English clubs not run in fans' interest - Borussia Dortmund chief executive

[purpleronnie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...otball/22312268

English clubs not run in fans' interest - Hans-Joachim Watzke

Borussia Dortmund chief executive Hans-Joachim Watzke says a "clash of cultures" exists between English and German clubs - with English clubs having "an owner mentality" and not being run in their fans' interest.

Speaking to BBC sports editor David Bond, Watzke says German clubs are "more democratic" with fans feeling more of a part of their club.

Another article on modern football in the UK compared to germany.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...otball/22314015

English football has never been more popular, more powerful or more wealthy.

In the space of just two decades, the Premier League has transformed the way the game is played, watched and run in this country.

Run-down grounds have been turned into shiny, all-seater stadiums with megastores and restaurants serving three-course meals and fine wines.

More women and children are going to games and, apart from Millwall's FA Cup semi-final at Wembley two weeks ago, crowd trouble inside stadiums is extremely rare.

When I started watching football, most grounds were clapped out old relics. All fenced-in terraces and stands with corrugated roofs.

I remember when things were very different. In the 1980s, when I started watching football, most grounds were clapped out old relics. All fenced-in terraces and stands with corrugated roofs. The atmosphere could often be sinister and forbidding.

The experience of watching a game in this country is now, happily, unrecognisable from those days. The Hillsborough disaster forced the game to change and fans now enjoy a much more comfortable and enjoyable experience.

Yet there is still a nagging sense that something has been lost. That, in the rush to cash in on the economic boom of the 1990s, clubs left their core audience behind.

Over the last couple of weeks, I have been working on a film for BBC News: The Editors programme on how the national game has changed.

I met parents and children at a junior football game in Bracknell. I got up at the crack of dawn to travel from Manchester to Wembley with 10 bus loads of Man City fans bound for their club's FA Cup semi-final with Chelsea. And I went to Germany's industrial heartland to see the head of Borussia Dortmund, one of the powerhouses of the resurgent Bundesliga.

Everyone I spoke to was full of admiration for what the Premier League and English football had achieved in recent times. But all said they had concerns - whether it was over ticket prices, players failing in their role as role models or owners exploiting supporters.

Hans Joachim Watzke, the chief executive of Dortmund, says clubs like his ensure fans feel a part of the club by involving them as members. Thanks to the 50 plus one rule, no one businessman or company can take control of German clubs. He believes the English ownership model results in fans being treated as clients and has killed the romance of the game.

Clubs like Borussia Dortmund ensure fans feel a part of the club by involving them as members. Thanks to the 50 plus one rule, no one businessman or company can take control of German clubs

Other people I spoke to during my filming for the programme talked of a disconnect between the very top of the game and the grassroots.

As players have got richer and richer so there is a perception, it seems, that they are out of touch with the people who help pay their wages.

As the playing talent has got richer - earning on average £1m a year in the Premier League - so ticket prices have gone up again and again to help pay the bills for such talent.

Even as television has poured unprecedented amounts of money into the game - the next round of three-year TV deals could break through the £5bn barrier for the first time - ticket prices have continued to rise. In fact, since the start of the Premier League in 1992, tickets have gone up several times the rate of inflation.

This has led to a shift in the demographics of football's supporter base with many fans from the game's traditional working class heartland now priced out. With so many live games on TV, lots of supporters choose to watch in the pub or at home instead of paying for a season ticket.

The Premier League argues that if ticket pricing was such an issue then crowds would have fallen. Instead, it points out the opposite is true with attendances rising by 60% since 1992. Grounds in the old First Division were only 70% full at the time of the Premier League breakaway. Now the number is almost 95%.

The League says that its member clubs "price according to demand", an unfettered free market approach that ensures they can maximise revenue and profits which in turn can be spent on improving facilities and on developing and buying new talent. They also insist that cheaper or subsidised tickets would only lead to an explosion in touting which would rob the clubs of valuable income and leave genuine fans paying even more money.

Have the demographics of football's supporter base changed? Do expensive tickets encourage people to stay at home and watch games on the television?

But by allowing the market alone to decide the cost of watching football, there is undoubtedly a risk that clubs will alienate their traditional fanbase and a younger generation of supporters will be lost.

What's more, treating fans purely as consumers fails to take into account the special connection they have with their club. Or the fact that a supporter of one club can't simply walk down the road and follow another team if they aren't happy with the prices or the team on offer.

This is where treating football as any other product falls down. There is something different about being a fan of a club. It comes with an emotional attachment that is quite simply different to going to watch a concert or a film.

These arguments are well rehearsed and it is, of course, a giant leap to blame all of English football's problems on the business model which drives the game. Economics cannot be held responsible for players who bite their opponents, for example.

But the media money has brought with it intense levels of scrutiny for all those involved in the sport. Set against that level of attention and expectation, is it any wonder so many come up short?

The smallest of incidents can be horribly distorted - a side effect of being the most popular sport in the age of social media and 24-hour news.

Yet, for all its popularity, there is a sense that football has lost touch. It was a sentiment best summed up by a judge, Justice Leonard, at the end of the Harry Redknapp tax evasion trial last year.

"Football," he said, "is a sport which has become so commercial it may be thought by some to have rather lost its way."

English football's journey from the dark old days of the 70s and 80s has unquestionably brought great progress. But not all the changes have been for the better.

some of the comments are to me embarrassing and its because of those fans who hold those views that I no longer attend matches.

Times have changed, fans in the UK want different things to the rest of the world.

[Gold Coast Fox]

I agree with him.

[Fox92]

I do agree with him.

I am one who believes, like many, the Premier League ruined English football. I was born the year it was formed, but I look back at things before that and see, for example, Brian Clough win promotion to the first division (now Premier League) and then he won the title. That won't be achieved again. There's too much money involved, football clubs have always been organisations (they work together to achieve a purpose) but it's more business-like these days. The Premier League isn't the greatest league in the World.

Fans are put second, and that's a massive shame, because without fans their wouldn't be a football club. Ticket prices do need to be reduced, regardless. I read that you can buy a season ticket at Bayern Munich for £70! And they are one of the biggest clubs in the World, challenging for their league title and the European Cup!

[Landsend Fox]

Fans are only there to give the ground 'Atmosphere' on a match day and part pay the players overpriced wages? These clubs are Businesses 'Period'. The only interest the club has is to make profit, Manchester United are a clear example of that.

[Manwell Pablo]

I do agree with him.

I am one who believes, like many, the Premier League ruined English football. I was born the year it was formed, but I look back at things before that and see, for example, Brian Clough win promotion to the first division (now Premier League) and then he won the title. That won't be achieved again. There's too much money involved, football clubs have always been organisations (they work together to achieve a purpose) but it's more business-like these days. The Premier League isn't the greatest league in the World.

Fans are put second, and that's a massive shame, because without fans their wouldn't be a football club. Ticket prices do need to be reduced, regardless. I read that you can buy a season ticket at Bayern Munich for £70! And they are one of the biggest clubs in the World, challenging for their league title and the European Cup!

I have to say Bayern and Dortmunds exploits in Europe has impressed me, I have often thought Ze Germans suffered in Europe due to their stances on how clubs are run and were getting left behind by the likes of us all be it as the expense of cheaper tickets and good atmospheres. But Bayern got to the final last year, and we could well be looking at all German final this year. Shows it possible to do right by your fans and still be succesful.

[purpleronnie]

TBH I couldn't care less about how english clubs did in europe if they were ran the right way. I'd be much happier to have a connection to the club and players that german clubs (not just german BTW) do, cheaper tickets, sanding areas and the ability to have a pint in the stands.

When I first started to follow city the result was almost unimportant, which is something most modern day fans can't comprehend.

[C-man]

Fans are put second, and that's a massive shame, because without fans their wouldn't be a football club. Ticket prices do need to be reduced, regardless. I read that you can buy a season ticket at Bayern Munich for £70! And they are one of the biggest clubs in the World, challenging for their league title and the European Cup!

This is one of my favourite myths about German football.

People often say you can get a season ticket at Bayern for X amount (€96 is the cheapest, I believe) and Dortmund for Y (€169 on the Südtribüne) but the reality is you'll be waiting until you're dead to get one, particularly in Munich. Seriously, at those prices who is ever going to give up their ST? Even when people move away or die they keep their ST in the family!

And because a certain amount of tickets are available at those low prices, the rest of the stadium takes a hit.

One great thing that did come out of the weekend was that Dortmund set a fixed price for away fans next season so all (except Schalke and Bayern for 'security' reasons) will pay the same price. The reason behind it? The hope that other clubs would reciprocate by lowering their prices for Dortmund fans. Aki Watze said it was a disgrace that Dortmund fans had to pay €60 in Stuttgart but only €23 in Fürth.

Would love to see us do the same....

[Trav Le Bleu]

He's not wrong.

[purpleronnie]

This is one of my favourite myths about German football.

People often say you can get a season ticket at Bayern for X amount (€96 is the cheapest, I believe) and Dortmund for Y (€169 on the Südtribüne) but the reality is you'll be waiting until you're dead to get one, particularly in Munich. Seriously, at those prices who is ever going to give up their ST? Even when people move away or die they keep their ST in the family!

Its not really a myth then is it?

So are you saying prices should be higher so there can be a turnover of fans?

[SystonFox]

it isn't a myth in the sense that they do exist but in terms of anyone ever wanting to buy one at that price you can think again as C-man stated.

[21st Century Fox]

This is one of my favourite myths about German football.

People often say you can get a season ticket at Bayern for X amount (€96 is the cheapest, I believe) and Dortmund for Y (€169 on the Südtribüne) but the reality is you'll be waiting until you're dead to get one, particularly in Munich. Seriously, at those prices who is ever going to give up their ST? Even when people move away or die they keep their ST in the family!

And because a certain amount of tickets are available at those low prices, the rest of the stadium takes a hit.

One great thing that did come out of the weekend was that Dortmund set a fixed price for away fans next season so all (except Schalke and Bayern for 'security' reasons) will pay the same price. The reason behind it? The hope that other clubs would reciprocate by lowering their prices for Dortmund fans. Aki Watze said it was a disgrace that Dortmund fans had to pay €60 in Stuttgart but only €23 in Fürth.

Would love to see us do the same....

Also aren't the dirt cheap season tickets at Bayern the ones that are subsidised by T Mobile where you have to wear a stupid white outfit so you spell out the T Mobile logo in the stand.

[Finnegan]

!!! That's amazing.

[Floating Fox]

No, I think they are corporate tickets for T-mobile execs..but still amazing. Surprised no-one's spotted that before!

[Trav Le Bleu]

If I was a Bayern fan I'd get fans in the seats to ther

Also aren't the dirt cheap season tickets at Bayern the ones that are subsidised by T Mobile where you have to wear a stupid white outfit so you spell out the T Mobile logo in the stand.

If I were a Bayern fan I'd organise it so that fans to the left of the T all wore white tops to spell "its".

(Their left, our right... but not too far right - this is Germany we're talking about.)

[21st Century Fox]

No, I think they are corporate tickets for T-mobile execs..but still amazing. Surprised no-one's spotted that before!

I thought they were going to be corporate tickets for T Mobile employees but a friend of mine from Munich said they were regular season ticket holders who get their tickets subsidised.

[Pride_Of_The_Midlands]

Ticket prices will only increase due to the introduction of Financial 'Fair' Play.

[KFS]

Well if he's going to be like that, it was our game in the first place, pal!

No, he is right. I can't see it changing either.

[LcFc_Smiv]

Think this relates to us as well, as much as I appreciate our owners we lose a little more of our history and identity as time goes on.

[C-man]

Its not really a myth then is it?

So are you saying prices should be higher so there can be a turnover of fans?

What I mean is I constantly read that 'tickets are available at Dortmund/Bayern for €12' but they aren't really available are they?

I'm not saying tickets should be more expensive - I'm saying there should be a quota of cheap tickets that aren't season tickets. Make them available for members or something.

For example, when Bayern took out seats and replaced them with standing places (increasing the capacity by 2,000) they could have made those areas non-STH, but they didn't.

[Dan]

Couldn't agree more. I like seeing the German clubs do well because I think if we use them as a benchmark, we'll see a massive improvement in English football.

It's a total clash of cultures and as dirty as I feel I'm sort of glad they're putting our top sides to shame.

TBH I couldn't care less about how english clubs did in europe if they were ran the right way. I'd be much happier to have a connection to the club and players that german clubs (not just german BTW) do, cheaper tickets, sanding areas and the ability to have a pint in the stands.

When I first started to follow city the result was almost unimportant, which is something most modern day fans can't comprehend.

Excellently phrased something I strongly believe in. +1

[Vacamion]

... but not too far right - this is Germany we're talking about.)

+1

[ealingfox]

The ticket prices thing is a bit of an illusion, the figures get banded about so it seems any ticket for any match is dirt cheap, but that's not really the case. Only members with STs can stand and enjoy the low prices, for the casual fan or neutral its only marginally cheaper. Seats at Dortmund are generally the same price as Man City.

[Guest Bilo]

The ticket prices thing is a bit of an illusion, the figures get banded about so it seems any ticket for any match is dirt cheap, but that's not really the case. Only members with STs can stand and enjoy the low prices, for the casual fan or neutral its only marginally cheaper. Seats at Dortmund are generally the same price as Man City.

That's the case with the big clubs certainly, but you're talking about massive clubs here. Tickets are limited because these clubs have fanbases matched only by Manchester United, Real Madrid and Barcelona.

Go further down the league or into Bundesliga 2 and you can find standing tickets for €15 on the day or a couple of weeks before without too many problems.

[Mike the Metal Ed]

Bilo just said what I was about to say. Manchester United are expensive, but try getting a match day or season ticket on the Stretford End, or following them away from home. If English football was run more like German football we'd have little more trouble getting tickets for City than we would in any normal situation.

[MooseBreath]

As much as this is obviously another case of the Germans getting a couple of good results and promptly taking the opportunity to tell everyone how much better they are than everyone else in spite of the fact that no German team has won the European Cup for 12 years and over the last 30 years they have produced far, far fewer European Cup winners than England, Spain or Italy and regardless of the fact that the Bundesliga is not a great deal less elitist in terms of the top-3 than England is and ignoring the fact that all of the talk about their ultra-cheap season tickets is largely a load of bollocks etc etc...... I do like the fact that they have terraces.