Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Innovindil]

24 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

The UK is dying you empirialist, racist idiot.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/frenzy-hatred-brexit-racism-abuse-referendum-celebratory-lasting-damage

Oh balls. We're all doomed! 

[Buce]

 

EU publishes plan to keep Northern Ireland in customs union

Commission’s draft withdrawal agreement expected to throw Brexit negotiations into crisis

 

The EU has published its plan to effectively keep Northern Ireland in the single market and customs union after Brexit, in a 120-page draft withdrawal agreement that will throw the negotiations into crisis.

The territory of Northern Ireland would be considered part of the EU’s customs territory after Brexit, with checks required on goods coming in from the rest of the UK, under the text produced by the European commission.

A raft of single market legislation will also apply to ensure the province stays in lockstep with laws of the Republic of Ireland that are relevant to the north-south flow of trade.

 

“A common regulatory area comprising the Union and the United Kingdom in respect of Northern Ireland is hereby established,” the draft says. “The common regulatory area shall constitute an area without internal borders in which the free movement of goods is ensured and North-South cooperation protect.”

Downing Street insisted overnight that the prime minister would not sign up to “anything that threatens the constitutional integrity of the UK” amid claims that the EU is seeking to annex Northern Ireland.

But the Republic and the EU do not regard the plan as interference in the UK’s domestic affairs of the UK. They see it as merely the honouring of an agreement already struck with Downing Street in December.

The EU document, which has 168 clauses, two protocols and an annex, puts into legal terms the commitments made in a joint report between the UK and the commission last December under which three options for avoiding a hard border were proposed.

The draft paper leaves open the possibility that a future free-trade deal or some bespoke technological solutions could make the plan for full regulatory alignment null and void. But it focuses on “operationalising” the final, and most controversial option, of keeping Northern Ireland under EU law.

The commission has said that this is currently the only viable option.

There is no mention in the paper of the Downing Street’s promise in the joint report to keep the whole of the UK in regulatory alignment with the EU to avoid a border emerging in the Irish sea. Brussels regards that as a domestic deal brokered by the UK government with the Democratic Unionist party.

 

The publication throws the negotiations into a dangerous phase. The EU has previously insisted that it will only open talks on a future trade deal if “all commitments undertaken during the first phase are respected in full and translated faithfully into legal terms as quickly as possible”.

The document further states that the European court of justice will be the arbiter of disputes over the withdrawal agreement, a position that has been described by Jacob Rees-Mogg, chairman of the European Research Group (ERG) of backbenchers, as turning the UK into a vassal state.

Spain will also have to be placated by the UK, the draft agreements says, if Gibraltar is to be covered by the terms of the transition period.

It is understood talks have been opened between Madrid and London over Spain’s insistence that it manages the Rock’s airport which is located on an area of land whose ownership is disputed. It also wants greater co-operation on tobacco smuggling and tax fraud. Spain believes Gibraltar’s economy is based on money

[Guest MattP]

So the EU is now trying to interfere in the constitutional affairs of a sovereign nation? I wish I could say I was surprised. A common regulatory area that covers customs, VAT (they aren't even forced into that now ), energy, product markets and of course - full ECJ jurisdiction.

 

If this is some weird negotiating move then it should become clear, but they know full well no British government could accept that, whether Blue, Red or Yellow.

 

I hope those criticising the British government for jeopardising the peace process will also now be just as critical of the EU when doing the same. What a fcuking organisation this really is.

 

[Strokes]

12 minutes ago, MattP said:

So the EU is now trying to interfere in the constitutional affairs of a sovereign nation? I wish I could say I was surprised. A common regulatory area that covers customs, VAT (they aren't even forced into that now ), energy, product markets and of course - full ECJ jurisdiction.

 

If this is some weird negotiating move then it should become clear, but they know full well no British government could accept that, whether Blue, Red or Yellow.

 

I hope those criticising the British government for jeopardising the peace process will also now be just as critical of the EU when doing the same. What a fcuking organisation this really is.

 

And pigs do really fly.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

I blame the bankers lets tax the tory filth

[Guest]

https://www.sciencealert.com/11-psychological-differences-between-liberals-and-conservatives-2

 

Discuss.

[Captain...]

25 minutes ago, MattP said:

So the EU is now trying to interfere in the constitutional affairs of a sovereign nation? I wish I could say I was surprised. A common regulatory area that covers customs, VAT (they aren't even forced into that now ), energy, product markets and of course - full ECJ jurisdiction.

 

If this is some weird negotiating move then it should become clear, but they know full well no British government could accept that, whether Blue, Red or Yellow.

 

I hope those criticising the British government for jeopardising the peace process will also now be just as critical of the EU when doing the same. What a fcuking organisation this really is.

 

Brexit is what is jeopardising the peace process, we have 4 options:

 

No border (like now)

A border between NI and ROI 

A border between NI and GB

A border between Ireland and the EU

 

This was always going to be the case with Brexit it was known at the time of the vote, it should have been made clear at the time of the referendum exactly what it meant for NI. It wasn’t. I don’t blame May or the EU, I blame Cameron for calling the referendum and Gove and Johnson for filling the leave campaign full of lies and waffle and Corbyn for not providing an adequate opposition.

 

I know you don’t agree with the EU’s proposal but it is either that or a border between NI and ROI or we scrap this Hard Brexit approach.

 

As someone who wants Brexit at any cost, does the annexation of NI count as acceptable collateral? 

 

Obviously my preferred option is scrapping this ridiculous idea, but failing that I would give NI a referendum over their border. Border with ROI or GB.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

7 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Brexit is what is jeopardising the peace process, we have 4 options:

 

No border (like now)

A border between NI and ROI 

A border between NI and GB

A border between Ireland and the EU

 

This was always going to be the case with Brexit it was known at the time of the vote, it should have been made clear at the time of the referendum exactly what it meant for NI. It wasn’t. I don’t blame May or the EU, I blame Cameron for calling the referendum and Gove and Johnson for filling the leave campaign full of lies and waffle and Corbyn for not providing an adequate opposition.

 

I know you don’t agree with the EU’s proposal but it is either that or a border between NI and ROI or we scrap this Hard Brexit approach.

 

As someone who wants Brexit at any cost, does the annexation of NI count as acceptable collateral? 

 

Obviously my preferred option is scrapping this ridiculous idea, but failing that I would give NI a referendum over their border. Border with ROI or GB.

If the EU wants a hard border then why does Switzerland not have one? and why can we not negotiate similar?

 

From what I understand Switzerland is in the Single Market but NOT the Customs Union. It seems the EU can be flexible, when it want to of course.

 

I am a little perplexed as to why everyone believes every single thing the EU feed them.

 

I am struggling to see why bilateral agreements can not be made to keep borders open. Of course if somebody is trying a bit of political point scoring that could be the reason for being difficult.

[Captain...]

8 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

If the EU wants a hard border then why does Switzerland not have one? and why can we not negotiate similar?

 

From what I understand Switzerland is in the Single Market but NOT the Customs Union. It seems the EU can be flexible, when it want to of course.

 

I am a little perplexed as to why everyone believes every single thing the EU feed them.

 

I am struggling to see why bilateral agreements can not be made to keep borders open. Of course if somebody is trying a bit of political point scoring that could be the reason for being difficult.

The Goverment doesn’t want a Switzerland deal. If we were prepared to accept the same terms as Switzerland we would probably get the same deal. The main one being freedom of movement. We can’t close our borders to the EU without dealing with the Ireland situation. Open borders, or a border for NI either with ROI or GB, or we convince Ireland to leave the EU then the problem is solved.

[Fox Ulike]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

So the EU is now trying to interfere in the constitutional affairs of a sovereign nation? I wish I could say I was surprised. A common regulatory area that covers customs, VAT (they aren't even forced into that now ), energy, product markets and of course - full ECJ jurisdiction.

 

If this is some weird negotiating move then it should become clear, but they know full well no British government could accept that, whether Blue, Red or Yellow.

 

I hope those criticising the British government for jeopardising the peace process will also now be just as critical of the EU when doing the same. What a fcuking organisation this really is.

 

So we are a sovereign nation then?

[Fox Ulike]

17 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

If the EU wants a hard border then why does Switzerland not have one? and why can we not negotiate similar?

 

From what I understand Switzerland is in the Single Market but NOT the Customs Union. It seems the EU can be flexible, when it want to of course.

 

I am a little perplexed as to why everyone believes every single thing the EU feed them.

 

I am struggling to see why bilateral agreements can not be made to keep borders open. Of course if somebody is trying a bit of political point scoring that could be the reason for being difficult.

I guess if we stay in the single market then we can probably get the same deal as Switzerland. No hard border.

 

I don't think that the UK has put that option on the table though?

[Fox Ulike]

3 minutes ago, Captain... said:

The Goverment doesn’t want a Switzerland deal. If we were prepared to accept the same terms as Switzerland we would probably get the same deal. The main one being freedom of movement. We can’t close our borders to the EU without dealing with the Ireland situation. Open borders, or a border for NI either with ROI or GB, or we convince Ireland to leave the EU then the problem is solved.

Does Switzerland have freedom of movement?

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, FIF said:

https://www.sciencealert.com/11-psychological-differences-between-liberals-and-conservatives-2

 

Discuss.

Interesting, and pretty accurate, from what I can tell. Now all we need is something linking these studies to evolutionary behaviour.

 

Also TFW Farage gets the Left more than quite a few people on the Left do:

 

 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

1 hour ago, Captain... said:

The Goverment doesn’t want a Switzerland deal. If we were prepared to accept the same terms as Switzerland we would probably get the same deal. The main one being freedom of movement. We can’t close our borders to the EU without dealing with the Ireland situation. Open borders, or a border for NI either with ROI or GB, or we convince Ireland to leave the EU then the problem is solved.

I don't see why we can not negotiate a similar deal with bilateral agreements. I think that Switzerland was in Schengen area but I am sure are due to hold a referendum about stopping free movement:

 

https://www.thelocal.ch/20180117/free-movement-initiative-could-result-in-swiss-brexit

 

What implications will that have and if the EU do allow that for Switzerland without hard borders then why not us? If they make Switzerland have a hard border that will certainly create an interesting spot right at the heart of the EU.

 

Interesting for Britian I would say, if the Swiss are allowed a EFTA style agreement with no customs union and no free movement, then why not us?

Edited 28 February 2018 by Foxin_mad

[fuchsntf]

10 hours ago, Suzie the Fox said:

Hmm I vote Torie, read the Daily Express and was up for Brexit., can i post in this thread? If so who are my enimies and allies ? 

 

 

 

 

 Now dont be silly.......Gals from pork-pie Country...Just dont have enimies.

[Kopfkino]

1 minute ago, Foxin_mad said:

I don't see why we can not negotiate a similar deal with bilateral agreements. I think that Switzerland was in Schengen area but I am sure are due to hold a referendum about stopping free movement:

 

https://www.thelocal.ch/20180117/free-movement-initiative-could-result-in-swiss-brexit

 

What implications will that have and if the EU do allow that for Switzerland without hard borders then why not us? If they make Switzerland have a hard border that will certainly create an interesting spot right at the heart of the EU.

 

Interesting for Britian I would say, if the Swiss are allowed a EFTA style agreement with no customs union and no free movement, then why not us?

 

But they do have free movement and its in the agreement that all agreements cease if one is compromised, so withdrawing from freedom of movement cancels everything. 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

2 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

But they do have free movement and its in the agreement that all agreements cease if one is compromised, so withdrawing from freedom of movement cancels everything. 

It will be interesting to see the outcome of this then. We could have Swiexit!

[Captain...]

1 hour ago, Fox Ulike said:

Does Switzerland have freedom of movement?

Yes, and has adapted it's laws to conform to EU rule. It really was the best option available to us for a smooth Brexit. Follow the Swiss model and go from there. Sadly the Hard Brexit lobbyists put a stop to that. The Swiss model is closest to having your cake and eating it. 

 

The fact Switzerland are currently trying to impose an immigration cap does make it interesting.

[Buce]

John Major calls for Commons vote on second referendum

Former PM attacks government’s Brexit strategy saying parliament has duty to consider ‘well-being of the people’

 

Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.

 

In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.

“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”

“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said.

At the same time as calling for the country to have a final say on Brexit if the terms negotiated by the government were unacceptable to MPs, Major issued scathing criticism of the government’s strategy, which he described as lacking credibility.

“Every one of the Brexit promises is – to quote Henry Fielding – ‘a very wholesome and comfortable doctrine to which (there is) but one objection: namely, that it is not true’”, he said.

“I know of no precedent for any government enacting a policy that will make both our country and our people poorer. Once that is apparent, the government must change course.”

 

Major, who helped build the groundwork for peace in Northern Ireland, also hit out at recent calls to ignore the dangers of restoring border control. “We need a policy to protect the Good Friday agreement – and we need one urgently,” he said. “And it is our responsibility to find one – not the European Union.”

The former prime minister withheld his strongest criticism for Brexit ultras taking the Tory party away from its pro-business roots.

“Over many years, the Conservative party has understood the concerns of business. Not over Brexit, it seems,” he says. “This is not only grand folly. It’s also bad politics.

 

“Our self-imposed ‘red lines’ have boxed the government into a corner,” he added. “They are so tilted to ultra Brexit opinion, even the cabinet cannot agree them – and a majority in both houses of parliament oppose them. If maintained in full, it will be impossible to reach a favourable trade outcome.”

Warning that 125,000 jobs with Japanese companies could be lost in the UK, he said “none of it has yet been properly explained to the British people”.

“No one voted for higher prices and poorer public services, but that is what they may get,” said Major. “The emerging evidence suggests Brexit will hurt most those who have least ... This isn’t ‘Project Fear’ revisited, it is ‘Project Know Your History’.”

He delivered a veiled attack on fellow former Tory prime minister David Cameron, who recently suggested in Davos that Brexit may not be a total disaster.

“In recent weeks, the idea has gained ground that Brexit won’t be too bad; that we will all get through it; that we’re doing better than expected – and all will be well,” said Major. “Of course we will get through it: life as we know it won’t come to an end. We are too resourceful and talented a nation for that. But our nation is owed a frank assessment of what leaving Europe may mean – for now and the future.”

This, he said, is the “patriotic” argument to make, chastising those who argue he and other critics are letting the country down. “We are all urged to be ‘patriotic’ and get behind Brexit. But it is precisely because I am patriotic that I oppose it,” said Major.

“There must be respect for differing views that are honestly held. In this debate there are no ‘remoaners’, no ‘mutineers’, no ‘enemies of the people’ – just voices setting out what they believe is right for our country.”

[Guest Foxin_mad]

It is a shame that there is not widespread support for a 2nd referendum to be honest. I think it really is the only way to put this issue to bed once and for all as the current situation is untenable. Believe me I fully get the argument that we had a referendum and there was a binding result but I feel the result should be more conclusive either way maybe polling above 60% to pass or something, there is just too much uncertainty surrounding the whole thing. At the end of the day it really is very divisive, we have nearly a 50/50 split on what people want, either way there will be a lot of disenchanted people and I cant really see another way out.

 

As much as I don't like May I do fee she is between a rock and a hard place. She is/was pro Europe, the majority of the cabinet are. I am not sure on the split of pro/anti EU in the Tory party but it is going to be hard to satisfy all of them if not impossible. She has the very real possibility if she get this wrong of making her party unelectable for decades to come. I would not want that job.

 

On the basis of the referendum the slim 'majority' of people wanted Brexit. If May delivers a 'hard' Brexit for 52% it is going to still piss off 48% of the electorate, if she delivers a 'soft' Brexit she could piss off 52% and some of the 48%. If she goes for another referendum she pisses off the 52% but maybe wins over 48% and some who have changed heir minds! The down side is Farage and or UKIP make a return especially in the North. Personally I would call an election for June and let some other ****er deal with it

 

Edited 28 February 2018 by Foxin_mad

[Buce]

1 minute ago, Foxin_mad said:

It is a shame that there is not widespread support for a 2nd referendum to be honest. I think it really is the only way to put this issue to bed once and for all as the current situation is untenable.

 

As much as I don't like May I do fee she is between a rock and a hard place. She is/was pro Europe, the majority of the cabinet are. I am not sure on the split of pro/anti EU in the Tory party but it is going to be hard to satisfy all of them if not impossible. She has the very real possibility if she get this wrong of making her party unelectable for decades to come. I would not want that job.

 

On the basis of the referendum the slim 'majority' of people wanted Brexit. If May delivers a 'hard' Brexit for 52% it is going to still piss off 48% of the electorate, if she delivers a 'soft' Brexit she could piss off 52% and some of the 48%. If she goes for another referendum she pisses off the 52% but maybe wins over 48% and some who have changed heir minds! The down side is Farage and or UKIP make a return especially in the North. Personally I would call an election for June and let some other ****er deal with it

 

 

The only reason there is not widespread support is because the Brexiteers know they would lose now that all the lies are exposed.

[Captain...]

1 minute ago, Foxin_mad said:

It is a shame that there is not widespread support for a 2nd referendum to be honest. I think it really is the only way to put this issue to bed once and for all as the current situation is untenable.

 

As much as I don't like May I do fee she is between a rock and a hard place. She is/was pro Europe, the majority of the cabinet are. I am not sure on the split of pro/anti EU in the Tory party but it is going to be hard to satisfy all of them if not impossible. She has the very real possibility if she get this wrong of making her party unelectable for decades to come. I would not want that job.

 

On the basis of the referendum the slim 'majority' of people wanted Brexit. If May delivers a 'hard' Brexit for 52% it is going to still piss off 48% of the electorate, if she delivers a 'soft' Brexit she could piss off 52% and some of the 48%. If she goes for another referendum she pisses off the 52% but maybe wins over 48% and some who have changed heir minds! The down side is Farage and or UKIP make a return especially in the North. Personally I would call an election for June and let some other ****er deal with it

 

A Hard Brexit will piss off a number in the 52% nobody voted for Hard Brexit of that 52% some voted for a Swiss deal, some for EFTA some for a bespoke deal where we have our cake and eat it, some just want to shut our borders. There were many different reasons for voting leave but not all of these can be delivered. It was a binary question with a really complex solution.

 

Regardless of all of that any sane politician should want a second referendum to either put the whole thing to bed or cover their own backs.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

The only reason there is not widespread support is because the Brexiteers know they would lose now that all the lies are exposed.

But surely if there are a lot of people who screwed up their vote last time and they want a chance to make a mends there would be widespread lobbying for a 2nd referendum. That seems to be something we are not seeing. The Lib Dems who stood admittedly last year were largely ignored for 2 parties at different angles.

 

It will be interesting to see what Corbyns speech does to Labour support in the North as their views are becoming more entrenched, I don't think the modern labour party is really getting or hearing its working class voters in the North, they have years of tribal voting ingrained into their souls and the very possibility of someone in a mining town considering to vote Tory is almost unfathomable but it actually could happen over Brexit.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

2 minutes ago, Captain... said:

A Hard Brexit will piss off a number in the 52% nobody voted for Hard Brexit of that 52% some voted for a Swiss deal, some for EFTA some for a bespoke deal where we have our cake and eat it, some just want to shut our borders. There were many different reasons for voting leave but not all of these can be delivered. It was a binary question with a really complex solution.

 

Regardless of all of that any sane politician should want a second referendum to either put the whole thing to bed or cover their own backs.

I think some wanted a so called hard Brexit, no idea on the percentages involved however. To be honest I can see the advantages of a hard Brexit over a soft Brexit but my personal preference would be no Brexit. To be in a block that we have no real control over would be ridiculous in my eyes, I don't know if the Swiss deal allowed them to negotiate their own trade arrangements, I would expect not? I don't think they have any influence over negotiating deals for the EU/Single market either but again I could be wrong.

 

To me it makes sense for people to lay on the table clearly what their position and let people vote on that. If May or the Tories are going to go with Hard Brexit give us the details behind that, what it means honestly. Labour have set down their position now, I think its rubbish but in fairness they have been quite clear. We need all parties to do the same.

[Captain...]

Just now, Foxin_mad said:

I think some wanted a so called hard Brexit, no idea on the percentages involved however. To be honest I can see the advantages of a hard Brexit over a soft Brexit but my personal preference would be no Brexit. To be in a block that we have no real control over would be ridiculous in my eyes, I don't know if the Swiss deal allowed them to negotiate their own trade arrangements, I would expect not? I don't think they have any influence over negotiating deals for the EU/Single market either but again I could be wrong.

 

To me it makes sense for people to lay on the table clearly what their position and let people vote on that. If May or the Tories are going to go with Hard Brexit give us the details behind that, what it means honestly. Labour have set down their position now, I think its rubbish but in fairness they have been quite clear. We need all parties to do the same.

Switzerland are able to negotiate their own trade deals, but they still have to follow certain rules on trade and I don’t think they are bound by the ECJ but they can choose to go to it to settle disputes, it is the closest to have your cake and eat it Brexit but it relies on freedom of movement.