6 point deduction - confirmed

[Terraloon]

I would really recommend that people read the sanctions agreement the Chelsea case is a classic example where something is believed to be so but the evidence, yes evidence , has been assessed and said the advice is that’s unlikely to meet the standard to meet the balance of probability standard.In. Other words nothing is as clear cut as it seems.

 

1) We know that when Chelsea’s owners went through due diligence they discovered incomplete financial reporting.

2) It is said that none of the payments in question came from Chelsea’s bank account but came from a variety of Abromvichs accounts.

3) The PL tried to gain information/ context from 3rd parties that received monies but they wouldn’t engage.

4) The PL tried to gain information/ context from past directors and employees but again they wouldn’t engage.
5) The PL state that the new owners allowed the PL full access to historic records and even offered up possible but not proven  explanations even to the point of those explanations being to the club’s detriment but in these instances there was nothing to prove or disprove their  theories.

I try to be fair minded in this and can’t but help feel that Chelsea’s owners have been very clever in all this. It’s easy to suggest that the PL have treated them in a preferential way but unless the settlement agreement isn’t accurate I somehow doubt even though they self reported ( they didn’t admit guilt as some have suggested) it seems to me that the PL were  not able to prove and legal advice would direct them and the fact that a massive sum was kept back to settle regulatory offences committed under Abromavich  meant that £10+ million was seems as a way to end it and those Chelsea owners weren’t paying that sum from their coffers!

[Stadt]

1 hour ago, Foxdiamond said:

Odd logic. Rather it illustrates the football authorities are not fit for purpose 

They’re inconsistent and all over the place but whatever they are Top is worse. The authorities have deducted us 6 points but Top & Rudkin have been worth about -15 each season for the past 5.

[Foxdiamond]

1 minute ago, Stadt said:

They’re inconsistent and all over the place but whatever they are Top is worse. The authorities have deducted us 6 points but Top & Rudkin have been worth about -15 each season for the past 5.

No argument from me about our mismanagement but galling that the business of football is so bent

[Parker Pen]

The Chelsea case is easily False Accounting or Fraud by false representation and they should be investigated criminally for this!

 

A fine is laughable when you consider the sporting sanction being absolute zero in comparison for Luton historically, Everton, Forest and now us. 
 

The sentencing guidelines being manipulated to suit Chelsea by the So called independent commission is embarrassing.

[ClaphamFox]

 

[UniFox21]

5 hours ago, Lambert09 said:

@st albans fox @Jon the Hat

 

a long but important read for those who want to see the connection between the cases and why the premier league are fragrantly manipulating the rules for certain clubs. 
 

 

 

 

For once, this is really good piece. 

 

The section on Chelsea having the same mitigating circumstances applied 3 times to reduces 3 different punishments is hilarious.

 

How it's been deemed that £50m worth of secret payments to players/agents etc etc isn't for competitive gain, and the fact it has been hidden for over 7 years is also laughable. "The acts of former owners" being a term used to reduce punishment as well. 

 

Laughing stock.

[Sly]

This entire approach to Team X getting a fine because they did this, then Team Z getting a points deduction, for frankly just trying to break the glass ceiling to get similar treatment to Team X is crazy.

 

The Premier League broke away from the Football League in 1992, due to the top clubs wanting a bigger share of the pie. The Premier League has slowly lost control of spending and they’re now trying to reign if in. That horse has bolted.

 

If the Football League / Premier League doesn’t get its act together, then the many will stop fearing the few. The few should rebel. 

 

If the rest rebelled and formed a new league without the teams that get entitlement, then those 6 tank. 90% of the English football pyramid doesn’t care about European football. Go form your Super League if I’m honest. Why is non league becoming more popular. It’s football at its heart and still played in an enjoyable fashion. 
 

 

The EFL contracts expire in 27/28 I believe. Any new league should be working now to setup a streaming service or doing a deal with Netflix or Amazon. Followed by establishing a new league setup that sees teams reward equally with clearly defined rules and teams are treated equally. 

 

I wouldn’t be adverse to combining the Scottish, Welsh, English, Northern Irish leagues etc either, as these are failing as well realistically. We are stronger together.
 

Other sports get this right.

[Claudio Fannieri]

10 hours ago, Terraloon said:

I would really recommend that people read the sanctions agreement the Chelsea case is a classic example where something is believed to be so but the evidence, yes evidence , has been assessed and said the advice is that’s unlikely to meet the standard to meet the balance of probability standard.In. Other words nothing is as clear cut as it seems.

 

1) We know that when Chelsea’s owners went through due diligence they discovered incomplete financial reporting.

2) It is said that none of the payments in question came from Chelsea’s bank account but came from a variety of Abromvichs accounts.

3) The PL tried to gain information/ context from 3rd parties that received monies but they wouldn’t engage.

4) The PL tried to gain information/ context from past directors and employees but again they wouldn’t engage.
5) The PL state that the new owners allowed the PL full access to historic records and even offered up possible but not proven  explanations even to the point of those explanations being to the club’s detriment but in these instances there was nothing to prove or disprove their  theories.

I try to be fair minded in this and can’t but help feel that Chelsea’s owners have been very clever in all this. It’s easy to suggest that the PL have treated them in a preferential way but unless the settlement agreement isn’t accurate I somehow doubt even though they self reported ( they didn’t admit guilt as some have suggested) it seems to me that the PL were  not able to prove and legal advice would direct them and the fact that a massive sum was kept back to settle regulatory offences committed under Abromavich  meant that £10+ million was seems as a way to end it and those Chelsea owners weren’t paying that sum from their coffers!

I believe as a condition of the sale, when the new owners selfed reported, they were able to knock £150m off the purchase price in addition they will also recover the fine. So all in all by self reporting Blueco have benefitted significantly, whilst the club have not been punished very harshly at all. 
 

My biggest concern is that this will now be used as the barometer for the Man City case and they will conveniently end up with a much larger fine and some sort of transfer embargo but avoid a points deduction on the grounds it’s not a direct PSR breach. 

[Wasyls Pec Deck]

24 minutes ago, Claudio Fannieri said:

I believe as a condition of the sale, when the new owners selfed reported, they were able to knock £150m off the purchase price in addition they will also recover the fine. So all in all by self reporting Blueco have benefitted significantly, whilst the club have not been punished very harshly at all. 
 

My biggest concern is that this will now be used as the barometer for the Man City case and they will conveniently end up with a much larger fine and some sort of transfer embargo but avoid a points deduction on the grounds it’s not a direct PSR breach. 

Man City have broke the rules like no other club in the English leagues. There is no precedent, and yet they are arguably too big to go after in a way that is fair and proportionate to how other clubs have been dealt with. Points deductions and stripping them of honours will make their product a joke. Having said that if the PL aren’t seen to do justice what is left of their integrity is in tatters. So they’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t, and they will clearly go for the lesser punishment that supposedly maintains their product but irreparably damages what domestic fans think of them. 

[ozleicester]

The game is fvcked

[jammie82uk]

1 hour ago, Claudio Fannieri said:

My biggest concern is that this will now be used as the barometer for the Man City case and they will conveniently end up with a much larger fine and some sort of transfer embargo but avoid a points deduction on the grounds it’s not a direct PSR breach. 

Let’s face it, The breaches have put Man City into a position where very little throw at them will affect them for more then 1 season, 50 point deduction means they won’t qualify for Europe by league position but will be safe from relegation based on last 5 seasons points average that Man City have scored, a Monetary Fine is pointless, due to the Squad they have a Transfer ban won’t impact them too much either much either 

[slymunn]

13 hours ago, Terraloon said:

I would really recommend that people read the sanctions agreement the Chelsea case is a classic example where something is believed to be so but the evidence, yes evidence , has been assessed and said the advice is that’s unlikely to meet the standard to meet the balance of probability standard.In. Other words nothing is as clear cut as it seems.

 

1) We know that when Chelsea’s owners went through due diligence they discovered incomplete financial reporting.

2) It is said that none of the payments in question came from Chelsea’s bank account but came from a variety of Abromvichs accounts.

3) The PL tried to gain information/ context from 3rd parties that received monies but they wouldn’t engage.

4) The PL tried to gain information/ context from past directors and employees but again they wouldn’t engage.
5) The PL state that the new owners allowed the PL full access to historic records and even offered up possible but not proven  explanations even to the point of those explanations being to the club’s detriment but in these instances there was nothing to prove or disprove their  theories.

I try to be fair minded in this and can’t but help feel that Chelsea’s owners have been very clever in all this. It’s easy to suggest that the PL have treated them in a preferential way but unless the settlement agreement isn’t accurate I somehow doubt even though they self reported ( they didn’t admit guilt as some have suggested) it seems to me that the PL were  not able to prove and legal advice would direct them and the fact that a massive sum was kept back to settle regulatory offences committed under Abromavich  meant that £10+ million was seems as a way to end it and those Chelsea owners weren’t paying that sum from their coffers!

Some of the payments went towards youth players as well, which they have sold at full 'PSR Profit' as well as selling hotels and the women's team to comply with PSR. The fact with went through over people was a way to avoid it on the financial records.

Its good that Bohley mentioned this, but they have still gained from youth players within the years of 2019-2022.

[Jazzy_Jeff]

This might have come at a good time for us. Surely an independent adjudicator would say that you can’t dock points from a team for doing what we’ve done but give a) Chelsea a slap on the wrist for much worse and b) nothing for Man City yet 

[Terraloon]

3 hours ago, slymunn said:

Some of the payments went towards youth players as well, which they have sold at full 'PSR Profit' as well as selling hotels and the women's team to comply with PSR. The fact with went through over people was a way to avoid it on the financial records.

Its good that Bohley mentioned this, but they have still gained from youth players within the years of 2019-2022.

It’s important not to mix up things that were done in accord with the rules ( no matter how wrong those rules appear) with things that weren’t right such as payments going to say player’s family via third parties. 
 

Sorry but I think you are maybe a little naive if you think that Chelsea are the only one that has operated in this way for instance Brighton not that long ago had to agree a settlement with the FA over payments .

 

Football was ( not so much now) a cash industry in the day club after club understated attendances and had an illicit cash fund that was used to grease palms, pay players monies outside contracts often this was referred to as boot money.

 

Nowadays it’s not so straight forward but it’s not just Chelsea that have used  agents / representatives that aren’t registered or payments have been made via an account not under the control of the club.

 

Its easy to point the finger at Chelsea and yes their new owners haven’t been able to explain why payments from Abromvich were made to , for instance, the owner of a club where they signed both Willian and Eto from or indeed other vast sums but the likelihood is that most if not all clubs have skeletons in their cupboards! 

[Terraloon]

1 hour ago, Jazzy_Jeff said:

This might have come at a good time for us. Surely an independent adjudicator would say that you can’t dock points from a team for doing what we’ve done but give a) Chelsea a slap on the wrist for much worse and b) nothing for Man City yet 

Think you are wishing something that really isn’t going to happen.

[slymunn]

21 minutes ago, Terraloon said:

Sorry but I think you are maybe a little naive if you think that Chelsea are the only one that has operated in this way for instance Brighton not that long ago had to agree a settlement with the FA over payments .

I'm not naive to the facts (I posted a pictures relating to Lutons fine on the last page) but was talking about the Chelsea case rather than other clubs history of wrongdoings

 

Chelsea got two fines in this, as well as a youth transfer ban so tapping up players for gain and profit which does affect PSR calculations through sales.

[OntarioFox]

2 hours ago, Jazzy_Jeff said:

This might have come at a good time for us. Surely an independent adjudicator would say that you can’t dock points from a team for doing what we’ve done but give a) Chelsea a slap on the wrist for much worse and b) nothing for Man City yet 

Straw clutching I'm afraid

[Stavros81]

4 minutes ago, OntarioFox said:

Straw clutching I'm afraid

Yeah as if the Premier League care about little old Leicester. EFL have had it in for us all season. Establishment is corrupt only favours the big teams 

[UniFox21]

45 minutes ago, Terraloon said:

It’s important not to mix up things that were done in accord with the rules ( no matter how wrong those rules appear) with things that weren’t right such as payments going to say player’s family via third parties. 
 

Sorry but I think you are maybe a little naive if you think that Chelsea are the only one that has operated in this way for instance Brighton not that long ago had to agree a settlement with the FA over payments .

 

Football was ( not so much now) a cash industry in the day club after club understated attendances and had an illicit cash fund that was used to grease palms, pay players monies outside contracts often this was referred to as boot money.

 

Nowadays it’s not so straight forward but it’s not just Chelsea that have used  agents / representatives that aren’t registered or payments have been made via an account not under the control of the club.

 

Its easy to point the finger at Chelsea and yes their new owners haven’t been able to explain why payments from Abromvich were made to , for instance, the owner of a club where they signed both Willian and Eto from or indeed other vast sums but the likelihood is that most if not all clubs have skeletons in their cupboards! 

All clubs having skeletons doesn't suddenly make one set being found not punishable however. 

 

The main issue here is the lack of punishment Chelsea have faced. 

[Terraloon]

37 minutes ago, slymunn said:

I'm not naive to the facts (I posted a pictures relating to Lutons fine on the last page) but was talking about the Chelsea case rather than other clubs history of wrongdoings

 

Chelsea got two fines in this, as well as a youth transfer ban so tapping up players for gain and profit which does affect PSR calculations through sales.

There was no doubt that the points deduction on Luton was draconian but Luton’s issues at the time regarding entering administration on more than one occasion added to their seemingly lesser issues  but the FA believed and so it turned out  ,were able to be proven in front of an IC . That it is stated is where the PL believed their case against Chelsea differed.

 

The second Chelsea fine came about not because of any complaint by anyone but it was the way in which a senior member of staff conducted themselves and it was their new owners that flagged up what had happened.

 

I should add that there are still the 74 cases they have been charged by the FA and it was their new owners FA that deducted those points from Luton 

 

Edited 18 March by Terraloon

[coolhandfox]

For me, it’s fundamentally about sporting advantage; whether a club is breaking rules on PSR, third‑party payments to players or agents, tapping up players, or how they handle youth development. Chelsea and Manchester City have enjoyed as much, if not more, sporting advantage as the clubs punished for PSR breaches, yet that isn’t reflected in the sanctions they’ve received.

 

You could even argue that the behaviour of the ‘Big Six’, who have repeatedly pushed or bent the rules has created the pressure for other clubs to stretch the boundaries just to keep up.

 

The whole ecosystem is so out of balance that teams end up walking a financial tightrope just to try and break the glass ceiling. Take Aston Villa, for example. At the end of the day, the football ecosystem is broken: fewer than 20% of the 92 league clubs made a profit in 23/24, and until the game confronts the real cost drivers, transfer fees, player wages, and agent payments clubs will keep falling foul of these rules.

 

It’s similar to a nuclear arms race: once the biggest clubs push the limits, everyone else feels compelled to escalate just to survive. The result is an unsustainable cycle where clubs take bigger risks, spend beyond their means, and inevitably fall foul of the rules.

[LCFCJohn]

16 hours ago, UniFox21 said:

For once, this is really good piece. 

 

The section on Chelsea having the same mitigating circumstances applied 3 times to reduces 3 different punishments is hilarious.

 

How it's been deemed that £50m worth of secret payments to players/agents etc etc isn't for competitive gain, and the fact it has been hidden for over 7 years is also laughable. "The acts of former owners" being a term used to reduce punishment as well. 

 

Laughing stock.

But it’s fine for Wednesday to be punished over again for the actions of one man who is now also a former owner. Absolute hypocrisy.

[PhillippaT]

30 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

For me, it’s fundamentally about sporting advantage; whether a club is breaking rules on PSR, third‑party payments to players or agents, tapping up players, or how they handle youth development. Chelsea and Manchester City have enjoyed as much, if not more, sporting advantage as the clubs punished for PSR breaches, yet that isn’t reflected in the sanctions they’ve received.

 

You could even argue that the behaviour of the ‘Big Six’, who have repeatedly pushed or bent the rules has created the pressure for other clubs to stretch the boundaries just to keep up.

 

The whole ecosystem is so out of balance that teams end up walking a financial tightrope just to try and break the glass ceiling. Take Aston Villa, for example. At the end of the day, the football ecosystem is broken: fewer than 20% of the 92 league clubs made a profit in 23/24, and until the game confronts the real cost drivers, transfer fees, player wages, and agent payments clubs will keep falling foul of these rules.

 

It’s similar to a nuclear arms race: once the biggest clubs push the limits, everyone else feels compelled to escalate just to survive. The result is an unsustainable cycle where clubs take bigger risks, spend beyond their means, and inevitably fall foul of the rules.

The English Football Pyramid (Scheme)   

Edited 18 March by PhillippaT

[1884HF]

I completely agree that the EFL and prem are blatantly corrupt and the treatment of Wednesday and the hypocrisy with Chelsea is ridiculous but I won’t talk about us like that because we were lucky af when we deserved more and brought it on ourselves 

[Parker Pen]

Just look at football eating itself up! The game has well and truly gone. All football is nowadays is global money laundering.
Senegal being stripped of the AFCON title and awarding it to Morroco is the latest example. Stinks of corruption! Let’s not forget from a sporting perspective that Brahim Diaz tried a Panenka style penalty when the teams reappeared. What a TWAT!
The delay was nothing worse than the teams being off for crowd disorder or a Premier League VAR check when a lower team score against a so called big six team.

 

After the Chelsea ruling, and regardless of our incompetence I would love to see us have our full six points reinstated on appeal just to see the reaction; A hand  grenade rolled into the room with the pin out springs to mind!