Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

Sorry I should have commented on the original post. I’m just making a poor attempt at keeping out of this thread.

 

I’m just pointing out critics, sceptics and deniers are/have being silenced. I wouldn’t put myself in either category (possibly sceptic) but it does happen. Maybe it’s not as fierce as that opinion piece suggests but it does happen.

It was in no way meant as any sort of attack on you, or science in particular, more so a defence that simply deleting comments or not publishing things from people who might have interesting opposing beliefs is counter productive. 

4

No problem at all.

 

On the bolded we most certainly agree - how science advances is by through theories changing over time, and not allowing a platform for that to happen is counterproductive both from a diplomatic standpoint and by stymying the process itself.

 

This may well be happening in the wider world, but in the research community it is most certainly not and it would take a lot more evidence from those like Ms Philips to convince me that it was, because everyone involved in it knows that the above paragraph is true.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

No problem at all.

 

On the bolded we most certainly agree - how science advances is by through theories changing over time, and not allowing a platform for that to happen is counterproductive both from a diplomatic standpoint and by stymying the process itself.

 

This may well be happening in the wider world, but in the research community it is most certainly not and it would take a lot more evidence from those like Ms Philips to convince me that it was, because everyone involved in it knows that the above paragraph is true.

I wouldn’t have a clue what is going on in the research community and I have no reason to doubt you on it.

 

I wish we could move on from the global warming and just promote the positives of clean energy. I think the debate over climate change actually hinders other positive things that it could bring. 

[Sharpe's Fox]

 

 

A B S O L U T E

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[Rogstanley]

8 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

 

 

A B S O L U T E

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He’s fast becoming the most charismatic politician of our age.

 

Much more of that and he’ll wipe the floor with old farty farty Maybot, the boring old mingrat.

Edited 20 February 2018 by Rogstanley

[Sharpe's Fox]

Just now, Rogstanley said:

 

 

He’s fast becoming the most charismatic politician of our age.

 

Much more of that and he’ll wipe the floor with old farty farty Maybot, the boring old mingrat.

He’s a modern Mandela mate

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

I wouldn’t have a clue what is going on in the research community and I have no reason to doubt you on it.

 

I wish we could move on from the global warming and just promote the positives of clean energy. I think the debate over climate change actually hinders other positive things that it could bring. 

 

Yeah, this is true too. Again, I think that those who make money from the status quo have done a pretty good job of conflating and obfuscating the two in the eyes of the wider public in order to block meaningful action being taken that would make them lose money and power.

[Izzy]

5 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

 

A B S O L U T E

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[Sharpe's Fox]

@Izzy Muzzett calls someone else a looney stones glass houses ect

[Izzy]

4 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

@Izzy Muzzett calls someone else a looney stones glass houses ect

But I know I'm not fit to run the country 

[ajthefox]

19 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

 

 

He’s fast becoming the most charismatic politician of our age.

 

Much more of that and he’ll wipe the floor with old farty farty Maybot, the boring old mingrat.

 Really..?

 

There's something I like about Corbyn but that sounds like delusional fanboy nonsense. He's clearly getting better (or being advised better) for press stuff but that video is a load of empty rhetoric and his overly emotive faces are dodgy as fvck.

 

Corbyn gained a lot up to the election against a Tory leader widely considered to be shite but has completely and utterly failed to build on it at all, and that's in spite of the impending brexit which you are adamant is going to be an absolute disaster.

 

I'm no fan of this government but from where I'm sitting Labour are just sitting around with their thumbs up their arses happy just to be involved.

They should be rinsing May, Davis, Boris & co.

Edited 20 February 2018 by ajthefox

[Rogstanley]

4 minutes ago, ajthefox said:

 Really..?

 

There's something I like about Corbyn but that sounds like delusional fanboy nonsense. He's clearly getting better (or being advised better) for press stuff but that video is a load of empty rhetoric and his overly emotive faces are dodgy as fvck.

 

Corbyn gained a lot up to the election against a Tory leader widely considered to be shite but has completely and utterly failed to build on it at all, and that's in spite of the impending brexit which you are adamant is going to be an absolute disaster.

 

I'm no fan of this government but from where I'm sitting Labour look like they're happy just sitting around with their thumbs up their arses.

It’s a great response to the latest desperate gutter press smear campaign. He’s basically laughing it off with a bit of cheeky humour. Can you imagine that wonky old drone May ever being composed and human enough to do that? I don’t think I’ve ever seen May look remotely comfortable in any situation, except perhaps when she was in the safety of her police escort when visiting Grenfell. 

[Kopfkino]

x days on and still he refuses to actually deny he met with Czech officials nor has he explained why he did so. Instead he's gone on the attack, a sure fire way to know someone is afraid of the truth. Still it beats him blatantly lying about Iran.

 

Just this week McDonnell has said PFI contracts could be nationalised without compensation and Corbyn has told the press 'change is coming' if they say stuff he doesn't like (conveniently always the former KGB director billionaire that owns a paper that supports him). And this is added to previous calls to requisition property, for parliament to decide the value of shares, and for government to be able to purchase land at prices it wants. 

 

If people really want such an ideologically driven government full of Stalin-sympathisers, Trotskyists, class war proponents, people calling for direct action against the opposition, people that think its a shame the Berlin Wall fell, people calling for solidarity with North Korea, people with connections to parties that approvingly publish pictures of hospitalised policemen, then that is fine, each to their own. But please stop pretending this is some kind of Scandinavian social democracy. It's embarrassing  

[DJ Barry Hammond]

2 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

x days on and still he refuses to actually deny he met with Czech officials nor has he explained why he did so. Instead he's gone on the attack, a sure fire way to know someone is afraid of the truth. Still it beats him blatantly lying about Iran.

 

Just this week McDonnell has said PFI contracts could be nationalised without compensation and Corbyn has told the press 'change is coming' if they say stuff he doesn't like (conveniently always the former KGB director billionaire that owns a paper that supports him). And this is added to previous calls to requisition property, for parliament to decide the value of shares, and for government to be able to purchase land at prices it wants. 

 

If people really want such an ideologically driven government full of Stalin-sympathisers, Trotskyists, class war proponents, people calling for direct action against the opposition, people that think its a shame the Berlin Wall fell, people calling for solidarity with North Korea, people with connections to parties that approvingly publish pictures of hospitalised policemen, then that is fine, each to their own. But please stop pretending this is some kind of Scandinavian social democracy. It's embarrassing  

 

Denying the reports gives by association the reports a notion of creditability. 

 

He’s damn right to focus on ridiculing rather than flat deny. There’s another leader somewhere that does similar to great effect. 

 

Must admit, I haven’t paid much attention to the reports because they’re so ridiculous. I’m not sure how you would fact check a source like this if you were a reporter, but I’ve yet to see much firm evidence on what’s I have read that this Czech guy is who he says he is and things like that. 

 

The further reports, mentioning “what Thatcher had for breakfast” don’t do anything to make something that happened 40 odd years ago anymore believable.

[Buce]

8 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

x days on and still he refuses to actually deny he met with Czech officials nor has he explained why he did so. Instead he's gone on the attack, a sure fire way to know someone is afraid of the truth. Still it beats him blatantly lying about Iran.

 

Just this week McDonnell has said PFI contracts could be nationalised without compensation and Corbyn has told the press 'change is coming' if they say stuff he doesn't like (conveniently always the former KGB director billionaire that owns a paper that supports him). And this is added to previous calls to requisition property, for parliament to decide the value of shares, and for government to be able to purchase land at prices it wants. 

 

If people really want such an ideologically driven government full of Stalin-sympathisers, Trotskyists, class war proponents, people calling for direct action against the opposition, people that think its a shame the Berlin Wall fell, people calling for solidarity with North Korea, people with connections to parties that approvingly publish pictures of hospitalised policemen, then that is fine, each to their own. But please stop pretending this is some kind of Scandinavian social democracy. It's embarrassing  

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/20/no-evidence-corbyn-was-spy-for-czechoslovakia-say-intelligence-experts

 

‘No evidence Corbyn was a spy’

 

’A classic smear campaign’ say Intelligence experts. 

 

Try reading something that isn’t the Sun. 

 

 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

15 hours ago, Webbo said:

Brexit bashing is an attempt to stifle free speech
melanie phillips

Intellectuals who champion life outside the EU are the latest victims of the thought police

Nearly 40 prominent economists, lawyers, philosophers, historians, scientists and policy experts have formed a “Brains for Brexit” campaign to counter claims that Leave voters are idiots and challenge the intellectual distortions in the argument. Yet some academics say they are too frightened of career-ending repercussions to join the group. Similar anxieties have been expressed by Artists 4 Brexit, a group of creatives and performers who think the arts will thrive outside the EU. They fear that if they “come out” they’ll be dropped from commissions or galleries.

What views are so dangerous that Brexit supporters are too frightened to express them and feel the need to band together for protection if they do? Well, it’s their rabid support for democratic national sovereignty and their demented belief that global engagement is more progressive than regional protectionism. As a result they are deemed to be racists, xenophobes, nativists, jingoists, Nazis and, of course, stunted imbeciles.

These aren’t just insults deployed to smear Brexit supporters and shut down debate. Among many Remainers, there’s a deep belief they are true. That’s because of the “progressive” orthodoxy that British national identity is racist and discriminatory due to its discrete historic culture which by definition outsiders don’t share.

In addition, the western nation itself is deemed innately bad because it’s based on colonialism and oppression. So upholding British or western identity leads to nationalism, fascism and war. British or other western national sovereignty must therefore be trumped by transnational institutions and laws such as the UN, the EU and international human rights. These are deemed to be virtuous since they derive from utopian ideals of global harmony and the brotherhood of man. Opponents must be demonised and silenced for the good of humanity.

 

Claims by Brexit supporters that their deepest concern is to restore democratic control over British laws and policies are dismissed as absurd by Remainers because they don’t value democratic sovereignty. Many despise it. That’s why they want to remain in the EU. And why they are determined that Brexit be stopped.

There are many issues other than EU membership where dissent is simply not tolerated. The doctrine of multiculturalism holds that all cultures have equal value. As a result, when the then head of the Commission for Racial Equality, Trevor Phillips, observed that multicultural Britain was “sleepwalking to segregation” he was, despite his black Guyanese ancestry, denounced as a racist.

Years ago, I was invited to a meeting at an Italian villa to discuss a topic of concern to scientists of different disciplines. Participants attended on condition of the utmost secrecy. If their presence was revealed, they said, their academic and scientific research would instantly be stopped.

The forbidden topic was the theory of “intelligent design”, or ID. This holds that the “irreducible complexity” in the evolution of life could only have been brought about by some kind of intelligent agency. That doesn’t rule out evolution through variation or diversification, only in the creation of new complex genetic information.

From this, proponents conclude from the study of science that there are limits to scientific knowledge. For many scientists that is a forbidden idea. So instead of disputing the theory with evidence, they smear and intimidate proponents. The method of character assassination is falsely to conflate ID with creationism, the theory that the earth was created under 10,000 years ago and which contravenes the consensus from radiometric age-dating that the earth is billions of years old.

As a result, ID advocates have had their reputations trashed and careers jeopardised. A similar fate has been meted out to those sceptical of man-made global warming theory. Scores of scientists, some of them among the most eminent in their field, have said it’s unsupported by the evidence, which has been regularly misrepresented or distorted. Such sceptics have been compared to Holocaust deniers and targeted for calls that they be jailed, subjected to aversion therapy or drowned.

Dr Richard Lindzen, a former professor of meteorology at MIT and prominent sceptic, says many scientists toe the global warming line either because they feel terrorised or because they won’t get grant funding if they don’t do so.

All these orthodoxies are linked by a common belief that they are routes to utopia. Opposing intelligent design supposedly destroys irrationality. Supporting man-made global warming theory will save the planet. Multiculturalism will excise prejudice from the human heart.

Utopia, however, is unattainable. That fact must be suppressed. So such ideologies must be enforced by coercion and heretics punished.

Brexit may not have been about these specific issues. It was, however, the first ever push-back against a utopian world view that not only rode roughshod over people’s legitimate aspirations and values but smeared and demeaned them.

It gave the lie to the claim that, since this orthodoxy embodied reason and decency, only a few cranks and bigots would oppose it. The millions who voted for Brexit demonstrated that the mainstream was somewhere else altogether.

Which is why the reaction is so extreme. For this isn’t just about membership of the EU. It’s about resisting the abuse of cultural power. That’s why the battle over Brexit is now a fight to the death.

 

 

 

 

Seems a fair assessment to me.

There is definitely something in this.  I agree that many people in favour of Brexit are put down too dismissively by Remainers

 

The problem is that Brexit does/can encompass so many things that its very fertile ground for argument

 

I still think the referendum itself was a bad idea (not Brexit, but the referendum) because it was bound to cause a great rift.  It feels like instead of thinking about specific problems and how to combat them, we are instead just thinking about Brexit, a made up word which can contain an endless number of issues to endlessly debate and about which people will never agree.

 

I dont mean this to be a veiled dig at Brexit btw.  I actually think there are probably positives that could theoretically come out of leaving the EU, I am just sceptical that they will.

 

 

[Steven]

10 hours ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

A B S O L U T E

   O

   Y

A B S O L U T E

          U

          T

 

          O

          F

 

          T

          O

          U

          C

          H

[Fox Ulike]

15 hours ago, Webbo said:

Brexit bashing is an attempt to stifle free speech
melanie phillips

Intellectuals who champion life outside the EU are the latest victims of the thought police

Nearly 40 prominent economists, lawyers, philosophers, historians, scientists and policy experts have formed a “Brains for Brexit” campaign to counter claims that Leave voters are idiots and challenge the intellectual distortions in the argument. Yet some academics say they are too frightened of career-ending repercussions to join the group. Similar anxieties have been expressed by Artists 4 Brexit, a group of creatives and performers who think the arts will thrive outside the EU. They fear that if they “come out” they’ll be dropped from commissions or galleries.

What views are so dangerous that Brexit supporters are too frightened to express them and feel the need to band together for protection if they do? Well, it’s their rabid support for democratic national sovereignty and their demented belief that global engagement is more progressive than regional protectionism. As a result they are deemed to be racists, xenophobes, nativists, jingoists, Nazis and, of course, stunted imbeciles.

These aren’t just insults deployed to smear Brexit supporters and shut down debate. Among many Remainers, there’s a deep belief they are true. That’s because of the “progressive” orthodoxy that British national identity is racist and discriminatory due to its discrete historic culture which by definition outsiders don’t share.

In addition, the western nation itself is deemed innately bad because it’s based on colonialism and oppression. So upholding British or western identity leads to nationalism, fascism and war. British or other western national sovereignty must therefore be trumped by transnational institutions and laws such as the UN, the EU and international human rights. These are deemed to be virtuous since they derive from utopian ideals of global harmony and the brotherhood of man. Opponents must be demonised and silenced for the good of humanity.

 

Claims by Brexit supporters that their deepest concern is to restore democratic control over British laws and policies are dismissed as absurd by Remainers because they don’t value democratic sovereignty. Many despise it. That’s why they want to remain in the EU. And why they are determined that Brexit be stopped.

There are many issues other than EU membership where dissent is simply not tolerated. The doctrine of multiculturalism holds that all cultures have equal value. As a result, when the then head of the Commission for Racial Equality, Trevor Phillips, observed that multicultural Britain was “sleepwalking to segregation” he was, despite his black Guyanese ancestry, denounced as a racist.

Years ago, I was invited to a meeting at an Italian villa to discuss a topic of concern to scientists of different disciplines. Participants attended on condition of the utmost secrecy. If their presence was revealed, they said, their academic and scientific research would instantly be stopped.

The forbidden topic was the theory of “intelligent design”, or ID. This holds that the “irreducible complexity” in the evolution of life could only have been brought about by some kind of intelligent agency. That doesn’t rule out evolution through variation or diversification, only in the creation of new complex genetic information.

From this, proponents conclude from the study of science that there are limits to scientific knowledge. For many scientists that is a forbidden idea. So instead of disputing the theory with evidence, they smear and intimidate proponents. The method of character assassination is falsely to conflate ID with creationism, the theory that the earth was created under 10,000 years ago and which contravenes the consensus from radiometric age-dating that the earth is billions of years old.

As a result, ID advocates have had their reputations trashed and careers jeopardised. A similar fate has been meted out to those sceptical of man-made global warming theory. Scores of scientists, some of them among the most eminent in their field, have said it’s unsupported by the evidence, which has been regularly misrepresented or distorted. Such sceptics have been compared to Holocaust deniers and targeted for calls that they be jailed, subjected to aversion therapy or drowned.

Dr Richard Lindzen, a former professor of meteorology at MIT and prominent sceptic, says many scientists toe the global warming line either because they feel terrorised or because they won’t get grant funding if they don’t do so.

All these orthodoxies are linked by a common belief that they are routes to utopia. Opposing intelligent design supposedly destroys irrationality. Supporting man-made global warming theory will save the planet. Multiculturalism will excise prejudice from the human heart.

Utopia, however, is unattainable. That fact must be suppressed. So such ideologies must be enforced by coercion and heretics punished.

Brexit may not have been about these specific issues. It was, however, the first ever push-back against a utopian world view that not only rode roughshod over people’s legitimate aspirations and values but smeared and demeaned them.

It gave the lie to the claim that, since this orthodoxy embodied reason and decency, only a few cranks and bigots would oppose it. The millions who voted for Brexit demonstrated that the mainstream was somewhere else altogether.

Which is why the reaction is so extreme. For this isn’t just about membership of the EU. It’s about resisting the abuse of cultural power. That’s why the battle over Brexit is now a fight to the death.

 

 

 

 

Seems a fair assessment to me.

 

Seriously man, it's just propaganda. There isn't a single fact or piece of evidence presented. Where on Earth did you find it?

 

I've highlighted some of the phrases that an intelligent person really should pick up on. It creates it's own false narrative about the opposition to Brexit and then easily proceeds to smash it. It frames its own argument to challenge a non-existent or extremist version of the opposition to Brexit. There are some good reasons to oppose Brexit. We discuss them on here every day.  None of them are tackled in this piece So no, it's not a fair assessment. It's propaganda and you have swallowed it whole.

 

On a related note, it's bizarre how closely the language I've highlighted matches with Soviet or Nazi propaganda from a different age, but obviously trying to put most of these phrases in the mouth of a non-existant Remainer. I can't help reading these phrases without a loud German accent in my head.  "THAT FACT MUST BE SUPRESSED!!"

Edited 21 February 2018 by Fox Ulike

[Webbo]

13 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

 

 

 

On a related note, it's bizarre how closely the language I've highlighted matches with Soviet or Nazi propaganda from a different age, but obviously trying to put most of these phrases in the mouth of a non-existant Remainer. I can't help reading these phrases without a loud German accent in my head.  "THAT FACT MUST BE SUPRESSED!!"

You even bolded the section yourself. 

 

Quote

What views are so dangerous that Brexit supporters are too frightened to express them and feel the need to band together for protection if they do? Well, it’s their rabid support for democratic national sovereignty and their demented belief that global engagement is more progressive than regional protectionism. As a result they are deemed to be racists, xenophobes, nativists, jingoists, Nazis and, of course, stunted imbeciles.

 

[Fox Ulike]

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

You even bolded the section yourself. 

 

 

Yes because I'm comparing the piece that you quoted as similar to Nazi propaganda. Not the whole case for Brexit!

 

Lord give me strength.

[Fox Ulike]

10 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

x days on and still he refuses to actually deny he met with Czech officials nor has he explained why he did so. Instead he's gone on the attack, a sure fire way to know someone is afraid of the truth. Still it beats him blatantly lying about Iran.

 

Just this week McDonnell has said PFI contracts could be nationalised without compensation and Corbyn has told the press 'change is coming' if they say stuff he doesn't like (conveniently always the former KGB director billionaire that owns a paper that supports him). And this is added to previous calls to requisition property, for parliament to decide the value of shares, and for government to be able to purchase land at prices it wants. 

 

If people really want such an ideologically driven government full of Stalin-sympathisers, Trotskyists, class war proponents, people calling for direct action against the opposition, people that think its a shame the Berlin Wall fell, people calling for solidarity with North Korea, people with connections to parties that approvingly publish pictures of hospitalised policemen, then that is fine, each to their own. But please stop pretending this is some kind of Scandinavian social democracy. It's embarrassing  

Since I'm on a bit of a propaganda blitz this morning...

 

Just out of interest, who is the former KGB billionaire that you refer to?

[UpTheLeagueFox]

Productivity growth strongest since financial crisis

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43140646

[leicsmac]

4 hours ago, Webbo said:

You even bolded the section yourself. 

 

 

Still waiting on evidence to prove that the scientific community/peer review process is hounding ID believers and CC deniers in the way that Ms Phillips describes IMO.

 

Mind you, maybe she's not all that interested in evidence, as seemingly evident from one part of her own belief structure that doesn't require any and that a lot of other people follow too.

[UpTheLeagueFox]

"Money Saving Expert" Martin Lewis: Why cutting tuition fees bizarrely risks hurting not helping most students

 

https://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2018/02/19/martin-lewis-cutting-tuition-fees-bizarrely-risks-hurting-not-helping-students/?_ga=2.194113197.1045004732.1519221254-1816026393.1455923970

[Buce]

 

For those of you supporting the idea of us allowing unregulated meat products into the UK:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/animals-farmed/2018/feb/21/dirty-meat-shocking-hygiene-failings-discovered-in-us-pig-and-chicken-plants

 

14% of Americans suffer with food borne diseases, compared to 1% of Britons. 

[Innovindil]

25 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

For those of you supporting the idea of us allowing unregulated meat products into the UK:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/animals-farmed/2018/feb/21/dirty-meat-shocking-hygiene-failings-discovered-in-us-pig-and-chicken-plants

 

14% of Americans suffer with food borne diseases, compared to 1% of Britons. 

??????????? 

 

Did you read the report you posted or just the headline? These bad companies broke US regulation, that's why the health and safety inspectors were there.