Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Buce]

10 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

??????????? 

 

Did you read the report you posted or just the headline? These bad companies broke US regulation, that's why the health and safety inspectors were there. 

 

Yes. Did you?

 

But campaigners warned that other violations may go undetected. Tony Corbo, senior lobbyist with Food and Water Watch, said: “While the inspectors are able to cite the plants for hundreds of violations per week, I am confident that they are not catching every instance of unsafe practices being committed in these plants.”

Meat hygiene inspectors interviewed by the Guardian agreed, saying fast line speeds and other pressures in some plants meant it was “inevitable” that some breaches slipped through the net.

The findings are worrying, according to Prof Erik Millstone, a food safety expert at Sussex University, “because of the risks of spreading infectious pathogens from carcass to carcass, and between portions of meat. The rates at which outbreaks of infectious food poisoning occur in the US are significantly higher than in the UK, or the EU, and poor hygiene in the meat supply chain is [a] leading cause of food

 

The US has shockingly high levels of foodborne illness, according to a new analysis by UK pressure group Sustain. It says that annually, around 14.7% (48 million people) of the US population is estimated to suffer from an illness, compared to around 1.5% (1 million) in the UK. In the US, 128,000 are hospitalised, and 3,000 die each year of foodborne diseases.

One bug, salmonella, causes around 1m illnesses per year in the US, while in the UK the numbers of officially recorded incidents is relatively low, with just under 10,000 laboratory confirmed cases in 2016. However, unreported incidents could substantially increase those numbers. Salmonella takes hold on farms and is found in the guts of poultry and livestock: farm animals and birds can become contaminated with faeces containing the bacteria during transport to abattoirs, where slaughter and processing procedures can also spread it.

 

 

Edited 21 February 2018 by Buce

[Fox Ulike]

7 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Yes. Did you?

 

But campaigners warned that other violations may go undetected. Tony Corbo, senior lobbyist with Food and Water Watch, said: “While the inspectors are able to cite the plants for hundreds of violations per week, I am confident that they are not catching every instance of unsafe practices being committed in these plants.”

Meat hygiene inspectors interviewed by the Guardian agreed, saying fast line speeds and other pressures in some plants meant it was “inevitable” that some breaches slipped through the net.

The findings are worrying, according to Prof Erik Millstone, a food safety expert at Sussex University, “because of the risks of spreading infectious pathogens from carcass to carcass, and between portions of meat. The rates at which outbreaks of infectious food poisoning occur in the US are significantly higher than in the UK, or the EU, and poor hygiene in the meat supply chain is [a] leading cause of food

 

The US has shockingly high levels of foodborne illness, according to a new analysis by UK pressure group Sustain. It says that annually, around 14.7% (48 million people) of the US population is estimated to suffer from an illness, compared to around 1.5% (1 million) in the UK. In the US, 128,000 are hospitalised, and 3,000 die each year of foodborne diseases.

One bug, salmonella, causes around 1m illnesses per year in the US, while in the UK the numbers of officially recorded incidents is relatively low, with just under 10,000 laboratory confirmed cases in 2016. However, unreported incidents could substantially increase those numbers. Salmonella takes hold on farms and is found in the guts of poultry and livestock: farm animals and birds can become contaminated with faeces containing the bacteria during transport to abattoirs, where slaughter and processing procedures can also spread it.

 

 

Only yesterday David Davis was saying that the UK would seek to maintain it's high standards in things like Food Regulations. So hopefully this sort of thing can be kept out of the UK post-Brexit, and we can avoid a race-to-the-bottom in Food quality.

 

Also, one thing that Brexiteers never seem to accept is that the US is a lot further away than most of Europe. So, even with a free trade deal with the US, it's not gaurantted that US meat will actually be any cheaper once refrigerated transport costs and border checks etc have been factored in.

 

Now, you may well denounce me as a rabid sabatuer who is terrorising these boards with my demented beliefs  - but I do not believe that a lot of the Brexit strategy has been that well thought through.

[Innovindil]

32 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Yes. Did you?

 

But campaigners warned that other violations may go undetected. Tony Corbo, senior lobbyist with Food and Water Watch, said: “While the inspectors are able to cite the plants for hundreds of violations per week, I am confident that they are not catching every instance of unsafe practices being committed in these plants.”

Meat hygiene inspectors interviewed by the Guardian agreed, saying fast line speeds and other pressures in some plants meant it was “inevitable” that some breaches slipped through the net.

The findings are worrying, according to Prof Erik Millstone, a food safety expert at Sussex University, “because of the risks of spreading infectious pathogens from carcass to carcass, and between portions of meat. The rates at which outbreaks of infectious food poisoning occur in the US are significantly higher than in the UK, or the EU, and poor hygiene in the meat supply chain is [a] leading cause of food

 

The US has shockingly high levels of foodborne illness, according to a new analysis by UK pressure group Sustain. It says that annually, around 14.7% (48 million people) of the US population is estimated to suffer from an illness, compared to around 1.5% (1 million) in the UK. In the US, 128,000 are hospitalised, and 3,000 die each year of foodborne diseases.

One bug, salmonella, causes around 1m illnesses per year in the US, while in the UK the numbers of officially recorded incidents is relatively low, with just under 10,000 laboratory confirmed cases in 2016. However, unreported incidents could substantially increase those numbers. Salmonella takes hold on farms and is found in the guts of poultry and livestock: farm animals and birds can become contaminated with faeces containing the bacteria during transport to abattoirs, where slaughter and processing procedures can also spread it.

 

 

Wait, so because some breaches slip through the net, that means they are unregulated? 

 

Didn't we just have one of our major food suppliers go up for sale after getting slapped for breaking regulation? 

 

Didn't we just have a major European egg supplier breach regulations and have millions of contaminated eggs enter the market? 

 

How long ago was it when horse jokes were told in every pub? 

 

The problem isn't the regulations, it's the enforcement of them. I'd hope that as things entered this country they would be checked before being released to market. 

 

Posting statistics of footbourne illnesses means nothing, if I undercook a chicken I can get sick. Give me a breakdown of every illness directly caused by regulation breaches, or how many are caused by a texan deciding to cook his deer with a shotgun instead of an oven, it might have relevance then. 

[Rogstanley]

Unemployment on the rise and Mark Carney has said that brexit has already caused a 3.5% fall in real incomes and he expect it to be a 5% fall by the end of this year alone. 

[Foxxed]

 

This makes no sense to me. Why do we need more time? Surely we knew what we were doing right from the start? Just cut the cord now! Onwards to the land of milk and honey!

[Webbo]

7 hours ago, Fox Ulike said:

Yes because I'm comparing the piece that you quoted as similar to Nazi propaganda. Not the whole case for Brexit!

 

Lord give me strength.

You said

Quote

Seriously man, it's just propaganda. There isn't a single fact or piece of evidence presented.

You highlighted.

Quote

 they are deemed to be racists, xenophobes, nativists, jingoists, Nazis

Then, you said.

Quote

 I've highlighted matches with Soviet or Nazi propaganda

So you're saying there's no evidence that anyone is deemed to be a Nazi and then you call the writer a Nazi. Are you honestly that thick that you can't see the irony?

 

In any case, how is saying scientists are too frightened to state their opinions because of fear of being ostracised in any way Nazi? It's a ridiculous comparison.

[Fox Ulike]

14 minutes ago, Webbo said:

You said

You highlighted.

Then, you said.

So you're saying there's no evidence that anyone is deemed to be a Nazi and then you call the writer a Nazi. Are you honestly that thick that you can't see the irony?

 

In any case, how is saying scientists are too frightened to state their opinions because of fear of being ostracised in any way Nazi? It's a ridiculous comparison.

She didn't say that though did she. What she said was "Such sceptics have been compared to Holocaust deniers and targeted for calls that they be jailed, subjected to aversion therapy or drowned." You said it was a fair assessment!! Do you

 

I'm not thick. Thank you for that. (How on Earth did you get to be a moderator??!).

 

Do you genuinely not understand the difference between "a Nazi" and "language that matches with Nazi propaganda"?!!

 

What do you want me to do? Explain to you the difference between someone who identifies with a political ideology, and a style of writing?

 

Do you understand that Julius Ceasar and Latin are two different things??  

 

Maybe she is a Nazi. She sounds like one. Who cares???

 

 

[Wymsey]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-43141927

[Fox Ulike]

57 minutes ago, Webbo said:

You said

You highlighted.

Then, you said.

So you're saying there's no evidence that anyone is deemed to be a Nazi and then you call the writer a Nazi. Are you honestly that thick that you can't see the irony?

 

In any case, how is saying scientists are too frightened to state their opinions because of fear of being ostracised in any way Nazi? It's a ridiculous comparison.

 

Actually, what I do find ironic is that somebody who uses phrases like "Opponents must be demonised and silenced for ze good of humanity" would even be worried about being accused of using language that matches Nazi propaganda. She probably takes it as a compliment. It's clearly the vibe she was aiming at!  

 

Anyway, you posted it mate. You got nothing to say apart from "seems like a fair assessment"?

 

In which case, thanks for copying and pasting it. Your contribution today has been invaluable.

 

[Buce]

10 minutes ago, Wymeswold fox said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-43141927

 

A Tory Council.

 

I'm sure they must have banned the 'Lies about the NHS' bus...

 

Surely?

 

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/15829571.Boris_Johnson__UK_will_get_more_than___350_million_a_week_after_Brexit/

[Strokes]

25 minutes ago, Wymeswold fox said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-43141927

Getting early practice of failure I see.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/921978/Brexit-news-UK-EU-anti-Brexit-bus-campaign-remain-European-Union-London

[Buce]

 

NHS 'dangerously' short of 100,000 staff

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43143325

[Wymsey]

4 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

NHS 'dangerously' short of 100,000 staff

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43143325

Labour can sort out this mess the conservatives have made for sure..

Edited 21 February 2018 by Wymeswold fox

[Donut]

Ok youre all going to criticise for being more politically clued up 

 

But i cant really see any reason why brexit will be good even now, any kind of plan for what will happen, or find any agreement on what people voted FOR.

 

 

[Buce]

4 minutes ago, Donut said:

Ok youre all going to criticise for being more politically clued up 

 

But i cant really see any reason why brexit will be good even now, any kind of plan for what will happen, or find any agreement on what people voted FOR.

 

 

3

 

On the contrary, that seems very astute.

 

[Carl the Llama]

6 hours ago, Wymeswold fox said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-43141927

Unbelievable hypocrisy. 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

8 hours ago, Fox Ulike said:

 

Now, you may well denounce me as a rabid sabatuer who is terrorising these boards with my demented beliefs  - but I do not believe that a lot of the Brexit strategy has been that well thought through.

 

 

8 hours ago, Foxxed said:

 

This makes no sense to me. Why do we need more time? Surely we knew what we were doing right from the start? Just cut the cord now! Onwards to the land of milk and honey!

 

Both of you have made similar mistakes here - there has been no thought whatsoever, hence why we still don’t know what we are doing.

 

And as you mention it, Liam Fox is off to the land of milk and honey to negotiate a pre-emotive trade deal next week. 

[Donut]

Is there a real genuine possibility of losing employment rights?

 

I know there was a promise they would stay but ive seen plans to scrap them.

 

fvck off am i being forced to work 70 hours a week and lose my sick pay and holiday pay. Women losing maternity rights.

 

Newspapers that are pro brexit are talking this up like extending working weeks is progress. Its progress back to the stone age.

 

Im lucky im doing ok. But how about just pay people who work the low paid jobs a decent wage so they dont need to work 60 or 70 hours to make ends meet?

 

Stuff like this gives me suspicions i had that the total opposite of taking back control will come... the control will be put into the hands of crap bosses exploiting workers for profit, of large companies importing junk due to de regulation and passing the cost on to consumers, supermarkets selling gm modified shit while exporters take advantage of a weak pound.

 

No actual benefit will come to any normal person in the street except maybe seeing a couple less Poles but its not even like that has had any effect whatsoever on my life, i can still go to the doctors fine, its not stopped my wages or getting a job and those that are here are here, theyre not going anywhere.

 

Theres barely any immigration from eu where i live and people still use it as a big reason? Its not affecting my life.

 

I get a blue passport too which is totally irrelevant.

 

[Rogstanley]

6 hours ago, Donut said:

Is there a real genuine possibility of losing employment rights?

 

I know there was a promise they would stay but ive seen plans to scrap them.

 

fvck off am i being forced to work 70 hours a week and lose my sick pay and holiday pay. Women losing maternity rights.

 

Newspapers that are pro brexit are talking this up like extending working weeks is progress. Its progress back to the stone age.

 

Im lucky im doing ok. But how about just pay people who work the low paid jobs a decent wage so they dont need to work 60 or 70 hours to make ends meet?

 

Stuff like this gives me suspicions i had that the total opposite of taking back control will come... the control will be put into the hands of crap bosses exploiting workers for profit, of large companies importing junk due to de regulation and passing the cost on to consumers, supermarkets selling gm modified shit while exporters take advantage of a weak pound.

 

No actual benefit will come to any normal person in the street except maybe seeing a couple less Poles but its not even like that has had any effect whatsoever on my life, i can still go to the doctors fine, its not stopped my wages or getting a job and those that are here are here, theyre not going anywhere.

 

Theres barely any immigration from eu where i live and people still use it as a big reason? Its not affecting my life.

 

I get a blue passport too which is totally irrelevant.

 

The great lie of brexit is that “taking back control” just means transferring power from one group of politicians to another. The new group of politicians may very well be worse than the last. If it’s the Tories in their current guise then I think it’s all but guaranteed that they will be worse than the last.

 

The usual brexiter retort of “we can vote them out” works in theory but not in practice for two reasons: firstly that many people are very tribal in who they vote for and will never switch (making a mockery of the idea of brexit for democracy in the first place); and secondly because there are plenty of people who actually like seeing ordinary people screwed over, because they’re under the impression that when the government gets rich they’ll definitely share out the wealth with all their voters, even though decades of history show the Tories are only intersted in further enriching the elite at the expense of the masses.

 

We’ve already had an unprecendented eight years of real terms pay cuts, and the bad stuff is only just beginning. 

[Webbo]

6 hours ago, Donut said:

Is there a real genuine possibility of losing employment rights?

 

I know there was a promise they would stay but ive seen plans to scrap them.

 

fvck off am i being forced to work 70 hours a week and lose my sick pay and holiday pay. Women losing maternity rights.

 

Newspapers that are pro brexit are talking this up like extending working weeks is progress. Its progress back to the stone age.

 

Im lucky im doing ok. But how about just pay people who work the low paid jobs a decent wage so they dont need to work 60 or 70 hours to make ends meet?

 

Stuff like this gives me suspicions i had that the total opposite of taking back control will come... the control will be put into the hands of crap bosses exploiting workers for profit, of large companies importing junk due to de regulation and passing the cost on to consumers, supermarkets selling gm modified shit while exporters take advantage of a weak pound.

 

No actual benefit will come to any normal person in the street except maybe seeing a couple less Poles but its not even like that has had any effect whatsoever on my life, i can still go to the doctors fine, its not stopped my wages or getting a job and those that are here are here, theyre not going anywhere.

 

Theres barely any immigration from eu where i live and people still use it as a big reason? Its not affecting my life.

 

I get a blue passport too which is totally irrelevant.

 

Atm the EU controls those things and they're not accountable to the electorate. They could change the rules and there's nothing you can do about it. If our govt changes employment rights they will have to face the electorate. Its called democracy, its what we voted for.

[Donut]

54 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Atm the EU controls those things and they're not accountable to the electorate. They could change the rules and there's nothing you can do about it. If our govt changes employment rights they will have to face the electorate. Its called democracy, its what we voted for.

You can do something about it like you can now. 

 

You can CHOOSE to opt out of the working time directive if you WANT to work loads of hours. If you dont you have rights, as well as sick pay and other protections.

 

If the conservatives stop this your choice is TAKEN AWAY so your boss can do what they like with your work contract.

 

If youre seriously trying to say you voted brexit in the name of democracy so you could lose all your employment rights at work youre either lying, a boss looking forward to exploiting people for your own gain, or an absolute fool.

 

[BlueSi13]

7 hours ago, Donut said:

Is there a real genuine possibility of losing employment rights?

 

I know there was a promise they would stay but ive seen plans to scrap them.

 

fvck off am i being forced to work 70 hours a week and lose my sick pay and holiday pay. Women losing maternity rights.

 

Newspapers that are pro brexit are talking this up like extending working weeks is progress. Its progress back to the stone age.

 

Im lucky im doing ok. But how about just pay people who work the low paid jobs a decent wage so they dont need to work 60 or 70 hours to make ends meet?

 

Stuff like this gives me suspicions i had that the total opposite of taking back control will come... the control will be put into the hands of crap bosses exploiting workers for profit, of large companies importing junk due to de regulation and passing the cost on to consumers, supermarkets selling gm modified shit while exporters take advantage of a weak pound.

 

No actual benefit will come to any normal person in the street except maybe seeing a couple less Poles but its not even like that has had any effect whatsoever on my life, i can still go to the doctors fine, its not stopped my wages or getting a job and those that are here are here, theyre not going anywhere.

 

Theres barely any immigration from eu where i live and people still use it as a big reason? Its not affecting my life.

 

I get a blue passport too which is totally irrelevant.

 

Can you share some links that show where that is genuinely being planned by the government? 

 

As Webbo says previously, the beauty of Brexit is that a government would have to put this to the people with 100% accountability.  IMO any party that seriously proposes that would get absolutely decimated at a General Election.

[Donut]

1 minute ago, BlueSi13 said:

Can you share some links that show where that is genuinely being planned by the government? 

 

As Webbo says previously, the beauty of Brexit is that a government would have to put this to the people with 100% accountability.  IMO any party that seriously proposes that would get absolutely decimated at a General Election.

Google liam fox eu working directives. Every paper has reported on it. 

 

The sun were even hailing it as brilliant.

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

17 minutes ago, BlueSi13 said:

Can you share some links that show where that is genuinely being planned by the government? 

 

As Webbo says previously, the beauty of Brexit is that a government would have to put this to the people with 100% accountability.  IMO any party that seriously proposes that would get absolutely decimated at a General Election.

My first reaction to Brexit was that for this reason it cannot be a bad thing.  But i'm worried this might be slightly naive and will just make us susceptible to WTO and TTIP structures and we will end up being a cog in an even bigger machine

[Carl the Llama]

The take back control myth was debunked numerous times in the pre-ref thread.  Trouble is some people are so paranoid about the EU that they wouldn't listen then and they won't listen now or ever accept they may have been rash.  Oddly they don't share that paranoia about a British government continuously making decisions that negatively impact immigration rates (chose not to enact the 3 months to get a job or you're out rule), the NHS (allowing funding to drop in real terms and employment to plummet), workers' rights (zero hour contracts which might serve a purpose for some but are by and large used by exploitative employers) and so on because "we can vote them out".  That's not stopped them being shit for the country but still these people continue to offer their blind loyalty while the entity in Brussels which if anything has served as a safeguard for us in the grand scheme of things (the fishing quotas issue is about the only legitimate complaint I can think of) is treated with irrational suspicion and contempt.