Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[lifted*fox]

I personally see it as an opposition willing to make sacrifices in the interest of the other 48% of the electorate so they can attain power and deliver their version of Brexit. 

 

What are they supposed to do? Stick to their guns without any movement and let the Conservatives do something in a way they perceive is damaging to the country? 

 

Of course they're going to be flexible if it wins them voters and puts them in power. They're certainly not the first and won't be the last party to do it. In fact you'll most likely find that EVERY party compromises if its get them into office. 

 

(maybe the Conservative Party could learn a thing or two about compromise tbf) 

Edited 26 February 2018 by lifted*fox

[Sharpe's Fox]

Labour Right two years ago: you have to be flexible and compromise to win an election.

Labour Right now: adhere to my bullshit Eurocommunism Borg you c unts!

[Wymsey]

UK far right-wing terror threat is increasing, and some of the foiled terror attempts by some of the groups involved are operating similarly to Islam extremists.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43200966

[DJ Barry Hammond]

7 hours ago, SMX11 said:

Agreed, Baker himself did fine personally describing the policies of Corbyn being the issue irrespective of the alleged 'traitorous' acts. He was understandably trying not to bash a follow colleague.

 

I don't understand the Labour position at all and frankly it just smacks as an attempt to force a general election. 

 

Labour had to differentiate somewhere, it felt too much like follow me leader. 

 

I also expect they’ve had a nod that there’s sufficent Conservative rebels willing to share this position. This possibly has more to do with Chuka and his work behind the scenes with the Tories, which has fed up to Stammer, who’s pressed the case to Corbyn. 

 

I don’t believe for one second this is a policy directly from Corbyn or even from his normal inner sanctum. It is risky though - it’s a halfway house that feels like an awful staying in. I’m not sure whether anyone would view it as a ‘win’ if we stayed in the customs union (business maybe, but they’re hardly going to be pro Corbyn in other areas) and I don’t think that’s the ultimate goal - i’d say this is about giving May another headache and riling the restless many inside the Conservatives.

 

Yet sadly - we’re in flux, because May isn’t resigning and no one in the Tory party wants to push her out, because the timing doesn’t work for a leadership challenge what with the Brexit clock ticking. 

 

The whole situation is an absolute cluster**** to put it mildly.

[Guest]

This is a sensible piece.

It's somebody who has managed Liam Fox's international trade department saying that having our cake and eating it is not realistic and setting out the genuine choices and consequences. If you support Brexit, have a look. It's easy to say Brexit means Brexit and consequences don't matter but they really do for our children and grandchildren. We have to be sensible and realistic about the sort of Brexit we can survive.

 

Leaving single market 'like swapping a meal for a packet of crisps', warns ex-trade chief

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/27/uk-economy-at-risk-outside-single-market-warns-former-trade-chief?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

Welcome back toddy! Interested to hear your views or any others on Corbyns speech yesterday also when you have the time.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

17 hours ago, lifted*fox said:

I personally see it as an opposition willing to make sacrifices in the interest of the other 48% of the electorate so they can attain power and deliver their version of Brexit. 

 

What are they supposed to do? Stick to their guns without any movement and let the Conservatives do something in a way they perceive is damaging to the country? 

 

Of course they're going to be flexible if it wins them voters and puts them in power. They're certainly not the first and won't be the last party to do it. In fact you'll most likely find that EVERY party compromises if its get them into office. 

 

(maybe the Conservative Party could learn a thing or two about compromise tbf) 

I think the problem for the Tories is that very few of the people in the cabinet actually believe in Brexit, in my eyes to deliver something you don't believe in is always going to be quite difficult.

 

I think that May also genuinely believes that she is carrying out the 'will of the people' supposedly.

 

The way I see it though any customs union is not likely to please those wanting a hard Brexit. I wonder given the choice would those wanting a hard Brexit rather go into a customs union or would they rather to just stay in the EU? To me being in the single market or customs unions is pretty pointless unless we can be involved in the decision making, I would think it is likely we would need to be an EU member to do this.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Foxin_mad said:

Welcome back toddy! Interested to hear your views or any others on Corbyns speech yesterday also when you have the time.

I'm hoping that I'm not 'back'. I was just getting used to not having pointless arguments with people I've never met.

 

I haven't seen the whole speech, just part.

 

Re the customs union I just think we're in a complete mess as a nation. Everybody with any expertise is saying leaving the customs union and single market is going to be disastrous. Nobody on the Brexit side has been able to put forward a single convincing argument otherwise.

 

Their spiel relies upon some sort of semi-religious belief in Brexit as a positive without any significant measurable evidence being available to back this up.

 

It's really a sad failure of europhiles and the political class to explain the benefits of membership over the 30 years that anti EU sentiment has been formented by the right wing rags. 

 

We're left in a situation where a hard right minority in parliament is having their agenda pushed by the sun, telegraph, express and mail. Unfortunately having lies told and affirmed over a very long period has given those lies a life of their own and made them real in the eyes of many. There is a huge amount of vitriol from many leavers towards softer firms of leaving. There's a really nasty element and it seems to be spreading.

 

I think many remainers are just agog at what is going on. We're called traitors (I'm not talking about on here) for suggesting softer forms of exit but want such a form because we're genuinely worried about the dire consequences of a hard Brexit for our country. We won't be swayed by rhetoric about red, white and blue brexit. 

 

We've had a democratic vote to leave. We can't not leave without another democratic vote. There's no point in having such a vote without a significant swing to remain. I'm not convinced hoping to overturn the result without a swing occurring first would end well.

 

And so Brexit moves forward. Horribly, inextricably, forward. 

 

Leaving the customs union means putting up barriers between us and the nations with whom we do the most trade. It endangers the good Friday agreement. It will mean massive issues for manufacturing (with parts crossing borders), our service economy, for travel into Europe. It is absolute folly. But then the whole thing is.

 

Like most of our politics at this moment, there is no middle ground. Everything is viewed as brilliant or terrible. Corbyn is either Jesus or the devil. Brexit is either the start of a glorious era of the end of all that is good. It is neither. But it can certainly be made closer to one or the other depending on how we leave.

 

I don't think we can mollify the right. They're like pack dogs who have been thrown fresh meat with the referendum result. Simply trying to move the meat closer to the dog bowl results in strained sinews and thrashing jaws. 

 

The labour position appears to still sit within the realm of 'have your cake and eat it' but it is closer to reality than anything the Tories have offered so far. Let's see what TM comes up with on Friday but my prediction is more empty words that sound good for the masses but mean little, even this late in the day. The opposition is one thing but for the government to be failing to just give a straight and realistic answer for what it wants (because it can't without splitting the party) is abominable. It's the worst political shitshow of my lifetime. In normal times it would've ended the government long ago.

 

My hope is that the tory 'quislings/traitors' vote with labour. We have to have a customs union. What happens next is anybody's guess. Will TM carry on? Will WRM challenge and become PM? If that happened he'd have to have an election to give him the mandate for a hard Brexit. Would he win? Would the election be a referendum on hard Brexit? But will enough soft Brexiters get over the voting for Corbyn hurdle? If you believe Brexit is damaging and socialism is damaging what do you risk?

 

It's as if the entire present and future of the nation is on a knife edge. There's a nastiness and uselessness in politics which is unbelievable. I can't help but liken our current position to Europe in the 1930s. 

 

As somebody that wants to see my country succeed I can barely watch.

Edited 27 February 2018 by Guest

[Innovindil]

I've missed you toddy. 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

22 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I'm hoping that I'm not 'back'. I was just getting used to not having pointless arguments with people I've never met.

 

I haven't seen the whole speech, just part.

 

Re the customs union I just think we're in a complete mess as a nation. Everybody with any expertise is saying leaving the customs union and single market is going to be disastrous. Nobody on the Brexit side has been able to put forward a single convincing argument otherwise.

 

Their spiel relies upon some sort of semi-religious belief in Brexit as a positive without any significant measurable evidence being available to back this up.

 

It's really a sad failure of europhiles and the political class to explain the benefits of membership over the 30 years that anti EU sentiment has been formented by the right wing rags. 

 

We're left in a situation where a hard right minority in parliament is having their agenda pushed by the sun, telegraph, express and mail. Unfortunately having lies told and affirmed over a very long period has given those lies a life of their own and made them real in the eyes of many. There is a huge amount of vitriol from many leavers towards softer firms of leaving. There's a really nasty element and it seems to be spreading.

 

I think many remainers are just agog at what is going on. We're called traitors (I'm not talking about on here) for suggesting softer forms of exit but want such a form because we're genuinely worried about the dire consequences of a hard Brexit for our country. We won't be swayed by rhetoric about red, white and blue brexit. 

 

We've had a democratic vote to leave. We can't not leave without another democratic vote. There's no point in having such a vote without a significant swing to remain. I'm not convinced hoping to overturn the result without a swing occurring first would end well.

 

And so Brexit moves forward. Horribly, inextricably, forward. 

 

Leaving the customs union means putting up barriers between us and the nations with whom we do the most trade. It endangers the good Friday agreement. It will mean massive issues for manufacturing (with parts crossing borders), our service economy, for travel into Europe. It is absolute folly. But then the whole thing is.

 

Like most of our politics at this moment, there is no middle ground. Everything is viewed as brilliant or terrible. Corbyn is either Jesus or the devil. Brexit is either the start of a glorious era of the end of all that is good. It is neither. But it can certainly be made closer to one or the other depending on how we leave.

 

I don't think we can mollify the right. They're like pack dogs who have been thrown fresh meat with the referendum result. Simply trying to move the meat closer to the dog bowl results in strained sinews and thrashing jaws. 

 

The labour position appears to still sit within the realm of 'have your cake and eat it' but it is closer to reality than anything the Tories have offered so far. Let's see what TM comes up with on Friday but my prediction is more empty words that sound good for the masses but mean little, even this late in the day. The opposition is one thing but for the government to be failing to just give a straight and realistic answer for what it wants (because it can't without splitting the party) is abominable. It's the worst political shitshow of my lifetime. In normal times it would've ended the government long ago.

 

My hope is that the tory 'quislings/traitors' vote with labour. We have to have a customs union. What happens next is anybody's guess. Will TM carry on? Will WRM challenge and become PM? If that happened he'd have to have an election to give him the mandate for a hard Brexit. Would he win? Would the election be a referendum on hard Brexit? But will enough soft Brexiters get over the voting for Corbyn hurdle? If you believe Brexit is damaging and socialism is damaging what do you risk?

 

It's as if the entire present and future of the nation is on a knife edge. There's a nastiness and uselessness in politics which is unbelievable. I can't help but liken our current position to Europe in the 1930s. 

 

As somebody that wants to see my country succeed I can barely watch.

Good post and interesting thoughts. I personally cant really see the point of a customs union if we are not in the EU, but maybe I am completely missing the point! I can not really see the benefit of a Brexit where all we do is the same but with less power. We might as well just stay in in my eyes but I suppose the longer we go on the less likely that is to happen from any side.

[Alf Bentley]

37 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I'm hoping that I'm not 'back'. I was just getting used to not having pointless arguments with people I've never met.

 

I haven't seen the whole speech, just part.

 

Re the customs union I just think we're in a complete mess as a nation. Everybody with any expertise is saying leaving the customs union and single market is going to be disastrous. Nobody on the Brexit side has been able to put forward a single convincing argument otherwise.

 

Their spiel relies upon some sort of semi-religious belief in Brexit as a positive without any significant measurable evidence being available to back this up.

 

It's really a sad failure of europhiles and the political class to explain the benefits of membership over the 30 years that anti EU sentiment has been formented by the right wing rags. 

 

We're left in a situation where a hard right minority in parliament is having their agenda pushed by the sun, telegraph, express and mail. Unfortunately having lies told and affirmed over a very long period has given those lies a life of their own and made them real in the eyes of many. There is a huge amount of vitriol from many leavers towards softer firms of leaving. There's a really nasty element and it seems to be spreading.

 

I think many remainers are just agog at what is going on. We're called traitors (I'm not talking about on here) for suggesting softer forms of exit but want such a form because we're genuinely worried about the dire consequences of a hard Brexit for our country. We won't be swayed by rhetoric about red, white and blue brexit. 

 

We've had a democratic vote to leave. We can't not leave without another democratic vote. There's no point in having such a vote without a significant swing to remain. I'm not convinced hoping to overturn the result without a swing occurring first would end well.

 

And so Brexit moves forward. Horribly, inextricably, forward. 

 

Leaving the customs union means putting up barriers between us and the nations with whom we do the most trade. It endangers the good Friday agreement. It will mean massive issues for manufacturing (with parts crossing borders), our service economy, for travel into Europe. It is absolute folly. But then the whole thing is.

 

Like most of our politics at this moment, there is no middle ground. Everything is viewed as brilliant or terrible. Corbyn is either Jesus or the devil. Brexit is either the start of a glorious era of the end of all that is good. It is neither. But it can certainly be made closer to one or the other depending on how we leave.

 

I don't think we can mollify the right. They're like pack dogs who have been thrown fresh meat with the referendum result. Simply trying to move the meat closer to the dog bowl results in strained sinews and thrashing jaws. 

 

The labour position appears to still sit within the realm of 'have your cake and eat it' but it is closer to reality than anything the Tories have offered so far. Let's see what TM comes up with on Friday but my prediction is more empty words that sound good for the masses but mean little, even this late in the day. The opposition is one thing but for the government to be failing to just give a straight and realistic answer for what it wants (because it can't without splitting the party) is abominable. It's the worst political shitshow of my lifetime. In normal times it would've ended the government long ago.

 

My hope is that the tory 'quislings/traitors' vote with labour. We have to have a customs union. What happens next is anybody's guess. Will TM carry on? Will WRM challenge and become PM? If that happened he'd have to have an election to give him the mandate for a hard Brexit. Would he win? Would the election be a referendum on hard Brexit? But will enough soft Brexiters get over the voting for Corbyn hurdle? If you believe Brexit is damaging and socialism is damaging what do you risk?

 

It's as if the entire present and future of the nation is on a knife edge. There's a nastiness and uselessness in politics which is unbelievable. I can't help but liken our current position to Europe in the 1930s. 

 

As somebody that wants to see my country succeed I can barely watch.

 

[lifted*fox]

Boris has likened solving the Irish border issue post-Brexit to the congestion charge setup between Camden and Islington.

 

Honestly, how is this ****ing chump anywhere near politics, let alone Foreign Secretary. 

 

I can't find the words tbh.

 

How can ANYONE support this guy, seriously? 

[Webbo]

We like a Guardian article on here.

 

If the elite ever cared about the have-nots, that didn’t last long

The knee-jerk denigration of Brexit and Trump was bad enough, but now it is being intellectualised

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/26/have-nots-denigration-brexit-trump

[Buce]

14 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

Boris has likened solving the Irish border issue post-Brexit to the congestion charge setup between Camden and Islington.

 

Honestly, how is this ****ing chump anywhere near politics, let alone Foreign Secretary. 

 

I can't find the words tbh.

 

How can ANYONE support this guy, seriously? 

 

The really perplexing and scary thing is that a lot of Tories would like to see him as Prime Minister.

[Webbo]

Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit plan hasn't gone down well in Labour's heartlands

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyns-brexit-plan-hasnt-12093689

[lifted*fox]

Soft Brexit plans go down badly with mostly old people from Barnsley. 

 

Who'd have thought it.

 

[Guest MattP]

11 minutes ago, Buce said:

The really perplexing and scary thing is that a lot of Tories would like to see him as Prime Minister.

Do they still? He was way, way down in the last CH study.

[Buce]

A foretaste of what's coming to all councils:

 

Northamptonshire adult care services 'on verge of being unsafe'

Cash-strapped council says up to 2,000 cases involving older and disabled people are unassigned

 

Care services for older and disabled adults are on the verge of being unsafe in Northamptonshire, the crisis-ridden county council has said, with as many as 2,000 cases unassigned because of major budget cuts.

The Tory-run council, which declared it was close to effective bankruptcy earlier this month, was given the prognosis by senior officials as it sought to agree a £10m cuts programme which will include the closure of 21 of its 36 libraries. It came just days after a warning from the council’s auditor that its existing plans to reduce services would deliver insufficient savings to enable it to set a legal budget for 2018-19.

Northamptonshire’s adult social care services were on the point of intervention, the officials said on Tuesday, in comments reported by the BBC. The officials added that the service had the lowest staffing levels in England.

 

he council, which is proposing to end most of its rural bus services, freeze staff pay and ban all new spending until further notice, has warned it will be the first of many local authorities forced to take such difficult decisions.

It said the “severe and unprecedented” financial challenges it faced as a result of years of funding reductions from central government made it inevitable that it would have to push ahead with unpopular cuts to services.

It is expected to reverse a decision taken last month to soften cuts in response to public opposition. This means it will also impose a 40% cut to trading standards services, and reduce road repairs.

Opposition parties have said the latest round of cuts reduces the council to a skeleton operation, able to support only the most basic services to vulnerable adults and children which it has a legal duty to provide.

Although the cuts are likely to trigger anger, the council said it had no choice but to reconsider cuts it had previously rejected or considered undesirable if it was to meet its legal obligations to set a balanced budget.

It said there were no guarantees that even these cuts would put the council’s finances on a sustainable footing, and it may have to make further saving in a few months’ time.

In a formal note to the council leadership, its cabinet member for finance, Robin Brown, said: “Northamptonshire is on the leading edge of a set of extremely difficult decisions that will face all top-tier local authorities.

“Funding is declining at the same time as need and costs are rising and this means that county councils will be seen by their residents to withdraw from services aimed at the population as a whole in favour of the services required by those most in need.”

The cuts include:

• The closure of 21 of 36 libraries, just weeks after a public campaign forced the council to abandon plans to close 28 of them.
• A 42% reduction in trading standards services, a £500,000 cut in funding for vulnerable teenagers, and a £600,000 cut in grants to local charities.
• The removal of a proposed 2% pay rise for staff, despite warnings that this would make it harder to recruit and retain key care workers.

Northamptonshire’s leader, Heather Smith, has blamed government underfunding for its dire financial predicament, although some Conservative backbenchers and local MPs have accused her and her predecessors of poor leadership, and have threatened Smith with a vote of no confidence.

A government-appointed inspector has been at the council since January investigating alleged failings in governance and financial management. His report is expected in March.

A full council meeting will be held on Wednesday to approve the budget.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/27/northamptonshire-adult-care-services-on-verge-unsafe

[lifted*fox]

The idea that even one single person could think he was suitable to run a country is unthinkable tbqfh. 

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, lifted*fox said:

The idea that even one single person could think he was suitable to run a country is unthinkable tbqfh. 

I feel the same about the thicko running Labour but what can we do.

 

I think the era of political heavyweights is over, I have no idea why but the smartest in society either don't seem interested in getting involved in politics now or the parties don't raise them to the top.

 

Exception of Lidington, Gove, JRM, Umanna, Clarke, Cooper, Starmer etc who all are clearly quite bright (off the top of my head)

[lifted*fox]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

I feel the same about the thicko running Labour but what can we do.

 

I think the era of political heavyweights is over, I have no idea why but the smartest in society either don't seem interested in getting involved in politics now or the parties don't raise them to the top.

 

Exception of Lidington, Gove, JRM, Umanna, Clarke, Cooper, Starmer etc who all are clearly quite bright (off the top of my head)

 

whatever you might think of Corbyn's political views / policies, etc. he is clearly a million times more intelligent than Boris lol.

 

Boris is just a fool, a buffoon, an idiot. he clearly doesn't have an intelligent bone in his body. he has bum-licked and bought and blackmailed his way to a high position.

 

it is clear from the way he speaks, the ideas that he has, his inability to understand a situation that he is not, in any way / shape / form a clever man. 

 

most smart people don't make their way to the top in politics because smart people would jeopardise the inner political sanctum where these idiots are currently allowed to roam free - stealing money, taking bribes, protecting one another from various criminal investigations. 

 

if our country was run by an independent panel of intelligent thinkers from sectors such as science, medicine, economics, education, retail, etc. then we'd be far better off. unfortunately it's run by selfish ****-pigs who only care about themselves, money and staying in power at all costs - to the point that they ignore information from advisers in the mentioned sectors above. 

 

it really is a comedy setup. 

[Webbo]

Corbyn is as thick as shit whose never had a proper job. Thank god he'll never be PM.

[Donut]

4 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit plan hasn't gone down well in Labour's heartlands

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyns-brexit-plan-hasnt-12093689

Without wanting to make this about you, the fact is, facts are irrelevant in the discussion.

 

It doesnt matter what facts you present to someone over how much worse off they will be, how business will be affected, people are not interested.

 

I dont want to do this, but take your example. You have been hard wired to vote brexit, out the customs union, out of the single market. You cant name any eu laws but yet you hate them. You cant name how they operate. You dont understand sovereignty. You cant give any rational idea of how brexit will benefit the country, or acknowledge despite expert after expert saying we will be worse off any rational plan for the economy. If youre self employed, itll affect all your customers too.

 

Please, im not having a go at you. Its for illustrative purposes.

 

It represents the thoughts of many people in the public who are leavers. Like the people of grimsby who voted to leave the EU, then fish processing companies who provide much of the wealth of the area realised their businesses would be absolutely fvcked so started to talk about exemptions, staying in customs unions to keep their imports reasonable and protect the jobs of people for whom many would have voted to leave.

 

It doesnt matter HOW pragmatic you are, how honest a picture of the future you present, for many hard brexit is a religion and nothing will ever stop the momentum.

 

There is nothing you could say to many of those hard wired, old people from Barnsley that would have any impact whatsoever. To many, any attempt to soften the impact of all the negative consequences of brexit would be a disrespect of democracy, even if they were being saved from themselves.

 

This is why Theresa May is so fvcked. How can she win? deliver a softer brexit that keeps people better off and customs union trade, she loses the support of the public who will kick up that their votes are being ignored, and she loses the support of the hard right of her party who will want to get out of any customs union and the single market.

 

Deliver hard brexit, she makes the dissenters in her party happy, probably makes everyone worse off, loses support and votes, gets voted out.

 

Its not about denigration of people, these are real issues that will affect ALL of us and they are being ignored in for no justifiable reason in so many cases as people follow what amounts to a hate filled cult.

 

[Sharpe's Fox]

Love these thick Marxists polling ahead of the government and being backed by business interest groups hahaha

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Donut said:

 

 

It doesnt matter HOW pragmatic you are, how honest a picture of the future you present, for many hard brexit is a religion and nothing will ever stop the momentum.

 

 

 

Well all those disastrous things that were supposed to have happened by now haven't and yet some people still cling to the belief they will. Maybe remaining in the EU is a religion?