Soar Fox Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 League goals are more important in my opinion. Yes 4 goals, 3 against a shocking Forest side, 1 tap in against Chelsea and also 2 against a League 2 team. Also I think leeds can afford 30k wages max, he only came here for the because it took all day to get him on deadline day, that says to me that he wanted more money, whereas his heart and passion is in Leeds, also how do you know that they can't afford him? How do you he wants to go back to Leeds? How do you know he only came here for the money? Bet you were one of those celebrating and singing "we're going to wembley" when he was scoring in the cup run.
Babylon Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 I didn't say he had a good season - I pointed out that his scoring record wasn't disimilar to Nugent and he played less games. He played 2 games less. Now considering he only scored in 7 league games ALL SEASON, I'm not sure two extra games would have made that much of a dent into Nugents league goal tally. I'm happy for him to get another shot, I'm far from convinced by the bloke though. With a different set of players around him though who knows. But I think a major factor here is that Pearson likes parity in the squad, not to have 2/3/4 under performing players, on vastly greater wages than other people who might actually be performing.
sphericalfox Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 He played 2 games less. Now considering he only scored in 7 league games ALL SEASON, I'm not sure two extra games would have made that much of a dent into Nugents league goal tally. I'm happy for him to get another shot, I'm far from convinced by the bloke though. With a different set of players around him though who knows. But I think a major factor here is that Pearson likes parity in the squad, not to have 2/3/4 under performing players, on vastly greater wages than other people who might actually be performing. Being devils advocate, how many of Beckford's appearances, so we are using the correct stats to lambast him, were substitute appearances? How many of these substitute appearances were with 10 minutes or less to go before the final whistle? I distinctly remember numerous occasions were he was brought on to make a difference with very little time to do so. So comparably, and I don't have the stats to hand, I'd probably hazard an educated guess that minute-wise (though there's two games between them) that Nooge played considerably more minutes, as he usually started matches rather than coming off the bench. More than happy to be ridiculed.
Guest Col city fan Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 But it is his fault that his control is conference standard, if he'd been able to control the ball we might have been able to link up much better. As it was it would hit his feet and bounce off in a random direction. He also missed a shit load of sitters, so his finishing wasn't great either. Again, you have hit the nail on the head IMO. In respect of Beckford's 'first touch'... I have been surprised, nay shocked at just how bad this is. When I've talked about the the team 'defending as a team' this is exactly what I'm on about. When under pressure, especially away from home, its crucial that the forwards have the ability to simply make the ball stick at their feet.. to relieve the pressure on the rest of the players and to regain some shape. Time after time, the ball has come up to Beckford and its bobbled away in some random fashion, only to give possession straight back to the opposition. This is a cardinal sin for any striker, and its been apparent on many occasions that Pearson has been completely pissed off by this. Regarding Beckford's 'finishing'...this is hit and miss..for as many chances that he's cooly slotted away, he's also gone on to fluff the next one (a little like Matty Fryatt to be fair)...such that his chances to goals ratio is not as good as many think. The major problem about Beckford, for me, is those games when he simply appears to just 'go missing'.... I attended many matches last season, especially away from home, where I would turn to my mates and ask 'has Jermaine had a touch yet'?... then he would typically get subbed off just after half time. Both in terms of League goals scored and overall contribution to the team, I simply think there are better options out there than Beckford and I don't want to see another completely indifferent season from him, especially not with the alleged wages he commands.
Babylon Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 Being devils advocate, how many of Beckford's appearances, so we are using the correct stats to lambast him, were substitute appearances? How many of these substitute appearances were with 10 minutes or less to go before the final whistle? I distinctly remember numerous occasions were he was brought on to make a difference with very little time to do so. So comparably, and I don't have the stats to hand, I'd probably hazard an educated guess that minute-wise (though there's two games between them) that Nooge played considerably more minutes, as he usually started matches rather than coming off the bench. More than happy to be ridiculed. I don't know and I'll be buggered if I'm working it out, but you are correct he did play some games from the bench.
dayday Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 The lack of creativity last season was our big downfall last season,against the lesser teams we struggled to breakdown last season and were caught on the counter on numerous occasions. The lesser teams parked the bus this would not ave suited Beckfords game,not defending him because as mentioned his poor control and hold up play lets him down,i have know stats to hand but how many goals did he score against the likes of Millwall,Forest,Bristol City etc....not many i guess. Which then points to Pearson,why play somebody against these teams knowing he is going to be ineffective?
Guest Col city fan Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 He played 2 games less. Now considering he only scored in 7 league games ALL SEASON, I'm not sure two extra games would have made that much of a dent into Nugents league goal tally. I'm happy for him to get another shot, I'm far from convinced by the bloke though. With a different set of players around him though who knows. But I think a major factor here is that Pearson likes parity in the squad, not to have 2/3/4 under performing players, on vastly greater wages than other people who might actually be performing. Thats where we disagree Babs.... with your comments about his 'conference-like' first touch and 'chances missed'... why do you then go on to say you'd be willing to take the risk of another season of this. You usually 'nail your colours to the mast', which I respect, but not in this case... why not?
davieG Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 It is possible to minimise the effect of certain weakness by the way you play the game, for example if the midfield were more capable of playing defence splitting passes along the ground for the likes of Beckford to run on to then the need for a controlling first touch is reduced. As for missed chances there are plenty of reasons for them and not many of them are down to a lack of skills and I'm fairly sure Nugent missed a fair number as well but perhaps these weren't so noticeable because he was seen in a positive light from the off so his 'mistakes' where 'accepted' PS I'm not a big fan of Beckford
sphericalfox Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 I don't know and I'll be buggered if I'm working it out, but you are correct he did play some games from the bench. Suppose I should have found these first. Jermaine's Stats Nooge's Stats Going back to what I mentioned, I remember the majority of substitutions that Beckford had were infuriatingly late by Pearson. Not enough time to make an impact as either the impetus was lost or frankly no time to get into the game. I won't bother going through the actual games and see who were playing and whether they were at home or away, as frankly it doesn't really matter. Some of the stats that people are using, and Babs your a stickler for pulling people up, are leaning on the bizarre and interpretive. if you dismiss at least (from my memory) of the wasted sub appearances then Beckford's stats start leaning towards a more positive contribution. People made their minds up about Beckford well before he signed on the dotted line. Yes he's not the perfect striker, he has flaws, but given more support from an attacking midfield he'll score goals. If the reason he is possibly going, is to reduce the wage bill, and we can find a partnership that will fire us to the Prem, then I won't complain. but those saying that with him remaining in the team we will find it more difficult to achieve our aims is bordering on the line of stubbornness.
Soar Fox Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 Beckford could score 20 league goals next season and people will still find something to moan about. Just look at Yakubu all he did was score goals and even then that wasn't good enough for some people.
Guest Col city fan Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 It is possible to minimise the effect of certain weakness by the way you play the game, for example if the midfield were more capable of playing defence splitting passes along the ground for the likes of Beckford to run on to then the need for a controlling first touch is reduced. As for missed chances there are plenty of reasons for them and not many of them are down to a lack of skills and I'm fairly sure Nugent missed a fair number as well but perhaps these weren't so noticeable because he was seen in a positive light from the off so his 'mistakes' where 'accepted' PS I'm not a big fan of Beckford Whilst I agree that the City side is currently lacking midfield flair, those 'slide-rule' passes that are made to the forwards are often encouraged by the runs that the forwards make. I remember watching Tony Cottee for Leicester, and this was when he was in the twilight of his career. He instinctively knew where to position himself on the pitch, in relation to his strike partner, such that the pass coming in to him from the midfield was 'encouraged' by his clever movement. He would effectively make himself his own space. Dickov was also excellent at this. The lack of that killer pass being made to Beckford, is, in my opinion, as much about Beckford not making that 'clever run' or that 'space' for himself, as it is about us not having the players to make that pass. Beckford, for me anyway, so often runs into 'blind alleys' that there is literally no pass to make to him. The one main exception to this was the fantastic run he made at Norwich, which literally made Nugent's goal for him. It is a shame that our two strikers could not develop such an understanding more frequently last season, because they simply didn't.
Mark_w Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 Suppose I should have found these first. Jermaine's Stats Nooge's Stats Going back to what I mentioned, I remember the majority of substitutions that Beckford had were infuriatingly late by Pearson. Not enough time to make an impact as either the impetus was lost or frankly no time to get into the game. I won't bother going through the actual games and see who were playing and whether they were at home or away, as frankly it doesn't really matter. Some of the stats that people are using, and Babs your a stickler for pulling people up, are leaning on the bizarre and interpretive. if you dismiss at least (from my memory) of the wasted sub appearances then Beckford's stats start leaning towards a more positive contribution. People made their minds up about Beckford well before he signed on the dotted line. Yes he's not the perfect striker, he has flaws, but given more support from an attacking midfield he'll score goals. If the reason he is possibly going, is to reduce the wage bill, and we can find a partnership that will fire us to the Prem, then I won't complain. but those saying that with him remaining in the team we will find it more difficult to achieve our aims is bordering on the line of stubbornness. According to those stats Beckford only came on off the bench 6 times not that often is it. And as for your point about Pearson bringing him on 'infuriatingly late', why do so many of the Beckford fans think that the Sousa/Sven season is proof that Waghorn is rubbish? Beckford could score 20 league goals next season and people will still find something to moan about. Just look at Yakubu all he did was score goals and even then that wasn't good enough for some people. But Beckford didn't score goals FFS. You can hardly compare him last season to Yakubu's spell with us.
Guest Col city fan Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 Beckford could score 20 league goals next season and people will still find something to moan about. Just look at Yakubu all he did was score goals and even then that wasn't good enough for some people. Very very simple statement to make.. try to make an argument to explain why?...... If he didn't get anywhere near 20 league goals this season, why should he automatically do so next? Because he did so for Leeds in League 1? I'm not knocking you mate and you could be right, but why? Explain your comment...
Guest Col city fan Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 According to those stats Beckford only came on off the bench 6 times not that often is it. And as for your point about Pearson bringing him on 'infuriatingly late', why do so many of the Beckford fans think that the Sousa/Sven season is proof that Waghorn is rubbish? But Beckford didn't score goals FFS. You can hardly compare him last season to Yakubu's spell with us. I was just going to say, in my memory, Beckford started most games last season didnt he? Both under Sven and Pearson? A more salient 'stat' IMO is the assists for goals that were made between Beckford and Nugent... they literally made hardly any goals for each other all season. That is not a 'strike partnership' and was, for me anyway, a major reason why we didn't make the play offs. Any goals we scored came from assists from other players, with Wellens being the main source of assists!! Strikers on the same wavelength will make goals for each other, like Lambert did with Sharp and Roberts did with LeFondre. Again, just go back and look at how many goals Heskey made for Claridge, or even Stevie Howard made for Fryatt. This understanding between the two forward players and laying on goals for each other is crucial to any success. Take this to its limit..... many people point out that Beckford scored so many goals for Leeds because of his strike partnership with Becchio. Could it possibly be then that NUGENT was the problem for Beckford last season? Maybe a more suitable strike partner to play up front with Beckford might result in getting the best out of Beckford? I dunno, just a suggestion? I doubt Nige will drop Nuge though...
sphericalfox Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 According to those stats Beckford only came on off the bench 6 times not that often is it. And as for your point about Pearson bringing him on 'infuriatingly late', why do so many of the Beckford fans think that the Sousa/Sven season is proof that Waghorn is rubbish? But Beckford didn't score goals FFS. You can hardly compare him last season to Yakubu's spell with us. Waghorn may well prove to useful this coming season. We are opting, I believe, to run our Reserves in a proper Reserve league this coming season. Something in my view will considerably help our players be more fit and 1st team ready, given the opportunity to do so. It'll also put pressure on those in the 1st team to improve performances. There's no certainty with anything. Some players who have had outstanding previous seasons have had terrible or mediocre seasons with us. With better options on the bench, and a proper reserve team we should see a considerable improvement. Not given, but on paper I think this should put us in good stead for the upcoming season ahead.
Babylon Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 As for missed chances there are plenty of reasons for them and not many of them are down to a lack of skills and I'm fairly sure Nugent missed a fair number as well but perhaps these weren't so noticeable because he was seen in a positive light from the off so his 'mistakes' where 'accepted' Nugent did miss some sitters, but people aren't on here telling us that he's a wonderful finisher and that it's down to him no having chances that he scored not many games. With Beckford people are making him out to be nothing more than a finisher.
davieG Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 Nugent did miss some sitters, but people aren't on here telling us that he's a wonderful finisher and that it's down to him no having chances that he scored not many games. With Beckford people are making him out to be nothing more than a finisher. Isn't that because Beckford is the one getting slatted and wished gone?
Babylon Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 Thats where we disagree Babs.... with your comments about his 'conference-like' first touch and 'chances missed'... why do you then go on to say you'd be willing to take the risk of another season of this. You usually 'nail your colours to the mast', which I respect, but not in this case... why not? Because I think (as DG just pointed out below) that with a change of style / other players coming in could have a positive effect on him. I've seen flashes from him that have been positive. Granted they have been outweighed by negative so far, but the Boro game sticks in my mind which was one of the best individual performances I have seen from any city player for a long time. The guy was unplayable and could have had 5 goals.
Babylon Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 Isn't that because Beckford is the one getting slatted and wished gone? Probably, but I'd say it's also down to many people can't see his faults, the "it's the service", "he's just a finisher" are poor excuses when Nugent has scored from the same service and when he's missed many chances.
Guest Col city fan Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 Because I think (as DG just pointed out below) that with a change of style / other players coming in could have a positive effect on him. I've seen flashes from him that have been positive. Granted they have been outweighed by negative so far, but the Boro game sticks in my mind which was one of the best individual performances I have seen from any city player for a long time. The guy was unplayable and could have had 5 goals. Fair enough...and I agree with you about the Borough game, but would you risk another season with him as one of our main strikers, or get someone else in? I personally think this is gonna be crucial to any success we have next season. From what i've seen, I'd sell and cut the losses. For all of the reasons I've stated above. Any 'twitter links' that come about, I'm hoping are for another striker I have more faith in. But, hey, I've been wrong before, I could be wrong again.
Lambert09 Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 Does anybody know how many assists he had? I wouldnt be surprised if he had the most in our team haha I know he went through a spell of setting Nugent up every week. But again the haters will ignore that contribution and just look at the fact he wasnt scoring every 5 minutes. On their day Nuge and Beckford are the best strike force in the division and every other team would kill to have them, but our fans wont be happy till we replace him with a Hume (no offence to him, great servant)
Happy Fox Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 Does anybody know how many assists he had? I wouldnt be surprised if he had the most in our team haha I know he went through a spell of setting Nugent up every week. But again the haters will ignore that contribution and just look at the fact he wasnt scoring every 5 minutes. On their day Nuge and Beckford are the best strike force in the division and every other team would kill to have them, but our fans wont be happy till we replace him with a Hume (no offence to him, great servant) We just need patience who in their right mind would get rid of a striker who has scored 15 goals in his first season it is laughable, fair enough if he doesn't deliver the goods next season than get rid, but I am confident he would score more goals if he had better service whether that be from the midfield, or from a target man to play alongside likewise with Nugent.
Mark_w Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 Does anybody know how many assists he had? I wouldnt be surprised if he had the most in our team haha I know he went through a spell of setting Nugent up every week. ...When was that?
Guest Col city fan Posted 8 June 2012 Posted 8 June 2012 Does anybody know how many assists he had? I wouldnt be surprised if he had the most in our team haha I know he went through a spell of setting Nugent up every week. But again the haters will ignore that contribution and just look at the fact he wasnt scoring every 5 minutes. On their day Nuge and Beckford are the best strike force in the division and every other team would kill to have them, but our fans wont be happy till we replace him with a Hume (no offence to him, great servant) You're not reading. I said above that Wellens had the most assists in the team.. Read the stats. Beckford and Nuge hardly set each other for goals at all. Neither appear in the top 25 players for assists for the whole season. You are ignoring the facts in favour of you simply wanting to say that Beckford is better than what we all saw last season. Though very loyal to one of our players, it's a dangerously naive game to play...
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