bovril Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 If Farage said "vote out and you'll never have to see my face again" I reckon I'd switch sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Railway Man Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 Errr I think the whole turkey debate is more about where the EU border is moved to than the NHS. Turkey seem quite adamant, that they are working towards a deal to join the EU in the not to distant future. Watching the Turkish politican on Newsnight he seemed aghast at what our government was now saying as it's totally different to what he had been told, what is for certain is Cameron is telling lies to someone, either the British or the Turkish people. edit: Literally as I'm writing this Yahoo reporting yalks set to open up again in next few days. https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/31896584/eu-turkey-to-open-new-membership-talks-sources/#page1 Brussels (AFP) - The EU will open new membership talks with Turkey as planned in a few days, EU diplomatic sources said Wednesday, just as Ankara's accession becomes a hot-button issue in Britain's vote on its future in the bloc. One source, who asked not to be named, told AFP that EU member states will meet June 30 to agree to open a new negotiating chapter with Turkey on finance and budget affairs. European Union leaders pledged in March to speed up Turkey's long-stalled membership talks as part of an accord on tackling the migration crisis, promising to open at least one new chapter by the end of June. The issue has become caught up in the campaign for Thursday's bitterly-fought Brexit referendum amid charges by the "Leave" camp that accession will allow millions of Turks into the country. British Prime Minister David Cameron insists Turkey will not join the 28-nation bloc for years, even though the government's official position is to support Ankara's membership. If Farage said "vote out and you'll never have to see my face again" I reckon I'd switch sides. Probably true as well, vote leave and he becomes pointless. Close remain and he shouldnt really fail to get elected in 2020. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adster Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 This whole referendum has again reminded me why I absolutely hate politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzy Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 This whole referendum has again reminded me why I absolutely hate politics. This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryfox Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 This whole referendum has again reminded me why I absolutely hate politics. Politics is ok .... its politicians that get up my nose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 Errr I think the whole turkey debate is more about where the EU border is moved to than the NHS. Turkey seem quite adamant, that they are working towards a deal to join the EU in the not to distant future. Firstly the Turkey migration point and NHS funding points were separate clauses within the same sentence summing up the key points made by 'project leave' let's call it since fear is already taken. Secondly despite what Turkish politicians are saying and despite what Railway Man's taken away from that article above, Turkey and the EU have been 'in talks' about accession for over a decade in which time they've achieved the square root of fuch all progress towards accomplishing that task because of issues with human rights first and foremost. Indeed the article RM linked confirms exactly that, again despite what he seems to have concluded from it. It's not happening any time soon and if it ever does look like happening (and if we vote to stay) it will be so far into the future that a new referendum wouldn't look like an attempt to disregard the one we're having tomorrow concerning the contemporary reality of EU membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozleicester Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 Pssst! Oz! Bad news, mate. The elite are leading BOTH sides. Brexit would just involve the capitalist/neo-liberal mindset being applied in a different, less restrained manner - and the working class being pissed on in a different way....probably much more piss. Are Gove, IDS, Boris & Farage really leading opponents of the capitalist/neo-liberal mindset, caring advocates for the working class and rebels from the street opposing the elite?!? Here's Paul Mason on why "Brexit is a fake revolt - working-class culture is being hijacked to help the elite" https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/20/brexit-fake-revolt-eu-working-class-culture-hijacked-help-elite Interesting read, thanks. the two major parties and the mainstream media are basically all running the same direction and my guess is that the remain side will actually win by a solid margin anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 Don't trust what politicians say about Turkey. You should never underestimate how fast the momentum in geo-political movements can change in times of crisis, and we are certainly in a crisis now with a mass influx of Middle Eastern and North African migration. What the commission wants it usually gets and now the last fringes of the old Soviet Union have been drafted in to the community Turkey and its inhabitants, indigenous or otherwise, will be the next clutch of cheap labour they set their eyes on. When General Franco died it only took 10 years for Spain to be accepted into the EU. It might be said that Turkey has a long way to go to being accepted but so did Spain and the brutishness of Erdogan has nothing on the barbarism of Franco, a man who had an iron grip on Spain by setting up 200 concentration camps to systematically wipe out his political opponents. Ten years from military dictatorship to member of the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobHawk Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 Turkey is a non issue - It may happen but its decades away at best! Why? Well, 1 fact nobody seems to mention is Cyprus - why would cyprus allow them to join the EU, when Turkey are still occupying Northern Cyprus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 Don't trust what politicians say about Turkey. You should never underestimate how fast the momentum in geo-political movements can change in times of crisis, and we are certainly in a crisis now with a mass influx of Middle Eastern and North African migration. What the commission wants it usually gets and now the last fringes of the old Soviet Union have been drafted in to the community Turkey and its inhabitants, indigenous or otherwise, will be the next clutch of cheap labour they set their eyes on. When General Franco died it only took 10 years for Spain to be accepted into the EU. It might be said that Turkey has a long way to go to being accepted but so did Spain and the brutishness of Erdogan has nothing on the barbarism of Franco, a man who had an iron grip on Spain by setting up 200 concentration camps to systematically wipe out his political opponents. Ten years from military dictatorship to member of the EU. 3 out of 15 former Soviet states have been 'drafted in'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 Turks are cool as fvck anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 I'm sorry im being confrontational Alf, I'm just annoyed as the left wing arguments are by far and away the best (even if I don't wholly support them), sound points we have available and nobody seems to be taking up on them. I feel like they are hiding in the shadows somewhere as the debate keeps getting dragged into migrant - race rows. It worries me that either those on the left don't see them, or won't acknowledge them. I think I'm going to disappear for a long weekend on Friday and just chill, whatever the result. I'be invested too much emotion in this. No apology required, Strokes. I didn't think you were being confrontational at all. You seem like a polite, friendly, thoughtful poster, even if we often disagree. There's nothing wrong with being confrontational, anyway, so long as we're not abusive. I'm sometimes confrontational myself. It's more important for us all to be honest, to justify our opinions and to try to answer challenges, I reckon. I absolutely share your frustration at the low profile of Left arguments in the debate - on BOTH sides, though, and I reckon overall that will help Leave by default - whole swathes of people voting Leave not because they've heard both arguments and made that decision, but because they're angry or worried about things in their lives, like low pay, job insecurity or immigration, and express that by voting Leave (blaming the EU, wrongly for the most part). I'm sure the media will be a vomit-inducing spectacle whoever wins: whether it's Nigel & Boris crowing or Dave & George smarming. This will only be the start of the rollercoaster ride, though, particularly if Leave win. Intrigue and conspiracy aplenty, political power struggles, fvck knows where it will all lead. I just hope that the atmosphere doesn't get too toxic....but I'm pretty sure that it will, whoever wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerrrFox Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 Turkey is a non issue - It may happen but its decades away at best! Why? Well, 1 fact nobody seems to mention is Cyprus - why would cyprus allow them to join the EU, when Turkey are still occupying Northern Cyprus! Why say Turkey is a non-issue? It's clearly an issue, at some point Turkey will join the EU. It's going to happen despite the many valid objections from various places to their membership. Why does it matter if it is 2 years or 20 years? It's still something many in this country do not want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 Interesting read, thanks. the two major parties and the mainstream media are basically all running the same direction and my guess is that the remain side will actually win by a solid margin anyway. Couldn't disagree more, Oz! The Tories are split down the middle & leading BOTH campaigns. Labour are officially pro-Remain, but slightly split & deliberately keeping a low profile. The broadcast media are pretty neutral, the press mainly, but not entirely pro-Leave. ...And my guess is that Remain WON'T win by a solid margin. Too close to call, will probably be a very close - and subsequently disputed - result. I reckon Leave might edge it unless there's a very high turnout....in which case Remain is slight favourite but all bets are off as millions of people will be voting without a clue what they're doing (not their fault, in the main - the campaign, on the biggest issue of our time, has been shockingly manipulative and dishonest). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliall Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 Only launched this morning it’s already done 3000 shares on Twitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trav Le Bleu Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 Just a thought re: the Euros... If we stay in Europe, can we then claim to have won the Euros, regardless of who lifts the cup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 Only launched this morning it’s already done [/size]3000 shares on Twitter Turdless gardens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 Firstly the Turkey migration point and NHS funding points were separate clauses within the same sentence summing up the key points made by 'project leave' let's call it since fear is already taken. Secondly despite what Turkish politicians are saying and despite what Railway Man's taken away from that article above, Turkey and the EU have been 'in talks' about accession for over a decade in which time they've achieved the square root of fuch all progress towards accomplishing that task because of issues with human rights first and foremost. Indeed the article RM linked confirms exactly that, again despite what he seems to have concluded from it. It's not happening any time soon and if it ever does look like happening (and if we vote to stay) it will be so far into the future that a new referendum wouldn't look like an attempt to disregard the one we're having tomorrow concerning the contemporary reality of EU membership. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/leaked-uk-plan-to-open-doors-for-1m-turks-n085h225w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 I'd like to add quickly if I may, are a lot of employers unintentionally discriminating against our own by asking for basic disclosures? I mean I've done some very low skilled jobs within the past six years and have always had to provide one of these documents from disclosure Scotland. Are the same rigorous checks put in place for our migrants and what do we know of their competence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 Don't trust what politicians say about Turkey. You should never underestimate how fast the momentum in geo-political movements can change in times of crisis, and we are certainly in a crisis now with a mass influx of Middle Eastern and North African migration. What the commission wants it usually gets and now the last fringes of the old Soviet Union have been drafted in to the community Turkey and its inhabitants, indigenous or otherwise, will be the next clutch of cheap labour they set their eyes on. When General Franco died it only took 10 years for Spain to be accepted into the EU. It might be said that Turkey has a long way to go to being accepted but so did Spain and the brutishness of Erdogan has nothing on the barbarism of Franco, a man who had an iron grip on Spain by setting up 200 concentration camps to systematically wipe out his political opponents. Ten years from military dictatorship to member of the EU. Fact Check 1: EU final policy decisions are taken by the member states via the Council (& Parliament), NOT by the Commission Fact Check 2: The EU member states, including the UK, approved EU enlargement via the Council (i.e. the states agreeing unanimously) - it WASN'T the Commission Fact Check 3: Jean-Claude Juncker didn't burn my toast at lunchtime Fact Check 4: The Brussels Bureaucrats didn't tear Matty James' ligaments Fact Check 5: From Thatcher in the 80s through to EU enlargement into Eastern Europe, the UK - and the Tories, in particular - fervently SUPPORTED this expansion, when several other EU members weren't so sure: Telegraph, 2004 on the EU enlargement: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/1460780/Thatchers-Bruges-vision-becomes-reality-as-eastern-bloc-returns.html The prophetic words of Margaret Thatcher's Bruges speech become reality today when the European Union expands to the former Soviet bloc and Britain celebrates a triumph in foreign policy. "We must never forget that east of the Iron Curtain peoples who once enjoyed a full share of European culture and identity have been cut off from their roots," she declared in 1988. "We shall always look on Warsaw, Prague and Budapest as great European cities.Some 15 years later, these cities are joining the EU along with seven other European capitals. The EU's enlargement does not just heal the division of the Cold War. It is also a fulfilment of a key British aim - the creation of an expanded Europe that buries any idea of a federal superstate, breaks Franco-German dominance, supports Nato and favours Anglo-Saxon liberal economic models over French-style dirigisme. Successive Conservative governments promoted the idea of "widening" Europe as a means of arresting the "deepening" of the EU. Why say Turkey is a non-issue? It's clearly an issue, at some point Turkey will join the EU. It's going to happen despite the many valid objections from various places to their membership. Why does it matter if it is 2 years or 20 years? It's still something many in this country do not want. Sharpe's Fox is right to say that Spain joined the EU within about 10 years of the end of Franco's dictatorship. But by then, er, Franco was dead, the dictatorship had ended and a stable democracy had been restored. If Turkey underwent a similarly dramatic democratic transformation, it might stand a chance in 10-20 years. It seems to be heading in the opposite direction, though. However, Spain joined long before the introduction of the single market, never mind freedom of movement. For a nation like Turkey to join now and enter the single market with freedom of movement would be much more difficult. More to the point, EVERY EU STATE HAS A VETO over new members - including the UK, including France & Germany, where immigration is already a massive issue (Turkish immigration in Germany) and including Cyprus, partly occupied by the Turks, as Bovril points out. Pro-Turkey footage of Cameron represents him being diplomatic to a geostrategically important country (i.e. telling white lies to keep them friendly). There's ZERO chance of Turkey joining the EU any time soon. Mind you, what if Boris becomes PM, given the views he has expressed.... "And when that great moment comes, and the 2 halves of the Roman Empire are at last reunited in an expanded European Union...." - Boris Johnson, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobHawk Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 Why say Turkey is a non-issue? It's clearly an issue, at some point Turkey will join the EU. It's going to happen despite the many valid objections from various places to their membership. Why does it matter if it is 2 years or 20 years? It's still something many in this country do not want. Well, because it won't be 2 years. It probably won't be 20 years. But lets say it is 20 years. We have no idea what state the UK or the EU will look like in 20 years time. If, in 20 years time (unlikely), Turkey meets the relevant criteria to join the EU, it still has to be approved by all member states. We don't know who will be in power in 20 years or that they will be pro Turkey joining the EU, if it is that contentious then we can have another referendum. My point is, imagine the years it will take for Cyprus and Turkey to come to an agreement. It is still a very contentious issue in Cyprus and gien it only takes 1 veto to stop them - theres far too many ifs and buts to owrry about it in the referendum! It is a red herring, pure and simple! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apple987 Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 So we are the 78th country in the world according to area size And 22nd country in world according to population. It's actually getting to the point where birth control might be needed in 10 years. The country is running out of space. I literally can't even believe this is even a debate. How can everyone not see that this country isn't big enough for all this migration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgy Bob Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 So we are the 78th country in the world according to area size And 22nd country in world according to population. It's actually getting to the point where birth control might be needed in 10 years. The country is running out of space. I literally can't even believe this is even a debate. How can everyone not see that this country isn't big enough for all this migration? Only about 7% of the land is built on. Our population could quadruple and there would still be plenty of actual space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobHawk Posted 22 June 2016 Share Posted 22 June 2016 So we are the 78th country in the world according to area size And 22nd country in world according to population. It's actually getting to the point where birth control might be needed in 10 years. The country is running out of space. I literally can't even believe this is even a debate. How can everyone not see that this country isn't big enough for all this migration? If you don't like it you are currently lucky enough to have the freedom to move and live anywhere in the EU!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 22 June 2016 Author Share Posted 22 June 2016 Only about 7% of the land is built on. Our population could quadruple and there would still be plenty of actual space. Which would mean less farmland and more flooding I presume amongst other thnigs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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