DANGEROUS TIGER Posted 2 June 2013 Share Posted 2 June 2013 Watford had the foresight to use this method, and it worked. All credit to them for that, but I don't like the idea of this continuing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 2 June 2013 Share Posted 2 June 2013 But isn't that risk there anyway? If we ever had a real talent at Leicester they'd get taken away from us, yes we'd benefit from the money I suppose and can you really get attached to any players nowadays? Players tend to move on within a space of 3 years or less nowadays anyway. Yes I agree if someone got taken away from us we'd benefit from money and if we sign a player permenent we're likely to have them longer than 1 year but at the same time loaning players you don't lose money as you would buying them, you don't necceserilly play as much on there contracts, and if they turn out to be rubbish (Like a few players we've signed over the years) they are easier to get rid off. There are positives and negatives towards both. But if you believe signing players on permenent mean they won't be taken away from us or you can have more attachment to them, I think you are very much mistaken, especially if they are really that good. Vydra goes to Watford, has one blinding season, Udinese can and likely would say "alright, thanks, we're taking him for our Serie A push now." We buy Knockaert, he tears the league apart, we've some control over whether or not he departs and how much we get back in compensation. If Vydra gets taken back to Udinese what do Watford get? The next reserve in line, likely no way near as good and no financial compensation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted 2 June 2013 Share Posted 2 June 2013 Vydra goes to Watford, has one blinding season, Udinese can and likely would say "alright, thanks, we're taking him for our Serie A push now." We buy Knockaert, he tears the league apart, we've some control over whether or not he departs and how much we get back in compensation. If Vydra gets taken back to Udinese what do Watford get? The next reserve in line, likely no way near as good and no financial compensation. Agreed, on the other hand we buy Beckford for £2.5m (Plus add ons, which we are not sure if we have had to pay or not), he plays 43 games for us in 2/3 years for us, we realise he is absolutely useless, loan him out and are now struggling to sell him, probably making a loss on him. Swings and roundabouts. And lets be honest Beckford isn't the first and won't be the last player this has happened with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 2 June 2013 Share Posted 2 June 2013 Agreed, on the other hand we buy Beckford for £2.5m (Plus add ons, which we are not sure if we have had to pay or not), he plays 43 games for us in 2/3 years for us, we realise he is absolutely useless, loan him out and are now struggling to sell him, probably making a loss on him. Swings and roundabouts. And lets be honest Beckford isn't the first and won't be the last player this has happened with. And this is exactly our fault for overspending on a player bought in a panic and giving him wages we couldn't afford. Like I said, I'm not condoning our policy of throwing money we don't have at a situation, I just don't think the Pozzo solution is the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 2 June 2013 Share Posted 2 June 2013 Its all well and good if Watford managed to get promoted, but then what? Any good players they had would be farmed to Udinese. I'd guess that it would be more financially beneficial to the owners for Watford to stay in the PL than for Udinese to do well in serie A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l444ry Posted 2 June 2013 Share Posted 2 June 2013 Haha. Ian Holloway is going to be happy. It seems that ADL has Crystal Palace at the top of his wish list for Napoli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Posted 2 June 2013 Share Posted 2 June 2013 The problem is growing it would seem. Big foreign clubs are coming over and literally picking up training grounds for their players. Send a few youngsters over here to kick a ball about for a bit and then ship 'em back to Italy. Seriously harmful to the competition and the spirit of the game. Never has it been more necessary for the people at the top to have a serious look at the rules. I accept they've made mistakes in the past but now is the time to act, I'll not forgive them if they fail to prevent this from happening again. This is my worry too, but the easy way of stopping it would be to block all transfers between co-owned clubs. On the basis of what though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charl91 Posted 2 June 2013 Share Posted 2 June 2013 Wouldn't like it tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry - LCFC Posted 2 June 2013 Share Posted 2 June 2013 On the basis of what though? It's anti-competitive behaviour. Watford don't have to 'compete' with others for players from Udinese/Granada by bidding for them, they're just given to them. There are actually laws (British government laws not footballing laws) against this and the Competition Commission is there to prevent behaviour by firms that harms business competition. I don't think it's unreasonable to block transfers between co-owned clubs on the basis that there is distortion to the competition. Or alternatively perhaps the CC could investigate them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 2 June 2013 Share Posted 2 June 2013 I just have to question would people have these same views/arguments if Leicester had done it? I doubt it very much, be honest. I wasn't happy when Sven was abusing the loans, and would be even less so if we did what Watford have done, I'm surprised it has taken so long for them to look into this after we had a squad with 7 or 8 loanees in it under Sven, and reaching over double figures over the season. Vitor, Naughton, Cunningham, Davies, Bednar, Kirkland, PVA, Bruma, Yak, Kamara, Mee That is a whole team. And I might have forgotten a few. Football is about building a team you can be proud of not borrowing one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 2 June 2013 Share Posted 2 June 2013 It's anti-competitive behaviour. Watford don't have to 'compete' with others for players from Udinese/Granada by bidding for them, they're just given to them. There are actually laws (British government laws not footballing laws) against this and the Competition Commission is there to prevent behaviour by firms that harms business competition. I don't think it's unreasonable to block transfers between co-owned clubs on the basis that there is distortion to the competition. Or alternatively perhaps the CC could investigate them! So far I don't think anyone has actually been transferred between the clubs yet, but I'm sure any dealings will be looked at especially with Watford's transfers being checked by the FA after previous dodgy dealings. The difference is that someone like Vydra is going to become a wanted man, to loan him to Watford he doesn't really have a choice, go or sit in the reserves, if they try to sell him to Watford then he, or his agent, aren't going to be happy if it is a cut price deal, or another club is willing to offer much more than Watford. I think there might be some more fuss kicked up as some of these transfers start getting pushed through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan LCFC Posted 2 June 2013 Share Posted 2 June 2013 Hope it doesn't happen. Napoli are probably my favourite Italian side as well and I don't want them tarnishing our league further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry - LCFC Posted 3 June 2013 Share Posted 3 June 2013 So far I don't think anyone has actually been transferred between the clubs yet, but I'm sure any dealings will be looked at especially with Watford's transfers being checked by the FA after previous dodgy dealings. The difference is that someone like Vydra is going to become a wanted man, to loan him to Watford he doesn't really have a choice, go or sit in the reserves, if they try to sell him to Watford then he, or his agent, aren't going to be happy if it is a cut price deal, or another club is willing to offer much more than Watford. I think there might be some more fuss kicked up as some of these transfers start getting pushed through. There has been one, Forestieri has been transferred to Watford. That wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the Pozzo's co-ownership of clubs so there's already some evidence of distortion of the competition. I'm a little worried that nothing was made of this. I don't know if anyone looked into it but it was allowed to happen. I really hope something is done about this because there seems to be a bit of a trend setting in with the Pozzos and now Lazio. Big clubs need to find new ways to compete at the top level so buying a feeder club makes sense. Bad news IMO, very bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan LCFC Posted 3 June 2013 Share Posted 3 June 2013 It's ok stopping these loans. But who's to say that they won't get told "we need you to play here next season, but you can't be loaned so you'll go there as a transfer on a one year contract and we'll see what happens after that". Because they're owned by the same group, the transfer fee will be minimal too. Not saying this will happen, just a possible scenario. If the FL were to change the rules on loans in relation to Watford this season then it would just show how short-sighted they really are. There needs to be a total ban on any linked clubs in this particular way. If the Pozzo's want 6/7 of their 'pool' of players to go to Watford, they'll move them there on proper contracts for a year rather than a loan. My idea personally, and I think that this wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing anyway, is to make a cap on the number of players you can buy from one club a season. I'd limit it to two per club. So Watford could still get four players (two Udinese, two Granada) but it would stop anything as shambolic as this happening. A very reactive idea admittedly but I don't really see what harm it does and it prevents the clubs in question from taking the piss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan LCFC Posted 3 June 2013 Share Posted 3 June 2013 I can't see that Watford are doing anything less ethical than us at Leicester who, in trying to buy our way out of this division, have racked up mountains of debt. To the best of my knowledge, Watford aren't in anywhere near the financial shit we are in. And by the way, ADL is a massive supporter of FFP! What Leicester did was ridiculous but Watford's is completely unfair. Watford literally don't have to spend a penny and can have a team handed to them that is far too good for this league on a free. How is that fair in any way? It might be better financially than us but it's a complete and utter farce and shouldn't be allowed. I just have to question would people have these same views/arguments if Leicester had done it? I doubt it very much, be honest. I'd have exactly the same view and I don't like what's happened at Leicester. If I had my own way I'd ban foreign ownership full stop but it's far too late to do that now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 3 June 2013 Share Posted 3 June 2013 There has been one, Forestieri has been transferred to Watford. That wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the Pozzo's co-ownership of clubs so there's already some evidence of distortion of the competition. I'm a little worried that nothing was made of this. I don't know if anyone looked into it but it was allowed to happen. I really hope something is done about this because there seems to be a bit of a trend setting in with the Pozzos and now Lazio. Big clubs need to find new ways to compete at the top level so buying a feeder club makes sense. Bad news IMO, very bad. I'm guessing forestieri was happy with the arrangement. I think it will really kick off when one of the players, possibly Vydra, feels he is being forced to go to Watford when he could get a better deal somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry - LCFC Posted 3 June 2013 Share Posted 3 June 2013 I like the idea of the cap, I personally would set it at zero. I'm guessing forestieri was happy with the arrangement. I think it will really kick off when one of the players, possibly Vydra, feels he is being forced to go to Watford when he could get a better deal somewhere else. Yes that's correct, I read the article on Watford's website and he seemed genuinely chuffed to be joining the club. That still doesn't make it fair though, what price would he have been sold for had another club wanted to acquire him? More than what Watford had to pay I imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indierich06 Posted 3 June 2013 Share Posted 3 June 2013 It's ok stopping these loans. But who's to say that they won't get told "we need you to play here next season, but you can't be loaned so you'll go there as a transfer on a one year contract and we'll see what happens after that". Because they're owned by the same group, the transfer fee will be minimal too. Not saying this will happen, just a possible scenario. Doubt that there would be many players up for that. Forgo your contract at a good club for a one year contract in the Championship where you 'see how it goes'? If I were a player, I'd rather find another club than be forced in to a move by my employers. A season long loan is one thing, a permanent transfer is completely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Posted 3 June 2013 Share Posted 3 June 2013 Doubt that there would be many players up for that. Forgo your contract at a good club for a one year contract in the Championship where you 'see how it goes'? If I were a player, I'd rather find another club than be forced in to a move by my employers. A season long loan is one thing, a permanent transfer is completely different. I see your point. Not saying what I've said will happen, just a possibility of "beating the system". Wouldn't be surprised with anything in football these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indierich06 Posted 3 June 2013 Share Posted 3 June 2013 I see your point. Not saying what I've said will happen, just a possibility of "beating the system". Wouldn't be surprised with anything in football these days. True. I suppose you could get around it by saying 'we'll free transfer you to 'Club X' for 1 year, your contract will expire at 'Club X' on July 1 next year - here's a pre-contract agreement to sign you back to our club when your contract expires'. It'll make things a lot more complicated though, and I'm sure it would put a lot of players off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Posted 3 June 2013 Share Posted 3 June 2013 True. I suppose you could get around it by saying 'we'll free transfer you to 'Club X' for 1 year, your contract will expire at 'Club X' on July 1 next year - here's a pre-contract agreement to sign you back to our club when your contract expires'. It'll make things a lot more complicated though, and I'm sure it would put a lot of players off. There you go, that's just another scenario. But if there's a way around the laws that'll gain an advantage, then money talks and that's what incentive the players will be offered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriginalRobboFOX Posted 3 June 2013 Share Posted 3 June 2013 It's Palace they are looking at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali Campbell Posted 3 June 2013 Share Posted 3 June 2013 The problem is with the amount of money in the premier league compared to other leagues. These business men don't want to buy an over priced premier league club so they are now looking at championship clubs and funding them to get into the premier league. Foreign owned championship clubs was unheard of 3 or 4 years ago but next season; Leicester Watford Reading QPR Notts Forest Sheffield Wednesday Millwall Birmingham Blackpool Blackburn Leeds All willing to spend millions to get into the premier league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali Campbell Posted 3 June 2013 Share Posted 3 June 2013 Crystal palace owners won't sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loggy88 Posted 3 June 2013 Share Posted 3 June 2013 The rules will hopefully change because what Watford is unfair and actually morally wrong to have that much of an advantage over every other club in the league. luckily even with their advantage they couldn't go up. But the rule MUST be changed so it can't happen again. I would hate it if we ever did this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.