full of sugar and chemicals

[RowlattsFox]

Surely everyone can agree that shooting someone in the head has to be the last of all last resorts and should only be done for the worst of criminals? 

 

Not read the back story and briefly saw the video, and yes the woman appears to have got herself in a position where she doesn't need to be and put her own life in danger, and she shouldn't have drove off.. But shooting her in the head? In fact, shooting her at all is ridiculous unless I'm missing a major detail. 

[kenny]

18 minutes ago, CornwallFox said:

Bear in mind these are ice agents, not police officers. They're there to pick up suspected foreign criminals. They were annoyed at her as she was blocking the road and all got out to tell her to get out of her car. Not sure if they have any legal jurisdiction. She drove off and one officer just quickly drew his gun and fired into the car, no real aiming, no time for thinking, he just killed her. Doesn't seem what ice are supposed to be doing.

 

Also, a medic was nearby and the ice officers refused to let him see the woman, denying her any possibility of life, even though it was likely too late.

I'm not commenting on the story and don't wish to watch a video of someone being killed.

 

But it's not a movie or video game where the 'hero' whips out a pistol and the car grinds to a halt. In real life, as with the Kaba case, the only way to immobilise a moving vehicle safely is to hit the driver. 

[st albans fox]

2 hours ago, Salisbury Fox said:

I’ve not seen the video but it’s not common practice to shoot tyres out as it’s generally not as easy as it appears in the movies. Also there’s a high risk of ricochets which could lead to bystanders getting injured.

 

2 hours ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

 

Isn't this an urban myth? You need a high powered gun and special ammo I think.

Reckon you can - especially at close range but the ricochet aspect is relevant 

 

 

[fox_up_north]

4 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

It is deemed acceptable in the US for an armed federal agent to shoot someone who is threatening them.  This is partly why I would never live in the US to be honest.

A mate of mine moved to California a few years ago. I check in on him from time to time. One of his last messages to me was (slight paraphrasing) - "I've been told to avoid ICE protests and agents because I'm an immigrant but because I'm white English I should be ok"

 

He has since decided he might move back. Absolutely boggles my mind. 

[kenny]

18 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

They do, but they also have 10x more UPF than here, every shelf is full of XXL packs of crap full of sugar and chemicals

I get videos pop up on Facebook of American families cooking and it's mostly complete crap. Loads of powders, processed meats and sauces. As long as it has 'ranch' on the side then it goes in.

[ClaphamFox]

19 minutes ago, CornwallFox said:

Bear in mind these are ice agents, not police officers. They're there to pick up suspected foreign criminals. They were annoyed at her as she was blocking the road and all got out to tell her to get out of her car. Not sure if they have any legal jurisdiction. She drove off and one officer just quickly drew his gun and fired into the car, no real aiming, no time for thinking, he just killed her. Doesn't seem what ice are supposed to be doing.

 

Also, a medic was nearby and the ice officers refused to let him see the woman, denying her any possibility of life, even though it was likely too late.

They were angry that her vehicle was blocking the road and they got out of their vehicle, telling her to “get the **** out of the car”. She then tried to drive away, at which point one of the officer shoots three times into the driver’s window. The officer who shot her was not at risk of being hurt at the time and it looks very much like he acted in rage because she hadn’t got out of the car as instructed.

 

I know that disobeying law enforcement in the US is extremely risky, but having watched footage of the entire incident it’s hard to come to any other conclusion than Renee Nicole was brutally murdered by an ICE officer out of anger.

[Tommy G]

2 minutes ago, kenny said:

I get videos pop up on Facebook of American families cooking and it's mostly complete crap. Loads of powders, processed meats and sauces. As long as it has 'ranch' on the side then it goes in.

''Im just cooking up a chocolate cake y'all, 300g of sugar and some ranch frosting''

[danny.]

53 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough there, allow me to further clarify:

 

The belief in cultural inequality, when applied in all but the most somehow benevolent fashion, will end disastrously for our species, through conflict and/or ignorance of mutual natural problems we face. Those who believe in such inequality appear to be in a very great deal of denial about this ending and their role in it.

 

I think that denial is cognitive dissonance itself. 

The flaw in your logic, to me, is to assume that if all cultures are equal it therefore follows that it is the right thing to treat all the same, and treat well, with no changes needed for the global good.

Let me use a silly example, but the point holds. The pirate culture steals from and unalives people on the open seas. But as a culture the pirate culture is equal to all others and we must be benevolent towards them and ensure we are not piratephobic, this allows pirates to preserve their equally valid culture and continue unaliving and stealing from people of other cultures.

*Excuse the infantile TikTok language, either I'm banned again from replying or my language us flagging things

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, MC Prussian said:

The same reputable news agencies that only show one portion of an incident, in this case a 22-second video clip, with no other additional information (based on their own research)? That's not news, that's clickbait and rage bait.

What "experts" are you referring to (in this case)?

 

I was speaking in generalities when I referred to experts, given this subversion of truth to the gobbiest speaker happens in many other places, and with many other consequences, than here. 

 

And yes, reputable from the point of view that they are more likely to be taking the truth than a random in a comment section, given historical evidence.

 

2 hours ago, MC Prussian said:

 

And people who can recall the circumstances to that much of a detail in general do not tend to make things up.
 

I'm sorry, but they can, they do, they have and they will. All of those. 

 

There's a reason witness evidence alone is (the vast majority of the time) not enough to secure a conviction in court when the burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt. 

 

2 hours ago, MC Prussian said:

 

Regular cops can shoot you under particular circumstances (resisting arrest, etc), depending on the US state you're in (laws differ slightly).

 

She didn't just "happen to be in their way". She blocked ICE's path: What is an alleged "legal observer" doing there?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/renee-nicole-good-minneapolis-ice-shooting-live-updates-b2896627.html

(That's a  "reputable news agency")

 

You don't obstruct law enforcement, in particular not in the US.
If you do, you suffer the consequences. I'd rather the case of this mother be settled in court, but it's too late for that now.

"Blocked their path" = "happened to be in their way". That's the same unless you're a fan of semantics imo. 

 

And while I agree it's likely best for someone to not get in the way of US law enforcement for exactly this reason, that doesn't make the system where innocent people are killed and no one answers for it because of ridiculous and cowardly justifications in any way right, and nor does it mean that system cannot or should not change. 

 

Because all we have right now is a system where those with something on their mind can don a uniform and kill at will anyone who happens to get in their way as long as they can say (and provide the flimsiest possible pretence that) they were acting in self defence. 

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

What is a registration plate for if not to identify lawbreakers so they can be either followed or apprehended later.

Evidently too logical and too much legwork for these guys. 

 

1 hour ago, kenny said:

I'm not commenting on the story and don't wish to watch a video of someone being killed.

 

But it's not a movie or video game where the 'hero' whips out a pistol and the car grinds to a halt. In real life, as with the Kaba case, the only way to immobilise a moving vehicle safely is to hit the driver. 

Can I ask what the point of this line of reasoning is, overall?

 

1 hour ago, danny. said:

The flaw in your logic, to me, is to assume that if all cultures are equal it therefore follows that it is the right thing to treat all the same, and treat well, with no changes needed for the global good.

Let me use a silly example, but the point holds. The pirate culture steals from and unalives people on the open seas. But as a culture the pirate culture is equal to all others and we must be benevolent towards them and ensure we are not piratephobic, this allows pirates to preserve their equally valid culture and continue unaliving and stealing from people of other cultures.

*Excuse the infantile TikTok language, either I'm banned again from replying or my language us flagging things

Yes, and thus you arrive at a similar paradox that Popper talked about in terms of tolerance. 

 

As mentioned above, it's a dilemma that's incredibly difficult to solve, but I tend to come down on my side of it because I think it causes less harm than the other. Am I sure of that? No idea, but one thing I know for sure is that conflicts driven by either cultural or other reasons are a curse on our species and one we need to grow out of before we get some real problems. 

[Fazzer 7]

Apparently the woman who was shot had a young son and was a single mum, dad was deceased. So he's now an orphan. Tragic.

[danny.]

32 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Evidently too logical and too much legwork for these guys. 

 

Can I ask what the point of this line of reasoning is, overall?

 

Yes, and thus you arrive at a similar paradox that Popper talked about in terms of tolerance. 

 

As mentioned above, it's a dilemma that's incredibly difficult to solve, but I tend to come down on my side of it because I think it causes less harm than the other. Am I sure of that? No idea, but one thing I know for sure is that conflicts driven by either cultural or other reasons are a curse on our species and one we need to grow out of before we get some real problems. 

The problem is that not everyone will be benevolent and share those same views, some will do whatever they want to exploit the passive of others. We see this all the time now our own society has transitioned to a low-trust individualist society.

If you've read the The Selfish Gene by Dawkins it explains well why you can never have a society as you describe.

[CornwallFox]

2 hours ago, kenny said:

I'm not commenting on the story and don't wish to watch a video of someone being killed.

 

But it's not a movie or video game where the 'hero' whips out a pistol and the car grinds to a halt. In real life, as with the Kaba case, the only way to immobilise a moving vehicle safely is to hit the driver. 

Why did they need to immobilise the car? It was somebody annoying them, not somebody they were investigating. 

The in the video you just see the car and people outside, I haven't seen anything of the inside fortunately, that's not the sort of thing I would watch. It's more a video from mid range. And very obviously didn't need to be shooting into the car.

[danny.]

2 hours ago, kenny said:

I'm not commenting on the story and don't wish to watch a video of someone being killed.

 

But it's not a movie or video game where the 'hero' whips out a pistol and the car grinds to a halt. In real life, as with the Kaba case, the only way to immobilise a moving vehicle safely is to hit the driver. 

I have seen the video and she wasn't trying to run over anyone, she was just driving away, she wasn't near the person she was allegedly trying to run over, her wheels were in the complete opposite direction.

Obviously there is more context, was she agitating, did she seem nuts, should she have fled a law enforcement officer etc.

But fact is, she should not have been killed by a police office/jury/judge/executioner for that level of "crime", or any level.

[CornwallFox]

2 hours ago, kenny said:

I get videos pop up on Facebook of American families cooking and it's mostly complete crap. Loads of powders, processed meats and sauces. As long as it has 'ranch' on the side then it goes in.

When their celebrity chefs begin recipes with canned soup (green bean casserole basically being green beans cooked in mushroom soup) or cake mixes that it boggles the mind.

[kenny]

10 minutes ago, CornwallFox said:

Why did they need to immobilise the car? It was somebody annoying them, not somebody they were investigating. 

The in the video you just see the car and people outside, I haven't seen anything of the inside fortunately, that's not the sort of thing I would watch. It's more a video from mid range. And very obviously didn't need to be shooting into the car.

No idea.

 

My comment is only referring to those that believe that a 2t car can be stopped by a single bullet to the radiator like in the movies.

[ClaphamFox]

10 minutes ago, kenny said:

No idea.

 

My comment is only referring to those that believe that a 2t car can be stopped by a single bullet to the radiator like in the movies.

I doubt many believe it can. But as CornwallFox says, the point is that there was absolutely no need for them to stop the vehicle as the woman was just an irritation to them, not a threat to them or anybody else. The officer who murdered her did so because he was angry she disobeyed their order to get out of the car. I think most people would regard that as excessive.

[leicsmac]

38 minutes ago, danny. said:

The problem is that not everyone will be benevolent and share those same views, some will do whatever they want to exploit the passive of others. We see this all the time now our own society has transitioned to a low-trust individualist society.

If you've read the The Selfish Gene by Dawkins it explains well why you can never have a society as you describe.

If you're right about that being the predominant view in society (and you may well be, goodness knows there's enough examples and I'm familiar with The Selfish Gene), then we're all fvcked no matter what. 

 

It might be futile and it might well be wrong, but I've got to think we can do better, because if not the only thing that's left is the void, and fvck that. Even though it's likely better than an even chance you're right. 

 

I guess at some point we'll find out either way. 

[Spudulike]

3 hours ago, ClaphamFox said:

They were angry that her vehicle was blocking the road and they got out of their vehicle, telling her to “get the **** out of the car”. She then tried to drive away, at which point one of the officer shoots three times into the driver’s window. The officer who shot her was not at risk of being hurt at the time and it looks very much like he acted in rage because she hadn’t got out of the car as instructed.

 

I know that disobeying law enforcement in the US is extremely risky, but having watched footage of the entire incident it’s hard to come to any other conclusion than Renee Nicole was brutally murdered by an ICE officer out of anger.

There's a video from another angle that shows the officer being hit as the car sweeps around a moment before he shoots. Doesn't appear to be deliberate by the driver but the officer had a split second to assess the motivation and take action.

[Tommy G]

Generally American cops hold guns and can't wait to use them, probably view them similar to tasers  in the UK. The only difference is everyone else seems to be armed up to their eye balls too, so you will naturally be a bit more trigger happy if you think someone has a pistol down the front of their shorts - not sure this lady falls into that category.

[Md9]

It’s crazy that within half hour of it happening all of maga went full on attack that she deserve it because she is a raging left lunatic that tried to kill him with his car with out even knowing what fully went on. Noem tried saying he had been ran over and in hospital when he didn’t and walked  away from it on camera. No sympathy for the lady that died no calling for calm just all out trying to stir stuff to cause more chaos instead of dealing with the situation in any kind of decent manner