Everybody's doing the 3-5-2

[davieG]

Well a lot of them are......

 

 

 

A number of Premier League teams look set to embrace the 3-5-2 once again after its success at the World Cup After a period of little variety in Premier League formations, it seems as many as half of the division could be willing to try switching to three at the back this season. Adam Bate looks at the reasons why...

 

The World Cup has a long tradition of sparking innovation. The Miracle of Berne may have prevented Hungary lifting the trophy in 1954 but the Magnificent Magyars and their 3-2-3-2 discovered the way to outfox the WM formation.

By 1958, thanks to Bela Guttmann’s influence in South America, it had morphed into the 4-2-4 that saw Brazil dominate the next two World Cups only for Sir Alf Ramsey to counter it with his Wingless Wonders of 1966. The modern 4-4-2 was born.

Even in 1986 it was Argentina’s 3-5-2, designed to get the best from Diego Maradona, that precipitated the return of the sweeper four years later when defences dominated Italia ’90.

However, it seemed that globalisation had put paid to the World Cup as an instigator of tactical change. With the star players concentrated within the confines of the Champions League, where the best do battle on a regular basis, the surprises are less dramatic in the modern game.

And yet, there remains nothing like a World Cup to focus the mind. In this respect, Louis van Gaal’s shift to 3-5-2 with the Netherlands seemed particularly symbolic.

The man who had carried on the Dutch tradition of 4-3-3 at Barcelona and hence played his part in creating modern European football as we know it, masterminded the destruction of defending champions Spain with a 3-5-2 counter-attacking approach.

Van Gaal wasn’t alone. Costa Rica were arguably the tournament’s greatest overachievers with their version of the formation causing problems for everyone who encountered them en route to the quarter-finals.

With the new football season almost upon us, it seems the Premier League’s managers have been taking note.

Liverpool, of course, can claim to be ahead of the curve having experimented with the formation last season. “It can be a system that works for us,” said Brendan Rodgers. “But what doesn't change is our idea of the game, how we want to pass, how we want to be aggressive in our attack.

“It gives us numbers going forward, which is important. It's another system that the players have shown we can play. With more play and more development, it's one that we can flip to quite easily.

“It's wherever you can get superiority in the game. If I look at Daniel (Sturridge) and Luis Suarez, they are both nine-and-a-halves. They are not straight up and down strikers, they like to move and get in between.

“The game’s evolving all the time. As a coach you are always looking at your players. The style never changes. I've always asked teams to control and dominate, be aggressive in your defending, and press really aggressively and high up the pitch - but that can be in whatever system.”

Rodgers was motivated by a desire to keep Suarez and Sturridge - his two in-form strikers – on the pitch together, and that also seems to be the same starting principle with which Van Gaal is approaching his new job as Manchester United manager.

The Dutchman’s conundrum is how best to deploy Robin van Persie and Wayne Rooney in their best positions. A 4-4-2 formation? Maybe. But then Van Gaal must also accommodate the gifted attacking midfielders at the club such as Juan Mata.

“I can play 4-3-3 with three strikers on the bench, but I want to play with two strikers. We have four number 10s, so the selection is not balanced in my eyes. I have decided to play this system because of the quality of the players. But if we lose, I can change back to another system.”

There is an intriguing blend between philosophy and pragmatism at work here. But whether it’s Rodgers talking of retaining his ethos or Van Gaal speaking of imbalance in his squad, the fundamental driving force is the need to find the best system for the players.

That’s what saw Steve Bruce utilise the system with Hull City last year. Having used three at the back in 41 of their 46 Championship games, Bruce dabbled with the formation in the Premier League depending upon whether the opponents played one or two up front.

However, the starting point for the idea was the fact that he had a number of players, most notably Ahmed Elmohamady, who were clearly suited to the system. “That's one of the reasons we played it last year,” Bruce told the Hull Daily Mail. “Certainly, it's Elmo's best position.

“He's played a bit at full-back. I think he's better coming from deep. It's a specialised position, which he enjoys more than anybody. Robbie Brady did very well there last year for us. It also allows me to play three in midfield and that's something I wanted to do.

“That system suits James Chester, it suits Alex (Bruce) and (Maynor) Figueroa. It suits a few of them and enables me to play three midfielders against the big teams. If you leave yourself open in the middle of the pitch, that leaves you vulnerable.”

Situation is shifting

Of course, while Bruce used the 3-5-2 formation to his advantage by presenting a fresh problem to opponents accustomed to 4-2-3-1, the irony is that the situation is starting to shift. As more teams make the switch, the more reason there is for others to copy the formation.

After all, the principle reason why the back-three went out of fashion was because single striker systems had become increasingly popular and there was no tactical advantage in having two spare central defenders.

As more and more teams find ways of getting two strikers on the pitch – whether in a back three or courtesy of Liverpool’s much-vaunted diamond formation, the 3-5-2 once again becomes a viable counter-tactic. Consequently, it’s one that many managers like the idea of having in their armoury.

“It is an option that I want to have without a doubt,” West Brom head coach Alan Irvine told the Express and Star this week after trying out the system during pre-season.

““How many times I’ll do it I don’t know yet, but it’s certainly an option that I want and I think if we can get in all the players that we want, then it will be an option we will have.

“We’ve seen the World Cup and the Premier League last season, where a number of teams have used three at the back on different occasions, and I think it’s important to be able to have the flexibility to do it.”

This desire for flexibility has long been a motivation behind Paul Lambert’s tinkering. “The beauty of it is they can adapt,” he told the Birmingham Mail last season. “The lads know it (3-5-2). They played it last year, so they know how to do it.

“The good thing is we can change to different ways of playing. They can adapt to whatever we ask them to do. It all depends on who we’re playing against.”

Variety

Newcastle manager Alan Pardew tried the system back in April in an ill-fated experiment away to Stoke City but he is another who is willing to give the formation another go with the stated aim of getting the best out of new signing Siem De Jong. Again, it’s variety that Pardew is after.

“When you are chasing games you need to be able to change your system if you're up against a brick wall. We wanted to look at the three centre-backs. It's all experience and we have learnt a little bit about things that will and won't work for us.”

With Harry Redknapp also pondering three at the back at Queens Park Rangers, Everton boss Roberto Martinez not being averse to the system and Southampton coach Ronald Koeman regarded as something of a pioneer of the 3-5-2 in Holland, teams are queuing up to give it a go.

Will it work? With players so familiar with a back-four there may be teething problems. But from a period just a few years ago when 4-2-3-1 seemed ubiquitous, in the wake of a World Cup eye opener this summer, it appears we are in for a tactically interesting Premier League season.

 

 

Have we got the players to do this properly - What would be our best 3-5-2 formation team?

[Fox92]

No we haven't. That's why it didn't work last season.

[Munshi]

Nah

[Guest Sharpe's Fox]

We never made enough decent opportunities using it.

[Naylor118]

It would depend on the philosophy. A formation is all well and good, but if the formation and the philosophy are not suited, then it's not going to work. 

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

                 Kasper

 

          Moore Morgan Was

 

Albrighton James Danny King Mahrez

 

            Ulloa   Vardy

 

 

 

 

Can't see us using this system much, though.

[lgfualol]

Defence is too weak as it is, take a player away and we're ****ed.

[Webbo]

I've been think for a while that this might be a good idea. We could play Moore in the middle of a three to utilise his pace with Was and Wes either side to add experience. Schlupp and De Laet would make good wing backs. 

 

I don't see where Mahrez would fit in though and I can't see it happening.

[Poiseuille]

Yes we tried it last year and didn't work out too well, but that's what the article is saying, it'll be like as snowball effect this season as more and more teams play it. If we are to evolve as a team then we will have to keep up with modern day football.

I can see Pearson trying this again. Possibly the thinking behind signing Upson recently.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[davieG]

I don't think we have good enough left sided/footed CB and the two outside CB would need to be relatively pacey, Moore could probably manage it. Konchesky might have done 10 years ago.

 

Don't know about any of the U21s but they'd lack experience of any type.

 

It would be nice if the U21s were schooled in a number of systems as variety is going to be the name of the game, not that it hasn't always but it's been around some fairly strict formations.

[Ashley]

Watford played this in the play off season and to be honest with the players they had they should have hammered the division.

To be fair Steve Guppy the players you have picked in that team is a no well the wingers anyway...

For me this is what it should be.

Schmeichel

Moore Wasilewski Morgan

De Leat James Drinkwater Schlupp

Knockaert

Ulloa Vardy

Or Hammond instead of Knockaert but him playing the defensive role.

[veezeeblue]

Watford played this in the play off season and to be honest with the players they had they should have hammered the division.

To be fair Steve Guppy the players you have picked in that team is a no well the wingers anyway...

For me this is what it should be.

Schmeichel

Moore Wasilewski Morgan

De Leat James Drinkwater Schlupp

Knockaert

Ulloa Vardy

Or Hammond instead of Knockaert but him playing the defensive role.

 

 

yes De Leat needs to be in Midfield, I have said this on a number of threads, seems like a good idea to me even with 4 at the back so 4-3-3 or 3-5-2 he needs to step forward a line for 2014/15 ... anyone else have thoughts on this? 

[Zapp]

IF we used it

------- Kasper

-- Was Moore Wes

RDL ----------- Schlupp

--- Drinks James

------ Knocky

-----Vardy Ulloa

But we won't

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

Agreed, but I can't see us playing a 3-5-2, if we're going to then I think we're going to do it in a very attacking manner, and the 2 most recent teams suggested aren't 3-5-2, they're 3-4-1-2, which is a completely different kettle of fish.

[GingerrrFox]

Personally I am surprised that Nigel hasn't dabbled with the formation in this pre-season. We know he loves to play with 2 strikers and the reason he started experimenting early last season was so that we could have 3 in midfield and control possession and tempo, whilst retaining two strikers. The squad is slightly out of balance in that we have 4 strikers and it seems like the squad is still built to play with 2 up top e.g. 4-4-2. However if we come up against top sides like Arsenal, Manchester City/United, Liverpool etc we will be hammered. 

 

So the 4-2-3-1 has been experimented with for some games but similar to Van Gaal's dilemma at United we will be left with 3 strikers on the bench, not sure they will be happy sat on the bench regularly. Also if we get an injury to one of Albrighton/Knockaert/Mahrez we are left with 2 wingers which isn't ideal. Also due to the fact that we have no clear outstanding left back it's surprising Nigel hasn't tested the 3-5-2 again. 

 

The final problem I have with this 4-2-3-1 formation is that neither Vardy or Nugent can be played as the lone striker which takes away two players who were a massive component of our success last season. The fact that those two linked together so well and also worked very hard for the team is something that shouldn't be forgotten. So far in this pre season Vardy has yet to play in his best position as a striker and has instead been stuck out on the left wing which is essentially putting a square peg in a round hole. He was our best striker last season and so far he's been out on that left wing and looked uncomfortable and unhappy there. What are we going to do sacrifice one of Albrighton/Knockaert/Mahrez to play Vardy out of position or are we going to leave one of if not arguably our best player last season on the bench? 

 

3-5-2 is basically a 4-4-2 with a few subtle changes and if Nigel is intent on playing 4-4-2 against teams of a similar level, then it makes more sense to switch to the 3-5-2 against tougher opponents rather than a much more radical change in the 4-2-3-1.

 

I would be much more comfortable with a 3-5-2 of:

 

Kasper

 

Morgan

Wasyl

Moore

 

RDL/Albrighton

Drinkwater

James

Schlupp/Albrighton

 

Knockaert/Mahrez/GTF

 

Vardy

Nugent/Ulloa/Wood

 

rather than a 4-2-3-1 of:

 

Kasper

 

RDL

Moore/Wasyl

Morgan

Konchesky/Schlupp

 

Drinkwater

James

 

Albrighton/Knockaert

GTF

Mahrez

 

Ulloa/Wood

[ROB-THE-BLUE]

It would basically render Albrighton redundant and an unused Mahrez or Knocky. Can't see it happening myself.

[bluesbrothers]

Well listen y'all, here's something new,

A little thing called the 3-5-2

It's the fashion that everyone's tryin'

Now the 4-4-2 is dyin

Never mind the old two banks of four,

Without those wingbacks you'll struggle to score,

And with everyone else doing it too,

You're bound to find space to run into!
God help those without wing pace,

They might as well book their relegation place,

Because hard graft is over-rated,

Positions are being re-dedicated

So get ready for Vardy wasted out wide,

and Ulloa struggling to be supplied,

Sod sticking to what we know,

It worked for the Germans under Lowe, sooooooo...

So bottom line, don't join the fad,

After what we've built we'd be bloody mad!

[/rhyme]

[veezeeblue]

Why do people insist in say Vardy was our best striker ? Nuge was our best striker Vardy was our second best, both were brilliant and won us many games and the championship title. Just get your facts right.

 

Back to the thread, we have to play attacking and defending formations depends on the opposition.

3-5-2 could be both depends if we ant to load the midfield with more attacking or defensive players

 

personally imo 3 at the back is too risky we should keep it very tight at the back 4 always and vary the midfield

 

whether it´s 2-3 or 5 across

 

defensive : albrighton de laet drinky james hammond 

attacking : albrighton knocky drinky mahrez vardy

 

ulloa and nuge up front

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

Why do people insist in say Vardy was our best striker ? Nuge was our best striker Vardy was our second best, both were brilliant and won us many games and the championship title. Just get your facts right.

 

Back to the thread, we have to play attacking and defending formations depends on the opposition.

3-5-2 could be both depends if we ant to load the midfield with more attacking or defensive players

 

personally imo 3 at the back is too risky we should keep it very tight at the back 4 always and vary the midfield

 

whether it´s 2-3 or 5 across

 

defensive : albrighton de laet drinky james hammond 

attacking : albrighton knocky drinky mahrez vardy

 

ulloa and nuge up front

 

 

:nigel: :nigel:

[brockmyster]

IF we used it

------- Kasper

-- Was Moore Wes

RDL ----------- Schlupp

--- Drinks James

------ Knocky

-----Vardy Ulloa

But we won't

 

I'd say Nugent for Ulloa, he would give that extra bit of energy and be more able to drop deep to keep a somewhat 4 man midfield

[foxfanazer]

I love how Nuge was public enemy number 1 a few weeks ago and now after a good pre season he's suddenly the Messiah and Ulloa is gash

Fickle bunch aren't we

[leicester4life]

Don't get people saying you need pace at the back playing 3-5-2?

 

Last time we properly played 3-5-2 we had a back line including Elliot, Walsh and Taggart.

[ealingfox]

3 of the top 4 in England played with 4 at the back last season. Premature to say there's been any kind of general shift away from the back 4 status quo.

[brockmyster]

I love how Nuge was public enemy number 1 a few weeks ago and now after a good pre season he's suddenly the Messiah and Ulloa is gash

Fickle bunch aren't we

 

I'd argue Nuge had a good whole season last year.....

[Dan]

I didn't like it. I thought we looked weaker in literally every area. Defensively we weren't as good and going forward we were as flat as a pancake.

 

Sticking 5 in our midfield over 4 doesn't automatically make the midfield more effective, nor does it automatically weaken the defence.

 

If 4-4-2 is what will make us as strong as we can be, then play 4-4-2. It's absolute common sense. Don't play into the oppositions hands.

 

I didn't see many people complaining at Atletico Madrid and Colombia playing 4-4-2.