Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Carl the Llama]

Not to mention the fallacy of control when your choice at the polling booth is essentially between 2 parties in dire straights.

[deep blue]

2 hours ago, Webbo said:

Atm the EU controls those things and they're not accountable to the electorate. They could change the rules and there's nothing you can do about it. If our govt changes employment rights they will have to face the electorate. Its called democracy, its what we voted for.

How can you possibly say it's what "we" voted for. The vote was simply on whether we stayed in the EU or not. You have no idea which of the particular implications of leaving the EU had the most sway in voters' intentions.

[Izzy]

2 hours ago, Rogstanley said:

The great lie of brexit is that “taking back control” just means transferring power from one group of politicians to another. The new group of politicians may very well be worse than the last. If it’s the Tories in their current guise then I think it’s all but guaranteed that they will be worse than the last.

 

The usual brexiter retort of “we can vote them out” works in theory but not in practice for two reasons: firstly that many people are very tribal in who they vote for and will never switch (making a mockery of the idea of brexit for democracy in the first place); and secondly because there are plenty of people who actually like seeing ordinary people screwed over, because they’re under the impression that when the government gets rich they’ll definitely share out the wealth with all their voters, even though decades of history show the Tories are only intersted in further enriching the elite at the expense of the masses.

 

We’ve already had an unprecendented eight years of real terms pay cuts, and the bad stuff is only just beginning. 

I think you've got a very dark and cynical view on people if you believe this to be the case.

 

Not once in all my years have I had a conversation with anyone (especially Tory voters) who've said they actually 'like' to see ordinary people screwed over. And even if they wouldn't admit it in public, I don't believe people are that nasty and vindictive that they want to see others suffer. Maybe I'm being naive again but that's a pretty shitty way to live your life and I'd like to believe most people are better than that.

 

I'm certainly not under the impression that if the government ever 'get rich' then they'll share the wealth with me or other Tory voters and not with Labour voters. How does that work in practical terms?

 

If you're just talking about the elite then fine, I take your point to a certain extent. But I think it's unfair to use the phrase 'plenty of people' when your only really talking about a select few.

 

We're not all cvnts you know...

 

[Fox Ulike]

9 hours ago, Donut said:

Is there a real genuine possibility of losing employment rights?

 

I know there was a promise they would stay but ive seen plans to scrap them.

 

fvck off am i being forced to work 70 hours a week and lose my sick pay and holiday pay. Women losing maternity rights.

 

Newspapers that are pro brexit are talking this up like extending working weeks is progress. Its progress back to the stone age.

 

Im lucky im doing ok. But how about just pay people who work the low paid jobs a decent wage so they dont need to work 60 or 70 hours to make ends meet?

 

Stuff like this gives me suspicions i had that the total opposite of taking back control will come... the control will be put into the hands of crap bosses exploiting workers for profit, of large companies importing junk due to de regulation and passing the cost on to consumers, supermarkets selling gm modified shit while exporters take advantage of a weak pound.

 

No actual benefit will come to any normal person in the street except maybe seeing a couple less Poles but its not even like that has had any effect whatsoever on my life, i can still go to the doctors fine, its not stopped my wages or getting a job and those that are here are here, theyre not going anywhere.

 

Theres barely any immigration from eu where i live and people still use it as a big reason? Its not affecting my life.

 

I get a blue passport too which is totally irrelevant.

 

 

I doubt this will happen.

 

It’s true that this is more likely to happen outside of the EU than within it. But I think it’s far-fetched that the UK Government will ditch Workers’ Rights once they have they the power to do so.

 

However, having said that, if you'd have told me after the referendum that it less than two years I’d now be trying to tell people not to trust  articles containing phrases like “the thought police” and “Opponents must be demonised and silenced” then I’ve had told you that was far-fetched too. Yet here we are.

 

You’re right though about lack of benefit. For anyone who has to work for a living, there’s absolutely zero benefit in removing this outer layer of protection (the EU) , and allowing any future UK  Government the possibility of voting down workers’ rights, or any other rights for that matter.

 

It’s gone from being “£350m to the NHS” to “You probably won’t have to work a 70 hour week”. Yay!

[Wymsey]

What's the point in a second EU in/out referendum if the outcome (quite presume it would) may be the same as the first one?..

[Fox Ulike]

3 minutes ago, Wymeswold fox said:

What's the point in a second EU in/out referendum if the outcome (quite presume it would) may be the same as the first one?..

 

For me, I find it frustrating that there was so little knowledge and information available in June 2016 about what leaving the EU would mean.

 

That’s not the case now.

 

We know the risks we’re taking, we know the costs, we know the benefits. Let’s decide if we actually want to do it. If we had a second referendum, and Leave won again, then I would stop whining about it.

[Wymsey]

11 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

 

For me, I find it frustrating that there was so little knowledge and information available in June 2016 about what leaving the EU would mean.

 

That’s not the case now.

 

We know the risks we’re taking, we know the costs, we know the benefits. Let’s decide if we actually want to do it. If we had a second referendum, and Leave won again, then I would stop whining about it.

What I think about it is as Brexit negotiations have already started anyway (not sure for how long?), if a second referendum vote states that the poll result was a majority 'remain' preference - where would it leave the situation? As I'd imagine that just abandoning the Brexit negotiation process with the European Council or whoever it is due to this event happening would give others the impression that Britain is pulling the plug on it without the consequences of doing such a thing.

Edited 22 February 2018 by Wymeswold fox

[Donut]

5 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

 

For me, I find it frustrating that there was so little knowledge and information available in June 2016 about what leaving the EU would mean.

 

That’s not the case now.

 

We know the risks we’re taking, we know the costs, we know the benefits. Let’s decide if we actually want to do it. If we had a second referendum, and Leave won again, then I would stop whining about it.

Exactly.

 

Call me naive but i dont think people had many facts regarding visa's, plans for employment rights, the good friday agreement hard or soft border, trading arrangements with eu or a host of other factors that have only come to light after people researched them further.

 

On some issues people have been blatantly misled and misinformed about the role of the eu and our situation after brexit.

 

Some wont care and will go with the sovreignty got our country back stuff, its up to them, but others will realise pretty quickly theyre going to be worse off after all this and im sure theyd like the right to accept or reject the terms.

 

 

[Rogstanley]

1 hour ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I think you've got a very dark and cynical view on people if you believe this to be the case.

 

Not once in all my years have I had a conversation with anyone (especially Tory voters) who've said they actually 'like' to see ordinary people screwed over. And even if they wouldn't admit it in public, I don't believe people are that nasty and vindictive that they want to see others suffer. Maybe I'm being naive again but that's a pretty shitty way to live your life and I'd like to believe most people are better than that.

 

I'm certainly not under the impression that if the government ever 'get rich' then they'll share the wealth with me or other Tory voters and not with Labour voters. How does that work in practical terms?

 

If you're just talking about the elite then fine, I take your point to a certain extent. But I think it's unfair to use the phrase 'plenty of people' when your only really talking about a select few.

 

We're not all cvnts you know...

 

Maybe for "liking" seeing ordinary screwed over you could substitute "are ok with it", because to them it serves some greater purpose. Witness people being fine with cuts to disabled benefits, cuts to public sector pay, death of the unions, an eight year decline in real pay and living standards and so on. 

 

The greater purpose seems mainly to be putting more money into the government's and big businesses pocket, under the assumption that it'll pay off in some way further down the line. As for how that's going to happen - you tell me! Businesses are already making record profits and that is clearly not translating into higher wages, so I'm nonplussed as to how all this austerity is going to benefit any ordinary person either short term or long. Yet plenty of people support it.

[BlueSi13]

2 hours ago, Donut said:

Google liam fox eu working directives. Every paper has reported on it. 

 

The sun were even hailing it as brilliant.

Found some articles related to it.  From what I can gather some MP's are arguing that scraping the WTD will allow some employees to voluntarily work longer than the 48 hours a week as a means of boosting income.

 

Now of course the devil will be in the detail but I see absolutely no evidence that the government is planning to force people to almost double their working week as well as remove holiday, sick and maternity pay.

 

If they did propose that, how many seats do you think they'll win in 2022?  Let's be realistic here.

 

Cannot help but feel you're towing the Project Fear party line on this one.

[Donut]

6 minutes ago, BlueSi13 said:

Found some articles related to it.  From what I can gather some MP's are arguing that scraping the WTD will allow some employees to voluntarily work longer than the 48 hours a week as a means of boosting income.

 

Now of course the devil will be in the detail but I see absolutely no evidence that the government is planning to force people to almost double their working week as well as remove holiday, sick and maternity pay.

 

If they did propose that, how many seats do you think they'll win in 2022?  Let's be realistic here.

 

Cannot help but feel you're towing the Project Fear party line on this one.

But employees can do this anyway, under EU law....they have an opt out.

 

Its their plan to take the opt out away and have an open chequebook, that is the plan.

 

The current system works perfectly and gives people rights and choices. Taking away statutory rights would benefit business owners but severly affect millions of workers.

 

As i said earlier the sun thinks this is brilliant progress. It for me is an example of the misrepresentation of EU law.

 

Its certainly not the "taking back control" people wanted.

 

[theessexfox]

University lecturers began the first of 14 days of strikes today, including here in Cambridge. My first lecture was on and well-attended but the second was cancelled.

[Strokes]

17 minutes ago, Donut said:

But employees can do this anyway, under EU law....they have an opt out.

 

Its their plan to take the opt out away and have an open chequebook, that is the plan.

 

The current system works perfectly and gives people rights and choices. Taking away statutory rights would benefit business owners but severly affect millions of workers.

 

As i said earlier the sun thinks this is brilliant progress. It for me is an example of the misrepresentation of EU law.

 

Its certainly not the "taking back control" people wanted.

 

You’ve got something wrong, you are automatically opted in to the directive, you opt out of the right to be restricted to 45hrs. If they took away the opt out nobody could work more than 45hrs ever. That would make my job impossible.

Edited 22 February 2018 by Strokes

[Donut]

13 minutes ago, Strokes said:

You’ve got it wrong, you are automatically opted in to the directive, you opt out of the right to be restricted to 45hrs. If they took away the opt out nobody could work more than 45hrs ever. That would make my job impossible.

Yes but its a CHOICE to opt out of the directive.

 

Under the proposals your choice is taken away. Your boss decides how many hours you do, you have no say. 

 

Plus as mentionned before you lose access to your other eu employment rights.

 

The restriction is also 48 not 45 hours and whether you can finish your work in that amount of time or not is irrelevant and an issue for you and your company as to why you consistently cant.

 

If you choose to work more than 48 hours by opting out great. It shouldnt be an obligation and the employment rights we have now should stay

[Guest MattP]

Only went away for a week.....

 

Glad Brendan Cox was finally outed as a pervert, this was an open secret in Westminster for years, shame obviously given what happened to him but it was frustrating watching him being treated as a saint just because he wife was killed.

 

For what it's worth on Corbyn, I'm sure he does have questions to answer but again with him I'd put it down to him being naive rather sinister, not something that worries me as this is a guy who didnt even know Scotland has a different legal system despite being in parliament for 30 years, if you wanted concrete information on anything he'd be the last man I'd be looking to give it to me.

 

His attack on the press in that video was the most ridiculous thing I've seen and as @Kopfkino said it only made it look like he had something to hide, accuse me of being a communist and warn the press that change is coming, very smart Jezza - you would have sounded and looked less like a communist had you done that video wearing a soppy hat and waving a hammer and sickle. I think the pressure might be starting to show on him, finally.

 

My favourite theory at the minute is that Jeremy Corbyn is a MI5 agent who infiltrated the Labour party in the 70's, it's got completely out of hand and now he hasn't got a clue how to get himself out of it.

[Wymsey]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Only went away for a week.....

 

Glad Brendan Cox was finally outed as a pervert, this was an open secret in Westminster for years, shame obviously given what happened to him but it was frustrating watching him being treated as a saint just because he wife was killed.

 

For what it's worth on Corbyn, I'm sure he does have questions to answer but again with him I'd put it down to him being naive rather sinister, not something that worries me as this is a guy who didnt even know Scotland has a different legal system despite being in parliament for 30 years, if you wanted concrete information on anything he'd be the last man I'd be looking to give it to me.

 

His attack on the press in that video was the most ridiculous thing I've seen and as @Kopfkino said it only made it look like he had something to hide, accuse me of being a communist and warn the press that change is coming, very smart Jezza - you would have sounded and looked less like a communist had you done that video wearing a soppy hat and waving a hammer and sickle. I think the pressure might be starting to show on him, finally.

 

My favourite theory at the minute is that Jeremy Corbyn is a MI5 agent who infiltrated the Labour party in the 70's, it's got completely out of hand and now he hasn't got a clue how to get himself out of it.

Where did you go, or was it just work?

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Wymeswold fox said:

Where did you go, or was it just work?

Been extremely busy so stayed off online, if affects my work being on here far too much.

 

I'm nearly on 30,000 posts now and I can't help but think to myself I could have used this time far more productively.

Edited 22 February 2018 by MattP

[Strokes]

22 minutes ago, Donut said:

Yes but its a CHOICE to opt out of the directive.

 

Under the proposals your choice is taken away. Your boss decides how many hours you do, you have no say. 

 

Plus as mentionned before you lose access to your other eu employment rights.

 

The restriction is also 48 not 45 hours and whether you can finish your work in that amount of time or not is irrelevant and an issue for you and your company as to why you consistently cant.

 

If you choose to work more than 48 hours by opting out great. It shouldnt be an obligation and the employment rights we have now should stay

There are no proposals yet, certainly nothing formal. And by the time anything comes into force we will be due another general election, so if you don’t like it you can vote against them. If the EU enforce something you don’t like, how can you use democracy to change it?

[Donut]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

There are no proposals yet, certainly nothing formal. And by the time anything comes into force we will be due another general election, so if you don’t like it you can vote against them. If the EU enforce something you don’t like, how can you use democracy to change it?

Can you name me a few eu laws that directly affect you that youd like to change?

[Rogstanley]

Large downward revision to growth figures puts UK rock bottom of the league once again

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43154467

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Donut said:

Can you name me a few eu laws that directly affect you that youd like to change?

FOM, VAT on energy. Why do things have to directly affect me either?

[Izzy]

4 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Large downward revision to growth figures puts UK rock bottom of the league once again

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43154467

You forgot to mention the positive stuff at the end of the article and the ‘encouraging signs’ 

[Rogstanley]

3 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

You forgot to mention the positive stuff at the end of the article and the ‘encouraging signs’ 

Fair point.

 

The encouraging signs are that while wages are still falling they are falling marginally more slowly than expected and while unemployment is rising it is still quite low when including people on ZHC and the like. Productivity is up slightly but is still well below the g7 average. 

 

 

[Izzy]

1 minute ago, Rogstanley said:

Fair point.

 

The encouraging signs are that while wages are still falling they are falling marginally more slowly than expected and while unemployment is rising it is still quite low when including people on ZHC and the like. Productivity is up slightly but is still well below the g7 average. 

 

 

I’ve got to hand it to you Rog.

 

You’re the master at taking ‘encouraging signs’ and still making everything sound really shit 

[UpTheLeagueFox]

5 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I’ve got to hand it to you Rog.

You’re the master at taking ‘encouraging signs’ and still making everything sound really shit 

The Left are not always known for their joyous, happy views on life.