General News Thread

[bovril]

4 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

That includes legal migrants of course (who are much easier to count). One of the main effects of Brexit was essentially swapping cheap labour from Europe with cheap labour from Africa and Asia.

The difference is with Europe it did of course work both ways and millions of Brits also went to work in the EU. Not so much in Africa and the subcontinent. 

[CosbehFox]

15 minutes ago, bovril said:

This is quite noticeable in London and I imagine a lot of English cities in that service jobs that seemed to be done mostly by Europeans, especially Spanish, Italians and Eastern Europeans, are now almost exclusively done by Indians, to the extent that some chain cafes, supermarkets and stores like boots are staffed totally by Indians. It's a big change and I'm surprised that 'nuance' you mention is lost in the debate. The change may have happened anyway even without Brexit, since a lot of Eastern Europeans are returning home from Western Europe as their countries' economies improve. But it is always fascinating that millions of Farage curious Brits appear to see this as a 'betrayal' of Brexit. 

Precisely. I suspect you can throw in low rates of international students arriving too. 

 

There's lots of talk about large sweeping policies which affects that wave of immigration. Personally I know a Lithuanian lad here who's just had a child. Has a business, pays into the system etc and is concerned that these talks around ILR. 

 

In comparison, the last recorded 12 months suggests 44k illegal immigrants were received. 

[Vowels]

1 hour ago, CosbehFox said:

Which has been the case since the data was captured within that graph. 

Correct; so, meaningless.

[CornwallFox]

1 hour ago, Tommy G said:

Compare him to both Blair and Cameron - so we have a balanced view. Both had energy, charisma and strong leadership despite what you thought of their political stance (no need to reply about the Iraq War or Brexit, thats not what my point is). 

 

Starmer doesn't have it. Andy Burnham or Wes Streeting are both ahead of him in that regard.

Yeah something is missing. 

 

I'm pretty left wing but even I voted for Cameron in 2010. He talked as a centrist and the brown government seemed tired and out of ideas. It's fair to say I've never regretted one of my votes more. Austerity has been the single just damaging policy since mass privatisation of public utilities. It's the single reason for Farage, Brexit and reform imo.

 

But ignoring that bit of politics, on your central point, I'm not sure why it's missing. You may disagree but I think starmar is actually a very decent and honest man who is trying to do what he thinks is right for the country. But he's just not getting it across.

 

The right wing media have been like wolves from the outset and the online bot campaign that is pro reform (we can all have our own guesses as to who is funding it) and it's hard to know if anybody could cut through. 

 

I do like streeting though. My GB news obsessed dad seems to quite like Burnham. I think I have concluded that the things that bother left and right - aside from identity politics and immigration - are pretty similar. We all think ordinary people are getting screwed. It's just we have very different answers to how to fix that. Burnham does seem to be able to cut through a little. 

[CosbehFox]

40 minutes ago, Vowels said:

Correct; so, meaningless.

Really not because it shows a trend. That's the point. The country has spent a bizarre period acting on hunches and non evidenced claims. It needs calling out. 
 

 

Edited 2 October 2025 by CosbehFox

[Wymsey]

Not this again..

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cx2703lnww4t

 

[Vowels]

25 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

Really not because it shows a trend. That's the point. The country has spent a bizarre period acting on hunches and non evidenced claims. It needs calling out. 
 

 

Its likely using official statistics pertaining to known/legal immigration.

 

It also only runs until June 2024; so it really doesn't have much bearing on the discussions in the last three months, as you stated. 

 

Rubbish in, rubbish out. Just because its in a graph format, it doesn't mean the data is any good.

 

That and the old 'lies, damn lies and statistics' thing; and data generally being presented with some sort of discourse.

 

I would bet that if you tried hard enough you could find some data to prove that the economy is in a great shape, society is better than ever etc etc etc and put it all in a pretty graph if you wanted to.

 

I'm not being deliberately obtuse, or targeting you here. I just don't think any real conclusion can be drawn from that graph other than the trends from 1992 to June 2024 (note its now October 2025; 16 months later) in terms of known, legal immigration to the UK.

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Vowels said:

Its likely using official statistics pertaining to known/legal immigration.

 

It also only runs until June 2024; so it really doesn't have much bearing on the discussions in the last three months, as you stated. 

 

Rubbish in, rubbish out. Just because its in a graph format, it doesn't mean the data is any good.

 

That and the old 'lies, damn lies and statistics' thing; and data generally being presented with some sort of discourse.

 

I would bet that if you tried hard enough you could find some data to prove that the economy is in a great shape, society is better than ever etc etc etc and put it all in a pretty graph if you wanted to.

 

I'm not being deliberately obtuse, or targeting you here. I just don't think any real conclusion can be drawn from that graph other than the trends from 1992 to June 2024 (note its now October 2025; 16 months later) in terms of known, legal immigration to the UK.

While I understand the argument here, it can be (and sometimes is) extrapolated to any dataset and therefore any conclusion derived from it whatsoever. 

 

And we're already seeing the consequences when that thought is applied to some areas of policymaking that rely on such datasets. 

 

"No one is invalidated, but no one is right..."

 

"... and that's the way the world ends. Not with a bang, but with a whimper."

 

At some point, people are going to have to take at least some numbers and how they're arrived at on faith and trust the action made because of them. The alternative ends very, very badly - inevitably, and in short order. 

[Lionator]

53 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

Not this again..

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cx2703lnww4t

 

Absolutely infuriating, a disaster for the local Jewish community, a disaster for the wider community as a whole, a disaster for Jewish people living in the UK and a disaster for the wider Palestinian cause which will suffer as a result of this act of terror. 

[Wymsey]

Two members of the public have died.

 

The suspected gunman is also apparently, but can't be confirmed if it's the gunman due to possible bomb on him.

Edited 2 October 2025 by Wymsey

[fox_up_north]

Have a few Jewish friends around Manchester. Safe to say their levels of comfort have dropped through the floor and they were already pretty low. 

[Corky]

Just horrifying.

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, Lionator said:

Absolutely infuriating, a disaster for the local Jewish community, a disaster for the wider community as a whole, a disaster for Jewish people living in the UK and a disaster for the wider Palestinian cause which will suffer as a result of this act of terror. 

Yeah further division. A horrific act 

[MadsEmil]

How much thicker does the bullet proof glass need to be, how much higher the security fences at Jewish institutions, how much more can we demand the Jewish community hide itself than it already does? 

 

It's pathetic. It's a direct result of pandering to a very specific crowd that has been spouting violent rhetoric ever since October 2023.

[danny.]

34 minutes ago, MadsEmil said:

How much thicker does the bullet proof glass need to be, how much higher the security fences at Jewish institutions, how much more can we demand the Jewish community hide itself than it already does? 

 

It's pathetic. It's a direct result of pandering to a very specific crowd that has been spouting violent rhetoric ever since October 2023.

Can't say I'm surprised, the amount of Islamophilia and antisemitism in the UK is wild.

[MadsEmil]

8 minutes ago, danny. said:

Can't say I'm surprised, the amount of Islamophilia and antisemitism in the UK is wild.

"Progressive" folk betraying their own values of freedom, democracy, equality just so they get a chance to stand hand in hand with people who don't even respect them as human beings while shouting death to the common enemy.

 

Every single one of these attacks, violent rhetoric spouting marches, or even bands who think it's okay to glorify any of this, shows Jews once more that they did the right thing by creating a safe haven of a country and that they're doing the right thing by not listening to the world when it comes to its security. Because they'll never be safe here in Europe. Because politicians and the people have utterly failed them. The Shoah wasn't a mistake or mishap, it was wanted, wanted by not only an egomaniac dictator but also the common people. 

Edited 2 October 2025 by MadsEmil

[danny.]

2 minutes ago, MadsEmil said:

"Progressive" folk betraying their own values of freedom, democracy, equality just so they get a chance to stand hand in hand with people who don't even respect them as human beings while shouting death to the common enemy.

 

Every single one of these attacks, violent rhetoric spouting marches, or even bands who think it's okay to glorify any of this, shows Jews once more that they did the right thing by creating a safe haven of a country and that they're doing the right thing by not listening to the world when it comes to its security.

Yup, breathtaking levels of cognitive dissonance. So many on the left hugely against homophobia and misogyny (and rightly so), and simultaneously pro-Islam, which preaches homophobia and misogyny. 

[bovril]

I sometimes wonder if some people have paragraphs ready to be copy pasted in the event of high profile attacks

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, bovril said:

I sometimes wonder if some people have paragraphs ready to be copy pasted in the event of high profile attacks

And it's interesting to read references to cognitive dissonance as if tens of thousands of innocent people haven't been kille- sorry, "collateral damage that will be investigated" in the past two years. 

 

People want to pick a side, that's fine, but if they want to claim clean(er) hands either way, that's a big claim.

[danny.]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

And it's interesting to read references to cognitive dissonance as if tens of thousands of innocent people haven't been kille- sorry, "collateral damage that will be investigated" in the past two years. 

 

People want to pick a side, that's fine, but if they want to claim clean(er) hands either way, that's a big claim.

What does cognitive dissonance regarding ideologies have to do with that? 

Feels like a classic appeal to emotion/whataboutism fallacy....
 

Edited 2 October 2025 by danny.

[Lionator]

1 hour ago, MadsEmil said:

"Progressive" folk betraying their own values of freedom, democracy, equality just so they get a chance to stand hand in hand with people who don't even respect them as human beings while shouting death to the common enemy.

 

Every single one of these attacks, violent rhetoric spouting marches, or even bands who think it's okay to glorify any of this, shows Jews once more that they did the right thing by creating a safe haven of a country and that they're doing the right thing by not listening to the world when it comes to its security. Because they'll never be safe here in Europe. Because politicians and the people have utterly failed them. The Shoah wasn't a mistake or mishap, it was wanted, wanted by not only an egomaniac dictator but also the common people. 

This is ok, and it’s understandable why people feel this way. But it’s also true that what BN and the I*DF are doing is much of the same, with an even more powerful hammer. 

[Lionator]

1 hour ago, danny. said:

Yup, breathtaking levels of cognitive dissonance. So many on the left hugely against homophobia and misogyny (and rightly so), and simultaneously pro-Islam, which preaches homophobia and misogyny. 

While I understand how it looks hypocritical this oversimplifies the situation. One can hope for social change and also be anti-mass murder of an ethnic group in their homeland 

[danny.]

1 minute ago, Lionator said:

While I understand how it looks hypocritical this oversimplifies the situation. One can hope for social change and also be anti-mass murder of an ethnic group in their homeland 

I was talking about the wider landscape, but agree with you on this. Murder is never ok, under any circumstances.

[StanSP]

Just heard it took 7 mins for emergency services to get the assailant shot. 

 

Fair play to them. That's rapid

[Raj]

Dont know why my post was deleted?

 

Hope the wider muslim community condemns this horrendous attack.

 

Unfortunately was coming with all the anti semitic and free Palestine  sentiment in this country.

 

Governments have given a free license to a certain sector of community to spread hatred against another community.

 

Imagine being a Jew walking around being surrounded in areas with Palestine  flags everywhere.

 

Country has to be careful where this could  go.