Terrorist Attacks

[Nick]

So Bernie Eccleston's Mother In Law has been kidnapped in Brazil and they want quite a few pennies for her safe return.....

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-36891829

 

 

[Guest MattP]

As per usual, wise words from Maajid Nawaz.
 

For years in Britain there has been a pernicious trend to shy away from making a case for our liberal values among minority communities. As these values continued their march unabated among the mainstream, certain multiculturalists assumed that to assert them among minorities would be deemed offensive, perhaps racist, and in the Muslim context even strangely Islamophobic.

 

Due to these two trends, as a country we celebrated our cities as they self-segregated into isolated cultural ghettos. Division in areas such as Dewsbury and parts of Bradford was hailed as diversity. Self-segregation was supported as cultural tolerance. Disintegration was championed as integration. Those of my fellow liberals who promoted such policies believed they were doing so to help us Muslims. Yet this “help” couldn’t have been more disempowering.

 

Failing to advocate for liberal values within groups and not merely between groups led to a stifling of creativity and a lack of diversity among Muslims. Rebel voices who needed our support inside these communities suffered the most, and feel betrayed by liberals to this day. I call these the minority within the minority: feminist Muslims, gay Muslims, ex-Muslims, secular Muslims and anyone else deemed to be heretical or not Muslim enough.

 

Vague platitudes that this has nothing to do with Islam are as unhelpful as saying that this is what Islam is all about. Extremism certainly has something to do with Islam. We must accept that the world is in the midst of a generational struggle to distinguish the faith from Islamism, a political ideology that seeks to impose itself on society and its violent arm of jihadism. The task ahead of us is to name this ideology, isolate it and then discredit it while supporting those who seek to reform Islam today.

 

For years we've been screaming at every opportunity (largely on deaf ears) of a global jihadist insurgency, that cannot be defeated merely by law or war, and requires all of society to be engaged in a generational struggle against the Islamist ideology, and not merely against this specific jihadist terror group, or that. Too few took us seriously, and many in government circles smirked at us, and even actively blocked our way. Many of my fellow Muslims disowned us and actively disparaged us. And many of my fellow liberals sneered at us, while warning against us.

 

Well, this is what that global jihadist insurgency looks like

[Nick]

27 minutes ago, MattP said:

As per usual, wise words from Maajid Nawaz.
 

For years in Britain there has been a pernicious trend to shy away from making a case for our liberal values among minority communities. As these values continued their march unabated among the mainstream, certain multiculturalists assumed that to assert them among minorities would be deemed offensive, perhaps racist, and in the Muslim context even strangely Islamophobic.

 

Due to these two trends, as a country we celebrated our cities as they self-segregated into isolated cultural ghettos. Division in areas such as Dewsbury and parts of Bradford was hailed as diversity. Self-segregation was supported as cultural tolerance. Disintegration was championed as integration. Those of my fellow liberals who promoted such policies believed they were doing so to help us Muslims. Yet this “help” couldn’t have been more disempowering.

 

Failing to advocate for liberal values within groups and not merely between groups led to a stifling of creativity and a lack of diversity among Muslims. Rebel voices who needed our support inside these communities suffered the most, and feel betrayed by liberals to this day. I call these the minority within the minority: feminist Muslims, gay Muslims, ex-Muslims, secular Muslims and anyone else deemed to be heretical or not Muslim enough.

 

Vague platitudes that this has nothing to do with Islam are as unhelpful as saying that this is what Islam is all about. Extremism certainly has something to do with Islam. We must accept that the world is in the midst of a generational struggle to distinguish the faith from Islamism, a political ideology that seeks to impose itself on society and its violent arm of jihadism. The task ahead of us is to name this ideology, isolate it and then discredit it while supporting those who seek to reform Islam today.

 

For years we've been screaming at every opportunity (largely on deaf ears) of a global jihadist insurgency, that cannot be defeated merely by law or war, and requires all of society to be engaged in a generational struggle against the Islamist ideology, and not merely against this specific jihadist terror group, or that. Too few took us seriously, and many in government circles smirked at us, and even actively blocked our way. Many of my fellow Muslims disowned us and actively disparaged us. And many of my fellow liberals sneered at us, while warning against us.

 

Well, this is what that global jihadist insurgency looks like

 

You should read his autobiography Matt if you haven't already, it's quite good.

[Guest MattP]

7 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

 

You should read his autobiography Matt if you haven't already, it's quite good.

 

I will give it a read, I lovce his columns in The Times and Mail on Sunday, didn't have him down as someone you would have been a fan of at all.

[Thracian]

1 hour ago, Swan Lesta said:

 

This sounds nice but is ideological, nigh impossible to implement and a tad crude to somehow map a selective criteria based on stereotypes of what an the demographics of the immigrant terrorist might look like.....

 

This issue is not going away or going to be able to be effectively contained even if the most militant regimes are imposed to control migration and monitor people.

 

I happen to hold Merkel in reasonably high esteem in her ethos toward many subjects.

 

Its just a bit difficult to separate those who yearn to breathe free and those who yearn to cause harm! I'd still rather have a society built on the former than changed forever out of fear of the latter. 

 

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

 

You won't have a society soon.

And it's no use pretending there are perfect solutions that don't impact on people who don't deserve it because there aren't.

As for your poem it's as flawed as the views you promote. I truly wish it wasn't but those who will wreck the dream have shown over centuries that they can't and won't live with anyone who doesn't carry their own torch with its own imprisoned flame, or haven't you opened your eyes to notice?. 

Syria lies flattened. By whose hand was that allowed to come about?. Girls in Nigeria have been raped, mutilated and murdered while Christian churches burned. Christians have been carved up for meat in abattors in the Middle East. Holidaymakers shot on the beach in Sousse....

The golden door might have been open - at least to some extent -  but the victims were never going to get the chance to find it (other than in paradise) so that's one part of the strategy that's wanting 

The woman with the torch doesn't help those who won't be coming home and do you somehow expect that she will recognise the evil ones in disguise at the golden door for exiles?

Because there are clearly no humans in the West seem able or willing to do it. So I really hope she can open those silent lips the poet talks about and put some sense into people's heads before the doors are breached by still more infiltrators, and all those in genuine need, who even managed to walk through those doors, still find themselves  destined for destruction, courtesy of the very open door you seem to champion and illuminate for all that it's a gateway to the same sort of darkness they've left behind.

Almost every day I play golf.

And each different day I see evidence of the night before.

Bird feathers scattered in patches around the course. Mutilated mammals who've also breathed their last. These are the victims of the foxes, the sparrow hawks, the kestrels and all the stronger or more aggressive wildlife.

They leave a simple philosophy. That if you want something, including your life, you have to fight for it and protect it any which way you can.

I'd doubt that wildlife prays for anything but in the great scheme of things it wouldn't matter anyway. There are victors and victims in every aspect of life. The victims say their prayers, or sit out on the moonlit fairways all vulnerable, while the victors take action.              

Edited 26 July 2016 by Thracian

[Nick]

11 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

I will give it a read, I lovce his columns in The Times and Mail on Sunday, didn't have him down as someone you would have been a fan of at all.

Well he's a Lib Dem of sorts - and I have to read lots of this sort of stuff as it's connected to my field of work.

[Nick]

6 minutes ago, Thracian said:

You won't have a society soon.

And it's no use pretending there are perfect solutions that don't impact on people who don't deserve it because there aren't.

As for your poem it's as flawed as the views you promote. I truly wish it wasn't but those who will wreck the dream have shown over centuries that they can't and won't live with anyone who doesn't carry their own torch with its own imprisoned flame, or haven't you opened your eyes to notice?. 

Syria lies flattened. By whose hand was that allowed to come about?. Girls in Nigeria have been raped, mutilated and murdered while Christian churches burned. Christians have been carved up for meat in abattors in the Middle East. Holidaymakers shot on the beach in Sousse....

The golden door might have been open - at least to some extent -  but the victims swere never going to get the chance to find it (other than in paradise) so that's one part of the strategy that's wanting 

The woman with the torch doesn't help those who won't be coming home and do you somehow expect that she will recognise the evil ones in disguise at the golden door for exiles?

Because there are clearly no humans in the West seem able to do it so I really hope she can open those silent lips the poet talks about and put some sense into people's heads before the doors are breached by still more infiltrators, and all those in genuine need, who even managed to walk through are found to be at he mercy, even there still destined for destruction, courtesy of the very open door you seem to champion and illuminate for all that it's a gateway to darkness.

Almost every day I play golf.

And each different day I see evidence of the night before.

Bird feathers scattered in patches around the course. Mutilated mammals who've also breathed their last. These are the victims of the foxes, the sparrow hawks, the kestrels and all the stronger or more aggressive wildlife.

They leave a simple philosophy. That if you want something, including your life, you have to fight for it and protect it any which way you can.

I'd doubt that wildlife prays for anything but in the great scheme of things it wouldn't matter anyway. There are victors and victims in every aspect of life. The victims say their prayers, or sit out on the moonlit fairways all vulnerable, while the victors take action.              

 

Again, I draw your attention to the difference between Islam as a faith and Islam as a political ideology it's the political ideology that requires our attention and it's important to separate it Tony as your strokes in this thread are arguably applied liberally with a very broad brush which means in your preoccupation and anger your points come over as discriminatory towards broad demographics of people.

[leicsmac]

13 minutes ago, Thracian said:

You won't have a society soon.

And it's no use pretending there are perfect solutions that don't impact on people who don't deserve it because there aren't.

As for your poem it's as flawed as the views you promote. I truly wish it wasn't but those who will wreck the dream have shown over centuries that they can't and won't live with anyone who doesn't carry their own torch with its own imprisoned flame, or haven't you opened your eyes to notice?. 

Syria lies flattened. By whose hand was that allowed to come about?. Girls in Nigeria have been raped, mutilated and murdered while Christian churches burned. Christians have been carved up for meat in abattors in the Middle East. Holidaymakers shot on the beach in Sousse....

The golden door might have been open - at least to some extent -  but the victims were never going to get the chance to find it (other than in paradise) so that's one part of the strategy that's wanting 

The woman with the torch doesn't help those who won't be coming home and do you somehow expect that she will recognise the evil ones in disguise at the golden door for exiles?

Because there are clearly no humans in the West seem able or willing to do it. So I really hope she can open those silent lips the poet talks about and put some sense into people's heads before the doors are breached by still more infiltrators, and all those in genuine need, who even managed to walk through those doors, still find themselves  destined for destruction, courtesy of the very open door you seem to champion and illuminate for all that it's a gateway to the same sort of darkness they've left behind.

Almost every day I play golf.

And each different day I see evidence of the night before.

Bird feathers scattered in patches around the course. Mutilated mammals who've also breathed their last. These are the victims of the foxes, the sparrow hawks, the kestrels and all the stronger or more aggressive wildlife.

They leave a simple philosophy. That if you want something, including your life, you have to fight for it and protect it any which way you can.

I'd doubt that wildlife prays for anything but in the great scheme of things it wouldn't matter anyway. There are victors and victims in every aspect of life. The victims say their prayers, or sit out on the moonlit fairways all vulnerable, while the victors take action.              

 

You could be right. You may well be right.

 

But that line of thinking - that humans are merely a slave to our natural evolutionary instinct - is the way the human race goes extinct. Inevitably.

[Guest MattP]

16 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

You could be right. You may well be right.

 

But that line of thinking - that humans are merely a slave to our natural evolutionary instinct - is the way the human race goes extinct. Inevitably.

He may well be right.

 

One thing is for sure, many people now are having their lives ended in a way they could never have imagined in a short time ago, now Europeans everywhere are having to get used to things in day to day life that we would have thought was absolutely absurd just 20-30 years ago, something we thought as a continent we were well beyond.

 

It's pretty tragic all in all, we've had the worst century of our lives defeating facism and communism, two of the worst ideologies the World has seen and as we move into the next one it appears our next battle will be against one we spent centuries before that trying to repel, even more retrograde ideologies.

 

I know this stuff is pretty normal in the Middle East but I doubt you could go back to the 90's and have many people predicting this to the extent it has already got to just a generation later.

 

I certainly won't shed any sympathy for the churches though, the Catholic Church, the Pope, Giles Fraser, Justin Welby, Rowan Williams have all been among biggest cheerleaders in the support of mass migration over my lifetime, they have just as much moral certainty as the secular "no borders" tribe when it comes to to this issue and like most utopian appeals based on Christiantity I don't think it will end well for them,

[Thracian]

The instinct of every living creature is to survive first. Those with brains should be capable of evolving and, indeed, there are some signs of that happening in terms of scientific/exploratory/ and other advancements. But even then their seemingly capable minds so often fail to anticipate, understand or counter the downsides of those developments and arguably create as many problems as they solve in one way or another.

 

Culturally though I've seen little encouragement. Domestically, nationally, internationally, mankind still seems combative with more and more rules being needed to keep them from each others throats either physically or metaphorically.

 

 

The figures are pretty shocking: 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

 

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/05/u-s-currently-fighting-74-different-wars-that-it-publicly-admits.html

 

I don't say there's no hope for world peace at any time in our future. Degrees of peace might be possible as time goes on but it will be a mighty slow process and one that will require either an incredible and sustained programme of education or the domination of one school of thought - as the Islamists would wish.

 

Unfortunately Islamists can't even keep the peace among themselves - and never have done - so that's a dead end.

 

Pacifism won't win while weapons manufacturers are pulling so many strings so there needs, perhaps, to be some genuinely concerted effort through the internet. Broadly I'd encourage that given the right safeguards/parameters etc and a lot of other things I've never sat down to gt my head around.

 

But there's no chance the way the world's set up just now and for countless reasons.

 

I might yet give it some thought to suggest a way forward though.

 

But you're up against seemingly insurmountable pitfalls. Like the basic untrustworthiness of people. And their greed, selfishness, need to dominate,  their fears, hatred, envy, populatory needs, lack of trust and so on.

 

Of course a solution can be found - I do have faith in the human brain if not the human mind. And I don't like the idea of giving up. It would somehow make our existence on Earth seem pointless other than for survival and survival of a brained being, surely has a greater purpose than that.

 

Thinking aloud, sorry to ramble.   

 

                 

Edited 27 July 2016 by Thracian

[leicsmac]

Yeah.

 

It just seems daft that as the only species actually aware of the stupidity of fighting amongst each other in terms of the future of our species we continue to do it anyway (and even more absurdly believe it to be a necessity), rather than, you know, building a platform and doing work that will ensure the continued survival of mankind.

 

And I like your last few lines, Thrac. I'll make an idealist out of you yet.

[Captain...]

15 minutes ago, Thracian said:

But you're up against seemingly insurmountable pitfalls. Like the basic untrustworthiness of people. And their greed, selfishness, need to dominate,  their fears, hatred, envy, populatory needs and so on. Of course a solution can be found - I do have faith in the human brain if not the human mind. And I don't like the idea of giving up. It would somehow make our existence on Earth seem pointless other than for survival and survival of a brained being surely has a greater purpose than that.

                 

This is the problem you  can't fight fire with fire, you can't combat greed and selfishness with greed and selfishness, you can't combat intolerance with intolerance.

 

You can use what happened in Germany to attack Merkel, it is really sad the generosity and kindness shown by Germany and other European nations has been repaid with murder and rape (by a minority), but that doesn't mean it was wrong. You can't measure what good it did in the same terms. We can't measure how many lives were saved, how many women and children were protected, how many terrorists could have been created by shutting the borders and pushing them away. We will never know how much worse things could have been, only how bad things are now.

 

You can only defeat this long term with education and a will from all to finding a way for all people of all beliefs to live together, but in the short term what do you with those that are intent on destroying the way of life of others? If you attack them you just continue the cycle, imprisoning doesn't work, killing them creates martyrs, you can't ignore them, but what can you do? On a grand scale, I don't know, but on a personal level we should not be spreading hate and fear, demonising innocent people for their beliefs and blaming people for doing the right thing. We should look to help in any way we can, whether that is donating money or time or standing up to intolerance when you see it or working with our local communities. If this is the greatest threat to humanity since the Nazis, then we probably could and should be doing more (me included).

[Dr The Singh]

4 hours ago, Swan Lesta said:

You are having a mare here.

 

I know Singhy and he knows me. 

 

My my comment was clearly sarcastic idiocy that nobody in their right mind would interpret as serious and in fact meant exactly the opposite of what you are saying.

 

I'll be here all week to help any others from North West Leicestershire through the day.

 

I understood what you meant buddy, I loved the railway man's response though.......very true

[Dr The Singh]

4 hours ago, The Railway Man said:

You made a comment completely unacceptable to somebody, whether that was being used as a dig at someone else (I don't doubt that) or not it was still unacceptable to do that and insulting to the community of one of Britain's most peaceful religions. You owe him an apology.

 

As I say, educate yourself about the religions of Asia, they aren't "all the same" as you seem to think.

Lol, yeah, to add to the apology, I want a packet of crisps and half a pint of mild.

 

I like you Railway Man......your a good en

[Countryfox]

Well I hope you have learnt a lesson Mr Swan Lesta, you racist bigot !! ....    don't mess with the Railway Man !      

[MC Prussian]

8 hours ago, MattP said:

If what I'm reading is true this attack on France sounds very gruesome, how you attack an old man like that?

 

Sky now reporting a shooting in Germany as well.

Not related to any sort of terror, as it was "just" a 72-year old man attacking and killing his former doctor at the Benjamin Franklin University clinic, which is part of the well-known and renowned Charité chain.

[Dr The Singh]

Where's my pint of mild, Swanny you racist

[Guest MattP]

We now learn the guy has tried to go to Syria twice and as punishment was sent home to live with his parents on tag.

 

What are we doing? Seriously.

[Nick]

12 hours ago, Dr The Singh said:

Where's my pint of mild, Swanny you racist

 

 

[purpleronnie]

58 minutes ago, MattP said:

We now learn the guy has tried to go to Syria twice and as punishment was sent home to live with his parents on tag.

 

What are we doing? Seriously.

What amazed me was the tag was turned off for a few hours each morning to allow him to leave home.

[Nick]

42 minutes ago, MattP said:

We now learn the guy has tried to go to Syria twice and as punishment was sent home to live with his parents on tag.

 

What are we doing? Seriously.

 

Okay - it's a tough one.

 

You can have all the psychological assessments in the world, all the profiling about people at risk of radicalisation - there's so many kids out there with strange fantasies that its impossible to find out about or identify a particular fantasy as dangerous and be sure or give a high percentage / gut feeling that its going to be acted upon.. 

 

Going to Syria or attempting to go to Syria twice should be a huge clue so its likely he was monitored by security services and tagged so they knew he was in at night and attending school/work... (He likely had not committed any serious offences so they didn't have any / enough grounds to lock him up.) ...the problem with lone wolf attacks is that the systems used to monitor - like phone and internet behaviours are less effective as target suspects don't talk to anybody else about their attack or need anybody else to acquire what they need to carry out said attack.

 

Predicting future behaviour is a nightmare. You can base assessments on criminogenic need by looking at risk of serious harm and re-offending based on previous behaviours and crimes but this is problematic in its own way as its based on what's happened already and not what's going to happen.....

 

So you get a young person who's sad, depressed, bullied, emotionally detached due to say abuse of some kind and they shoplift or skip school..... So whilst CJS professionals can see a low level petty offender and work on their decision making, thoughts feelings and behaviours, next week kid takes a hammer out of his old mans toolbox and creates mayhem...... There's little way of predicting such behaviours and in many cases with young people seeing that one bad decision doesn't always mean any more crime will occur at all. 

 

 

[Manwell Pablo]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

We now learn the guy has tried to go to Syria twice and as punishment was sent home to live with his parents on tag.

 

What are we doing? Seriously.

 

 

yeah

 

Now this is where Tony has a point. 

[Guest MattP]

15 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

 

Okay - it's a tough one.

 

You can have all the psychological assessments in the world, all the profiling about people at risk of radicalisation - there's so many kids out there with strange fantasies that its impossible to find out about or identify a particular fantasy as dangerous and be sure or give a high percentage / gut feeling that its going to be acted upon.. 

 

Going to Syria or attempting to go to Syria twice should be a huge clue so its likely he was monitored by security services and tagged so they knew he was in at night and attending school/work... (He likely had not committed any serious offences so they didn't have any / enough grounds to lock him up.) ...the problem with lone wolf attacks is that the systems used to monitor - like phone and internet behaviours are less effective as target suspects don't talk to anybody else about their attack or need anybody else to acquire what they need to carry out said attack.

 

Whatever the situation was here a person who wants to go and fight for Islamic State should certainly not be walking the streets, that's not a tough one, for a start we know this wasn't a fantasy as he had tried to do it.

 

If a grown adult wants to go to Syria and fight in this war we should let them do it, it's far better than us having to deal with them here, if they have those sort of views Europe is not a natural home for them anyway.

[Nick]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

 

Whatever the situation was here a person who wants to go and fight for Islamic State should certainly not be walking the streets, that's not a tough one, for a start we know this wasn't a fantasy as he had tried to do it.

 

If a grown adult wants to go to Syria and fight in this war we should let them do it, it's far better than us having to deal with them here, if they have those sort of views Europe is not a natural home for them anyway.

Persecute or lock up every sympathiser, suspect or individual with m/h issues known to services - you play right into their hands and create hundreds and thousands more buddy.

 

Now I'd like to think British security services are a little better than some of the others around Europe my post was an attempt to illustrate some of the difficulties faced and that simple reasoning doesn't cut the mustard as a solution.

 

I've spent a significant proportion of my career working in public protection in various contexts and environments and what I suppose annoys me the most is that when nothing happens nobody says anything despite many agencies working together day and night to protect the public from a plethora of threats and risks but when a crisis ensues, you get the average citizen pointing out things that appear obvious after the event and services can't come out and say just how many cases they are monitoring or successfully prevent from causing harm on a daily basis. Sometimes - people themselves don't know they are going to commit or go through with committing acts until moments before - it's not a simple science.

 

 

[Guest MattP]

5 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

Persecute or lock up every sympathiser, suspect or individual with m/h issues known to services - you play right into their hands and create hundreds and thousands more buddy.

 

Now I'd like to think British security services are a little better than some of the others around Europe my post was an attempt to illustrate some of the difficulties faced and that simple reasoning doesn't cut the mustard as a solution.

 

I've spent a significant proportion of my career working in public protection in various contexts and environments and what I suppose annoys me the most is that when nothing happens nobody says anything despite many agencies working together day and night to protect the public from a plethora of threats and risks but when a crisis ensues, you get the average citizen pointing out things that appear obvious after the event and services can't come out and say just how many cases they are monitoring or successfully prevent from causing harm on a daily basis. Sometimes - people themselves don't know they are going to commit or go through with committing acts until moments before - it's not a simple science.

 

 

I'm not asking you to lock up every sympathiser, suspect or individual, I'm asking the authorities to lock up those who have already tried to act on these things as this man had.

 

The last paragraph is totally irrelevent, I don't expect you or your colleagues to spot every single person capable of things like this, but I do expect the ones who have already tried to join a death cult to be removed from society.