Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Strokes]

12 minutes ago, toddybad said:

 

 

How is that in relation to other years? I always over spend at Xmas and spend Jan, Feb recovering.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Strokes said:

How is that in relation to other years? I always over spend at Xmas and spend Jan, Feb recovering.

I just found the result interesting, I have no data on other years. The question it's about finances for the year, not just right now.

[Carl the Llama]

Not really sure you can read anything into a random twitter poll relying on self-assessment tbh.

 

But IoI at Barclays pretending like they give a damn about "the struggle" at the end of a year where they've reduced their number of branches and continued to replace employees with machines in the ones that are still 'open' (if you're lucky enough to be able to make their opening times) despite (or perhaps in order to secure) booming profits for those at the top.

 

[Buce]

7 hours ago, Strokes said:

How is that in relation to other years? I always over spend drink too much at Xmas and spend Jan, Feb recovering.

 

[Innovindil]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-42667451

 

How do you even **** up like that? 

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

How is that in relation to other years? I always over spend drink too much........

 

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Innovindil said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-42667451

 

How do you even **** up like that? 

Cripes. How incompetent can you get?

[Bellend Sebastian]

3 hours ago, Innovindil said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-42667451

 

How do you even **** up like that? 

It's not quite sending an eight year old boy into space with a paedophile 'by mistake' but still surely gets filed under 'the one thing we didn't want to happen'

[Guest]

An article combining my two pet annoyances - credit and the Tories dismantling of the NHS (I'm blaming the Tories for Brexit as it was their infighting over thirty years which led to the vote)

 

Fears of Brexit drain as more EU27 ambulance staff quit the NHS

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/13/nhs-ambulance-staff-quit-brexit-eu27?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

[Buce]

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jan/13/government-challenged-over-decision-to-give-more-work-to-carillion

 

Carillion crisis looms for government as time runs out for refinancing deal

 

he crisis at Carillion threatens to engulf the government as opposition parties question the decision to continue awarding public sector contracts to the services and construction giant when ministers knew it was in trouble.

Whitehall departments are holding emergency meetings this weekend to discuss contingency plans if the Wolverhampton-based firm, which is integral to a raft of public infrastructure projects including HS2 and several major road schemes, is forced into administration.

Reports that the company’s proposed plan to turn around its fortunes has been rejected outright by stakeholders, which include three leading banks – Barclays, HSBC and Santander UK, have been played down.

However, time is running out for a deal to be struck and there are claims that Carillion could be placed in the hands of administrators Ernst & Young as early as Monday.

 

Such a move would raise serious questions about a raft of government contracts awarded to Carillion.

“It has been clear for months that Carillion has been in difficulty but the government has continued to hand over contracts to the company even after profits warnings were issued,” said MP Jon Trickett, Labour’s shadow Cabinet Office minister.

“Jobs and public services are now at risk because the Tories were blinded by their commitment to a failing ideological project of introducing the profit motive into taxpayer-funded services. Labour urges the government to stand ready to intervene and bring these crucial public sector contracts back in-house in order to protect Carillion’s employees, pension holders and British taxpayers.”

Chris Grayling, the transport secretary, is facing the most pressure. Last year, his department awarded a consortium, which included Carillion, a share of contracts for the HS2 line, just a week after the company issued a shock profit warning that marked the start of its crisis.

At the time, Grayling said he had been given “secure undertakings” from the company.

Whitehall insiders stressed that the HS2 contracts had been “stress tested” to ensure that if one contractor pulled out, others in the consortium were able to fill the gap.

But Andrew Adonis, the former chair of the government’s national infrastructure committee, said: “It looks as if Chris Grayling may have been bailing out Carillion

 

as well as Virgin. They got HS2 contracts from him after their troubles emerged in the summer, raising big questions about his due diligence and judgment.”

Carillion, which has debts of about £1.5bn and a pension fund shortfall of almost £600m, is proposing that the banks swap their debts for majority equity stakes in the business.

But a more urgent sticking point, the Observer understands, is the need for a £300m cash injection to keep the business afloat. With the banks balking at stumping up more cash, there is speculation that the government may have to step in to guarantee Carillion’s short term future.

 

The Lib Dem leader, Vince Cable, rejected such a move: “The government can’t just do a financial bailout. The shareholders and the creditors – the big banks – have got to take a hit, they can’t just offload all of the losses on to the taxpayer.”

The company, which employs 43,000 people globally, is Highways England’s second-biggest supplier by value of contracts, according to Construction News. The firm is also Network Rail’s second-largest contractor, winning work worth £372m last year.

Rachel Reeves, the Labour MP who chairs the business select committee, called on the government to make a Commons statement on Monday.

“They need to explain what they knew and when, as well as what they are going to do now to protect jobs, public services, crucial infrastructure investment – but also taxpayers,” she said.

“I don’t think that taxpayers’ money should be used to prop it up. Investors have known for some time of the difficulties here. Taxpayers should not have to bail out this company.”

Several government agencies rallied to the company’s defence on Saturday.

A Network Rail spokesman said: “Carillion is a good supplier to Network Rail and has a number of contracts across the country. Carillion’s delivery performance is strong and we enjoy an open, honest and constructive relationship.”

David Poole, executive director for procurement and commercial, Highways England, said the company was “delivering a number of key projects in our major project portfolio”.

Last year Carillion had sales of £5.2bn and was valued at almost £1bn. But since then its share price has plummeted and it is now worth around £60m. Experts said it is paying the price for overreaching itself.

A government spokeswoman said: “The company has kept us informed of the steps it is taking to restructure the business. We remain supportive of their discussions with their stakeholders and await future updates on their progress.”

[Rogstanley]

It would be nothing short of criminal in my book if the tax payer is forced to bail out a private business whose own incompetence is the reason for its failure. 

 

Just TUPE the shopfloor staff in house and then onto the replacement company and let the incompetent management and fat cat bastards fall on their swords, for once.

Edited 13 January 2018 by Rogstanley

[Strokes]

16 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

It would be nothing short of criminal in my book if the tax payer is forced to bail out a private business whose own incompetence is the reason for its failure. 

 

Just TUPE the shopfloor staff in house and then onto the replacement company and let the incompetent management and fat cat bastards fall on their swords, for once.

I completely agree.

[Webbo]

I don't know a lot about this carillion thing but as a principle I'm against govt propping up private companies.

[Buce]

5 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I don't know a lot about this carillion thing but as a principle I'm against govt propping up private companies.

 

Ok, who are you and what have you done with the real Webbo?

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

Ok, who are you and what have you done with the real Webbo?

I've actually been Moosebreath all along.

[Sharpe's Fox]

Underwrite competitors in tenders, hoover up all the public sector contracts, default on them, use the taxpayer as an insurance policy to bail you out as your too big to fail. Classic move by the neo-liberals who don’t have the faith in their own beloved system to sustain their trade, so why should we?

[Carl the Llama]

 

[Webbo]

If the public sector take on a job and can't do it for the budget we have to pick up the tab for that as well. I'm not against, in fact I'm very much in favour of, competitive tendering.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Buce said:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jan/13/government-challenged-over-decision-to-give-more-work-to-carillion

 

Carillion crisis looms for government as time runs out for refinancing deal

 

he crisis at Carillion threatens to engulf the government as opposition parties question the decision to continue awarding public sector contracts to the services and construction giant when ministers knew it was in trouble.

Whitehall departments are holding emergency meetings this weekend to discuss contingency plans if the Wolverhampton-based firm, which is integral to a raft of public infrastructure projects including HS2 and several major road schemes, is forced into administration.

Reports that the company’s proposed plan to turn around its fortunes has been rejected outright by stakeholders, which include three leading banks – Barclays, HSBC and Santander UK, have been played down.

However, time is running out for a deal to be struck and there are claims that Carillion could be placed in the hands of administrators Ernst & Young as early as Monday.

 

Such a move would raise serious questions about a raft of government contracts awarded to Carillion.

“It has been clear for months that Carillion has been in difficulty but the government has continued to hand over contracts to the company even after profits warnings were issued,” said MP Jon Trickett, Labour’s shadow Cabinet Office minister.

“Jobs and public services are now at risk because the Tories were blinded by their commitment to a failing ideological project of introducing the profit motive into taxpayer-funded services. Labour urges the government to stand ready to intervene and bring these crucial public sector contracts back in-house in order to protect Carillion’s employees, pension holders and British taxpayers.”

Chris Grayling, the transport secretary, is facing the most pressure. Last year, his department awarded a consortium, which included Carillion, a share of contracts for the HS2 line, just a week after the company issued a shock profit warning that marked the start of its crisis.

At the time, Grayling said he had been given “secure undertakings” from the company.

Whitehall insiders stressed that the HS2 contracts had been “stress tested” to ensure that if one contractor pulled out, others in the consortium were able to fill the gap.

But Andrew Adonis, the former chair of the government’s national infrastructure committee, said: “It looks as if Chris Grayling may have been bailing out Carillion

 

as well as Virgin. They got HS2 contracts from him after their troubles emerged in the summer, raising big questions about his due diligence and judgment.”

Carillion, which has debts of about £1.5bn and a pension fund shortfall of almost £600m, is proposing that the banks swap their debts for majority equity stakes in the business.

But a more urgent sticking point, the Observer understands, is the need for a £300m cash injection to keep the business afloat. With the banks balking at stumping up more cash, there is speculation that the government may have to step in to guarantee Carillion’s short term future.

 

The Lib Dem leader, Vince Cable, rejected such a move: “The government can’t just do a financial bailout. The shareholders and the creditors – the big banks – have got to take a hit, they can’t just offload all of the losses on to the taxpayer.”

The company, which employs 43,000 people globally, is Highways England’s second-biggest supplier by value of contracts, according to Construction News. The firm is also Network Rail’s second-largest contractor, winning work worth £372m last year.

Rachel Reeves, the Labour MP who chairs the business select committee, called on the government to make a Commons statement on Monday.

“They need to explain what they knew and when, as well as what they are going to do now to protect jobs, public services, crucial infrastructure investment – but also taxpayers,” she said.

“I don’t think that taxpayers’ money should be used to prop it up. Investors have known for some time of the difficulties here. Taxpayers should not have to bail out this company.”

Several government agencies rallied to the company’s defence on Saturday.

A Network Rail spokesman said: “Carillion is a good supplier to Network Rail and has a number of contracts across the country. Carillion’s delivery performance is strong and we enjoy an open, honest and constructive relationship.”

David Poole, executive director for procurement and commercial, Highways England, said the company was “delivering a number of key projects in our major project portfolio”.

Last year Carillion had sales of £5.2bn and was valued at almost £1bn. But since then its share price has plummeted and it is now worth around £60m. Experts said it is paying the price for overreaching itself.

A government spokeswoman said: “The company has kept us informed of the steps it is taking to restructure the business. We remain supportive of their discussions with their stakeholders and await future updates on their progress.”

3 things, in order of importance:

 

1- Grayling should be sacked. This isn't the first time he's been involved in failed privatisation.

 

2- as webbo said, propping up private companies is a no. He didn't say it, but I will, companies bid lower than they can afford to win private business. As we all agree, the owners should take the hit.

 

3- the most important issue here is one I don't think we've discussed before. Private sector pensions shortfalls. It should be absolutely mandatory for businesses to pay in to pension funds at the same time as the employee. It should be made criminal to have a shortfall. If there is a shortfall there should be personal liability for the money within the company. Pension funds should be the top creditor, even above HMRC.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

If the public sector take on a job and can't do it for the budget we have to pick up the tab for that as well. I'm not against, in fact I'm very much in favour of, competitive tendering.

Have a look through the last page and yesterday's conversation about how bidding for public sector contracts actually works. There's a train companies keep failing. They try to rinse the taxpayer by tendering on minimum terms with the intention of maximising profits on everything that moves. It's the reason it costs £199 a lightbulb where private sector forms are involved in government procurement.

[Webbo]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Have a look through the last page and yesterday's conversation about how bidding for public sector contracts actually works. There's a train companies keep failing. They try to rinse the taxpayer by tendering on minimum terms with the intention of maximising profits on everything that moves. It's the reason it costs £199 a lightbulb where private sector forms are involved in government procurement.

It's true Labour did a terrible job for PFI. The thing is publicly owned firms have no incentive to be efficient or innovate. They're overmanned and run for the benefit of the people who work there. It's been tried before, nationalised industries are crap.

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, Webbo said:

It's true Labour did a terrible job for PFI. The thing is publicly owned firms have no incentive to be efficient or innovate. They're overmanned and run for the benefit of the people who work there. It's been tried before, nationalised industries are crap.

It's nothing to do with pfi. There are tens of thousands of non pfi procurement deals. Private sector companies involved in the public sector have no incentive to be efficient. Their incentive is to maximise profit. On the last page I explained how they do this from my personal experience of tendering for public service contracts previously. 

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

It's nothing to do with pfi. There are tens of thousands of non pfi procurement deals. Private sector companies involved in the public sector have no incentive to be efficient. Their incentive is to maximise profit. On the last page I explained how they do this from my personal experience of tendering for public service contracts previously. 

A lot of public sector procurement is a racket. You have to list how many ethnic minorities, women, gays etc to get on the tendering list, which excludes a lot of firms from the start. If you have to take on the old staff that's going to raise costs as well.I'm sure there's a lot of corruption as well. None of these things change if you nationalise these companies.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

https://carillionplc-uploads-shared.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/1039IT-interim-results-presentation-2017-original.pdf

 

The interim results presentation back in September was pretty damning. 

 

Yet, don't understand how a companies situation can drop off a cliff like that? Accounts are supposed to be independently audited. 

[Rogstanley]

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

The thing is publicly owned firms have no incentive to be efficient or innovate. They're overmanned and run for the benefit of the people who work there. It's been tried before, nationalised industries are crap.

I think it's naïve to think companies like Carillion, with tens of thousands of staff, operate any differently to the public sector. The stacks of middle management and those beneath them in Carillion are no more incentivised by profit than an average public sector worker. You have faith in the free market to create lean, efficient companies, but in this case that faith is clearly misplaced. It has created a misfiring behemoth, drowning in debt, desperate for the tax payer to bail it out.

 

Even more fundamental than that, is the fact that these government contracts don't actually offer any incentive to innovate or be efficient in a positive way at all, because profits are all but guaranteed. The incentive is to deliver the absolute minimum level of service needed to fulfil the contract at the lowest possible cost to the company, and then like toddy says, charge through the roof for the inevitable extras.

 

You can say "nationalised industries are crap" and you might be right, maybe there's an inherent difficulty in running such large scale complex operations that means they're always going to be a bit crap. But what the past few weeks have shown is that this model of privatisation, where private companies can have their cake and eat it, is worse than crap. Not only is the service crap, not only are things more expensive for the user than ever, but we're then being asked to stump up even more to make sure the failing fat cats get their golden handshakes.

 

Only this government could aim for a win-win situation and end up with a lose-lose-lose.

Edited 13 January 2018 by Rogstanley