Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

This was always going to be the issue of Brexit though. Voting for Brexit meant voting for however the govt. would handle Brexit. We didnt vote for a plan. We voted to cut loose from the EU and come what may. We never knew how they would handle it

If in hindsight the whole thing seems reckless and foolish, thats probably because it is

 

And it is completely cheap of Boris and Cameron to bail on the consequences. Washing their hands of it. Dealing with brexit means dealing with everyone and all their disagreements. They decided it was too hard in reality

Fully agree on Boris and Cameron, the former should have stuck to his guns and tried to become the Prime Minister after the vote, as for Dave, his decision to call a referendum, only plan for one outcome and then run away when the vote didn't go his way was probably the biggest dereliction of duty from a sitting PM since Eden and Suez.

 

It's exactly why it should have been achieved through a general election rather than a referendum, easy to say in hindsight but this was always going to be the issue, that would have forced the parties to represent their electorate as well, one of the biggest scandals of the whole thing was that over 75% of MP's were on the Remain side, I can't think of another issue where the house is that out of touch with the public.

[Max Wall]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

Fully agree on Boris and Cameron, the former should have stuck to his guns and tried to become the Prime Minister after the vote, as for Dave, his decision to call a referendum, only plan for one outcome and then run away when the vote didn't go his way was probably the biggest dereliction of duty from a sitting PM since Eden and Suez.

 

It's exactly why it should have been achieved through a general election rather than a referendum, easy to say in hindsight but this was always going to be the issue, that would have forced the parties to represent their electorate as well, one of the biggest scandals of the whole thing was that over 75% of MP's were on the Remain side, I can't think of another issue where the house is that out of touch with the public.

That's precisely why he didn't after the vote though isn't it? You would have to be rather foolhardy to want to be the prime minister  dealing with Brexit, at best, half the population will disagree with almost everything you do.

 

 

[Buce]

9 minutes ago, MattP said:

Fully agree on Boris and Cameron, the former should have stuck to his guns and tried to become the Prime Minister after the vote, as for Dave, his decision to call a referendum, only plan for one outcome and then run away when the vote didn't go his way was probably the biggest dereliction of duty from a sitting PM since Eden and Suez.

 

It's exactly why it should have been achieved through a general election rather than a referendum, easy to say in hindsight but this was always going to be the issue, that would have forced the parties to represent their electorate as well, one of the biggest scandals of the whole thing was that over 75% of MP's were on the Remain side, I can't think of another issue where the house is that out of touch with the public.

 

 

Capital punishment?

[RoboFox]

"I also like breathing... Because, y'know... as well as allowing for a gas exchange within the internal environment in order to facilitate the complex process of cellular respiration...

 

...It also keeps me alive"

 

Whoever coded the Prime Minister's responses today needs to have a look at themselves. I've had kitchen appliances with more sentience than this.

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

1 minute ago, RoboFox said:

"I also like breathing... Because, y'know... as well as allowing for a gas exchange within the internal environment in order to facilitate the complex process of cellular respiration...

 

...It also keeps me alive"

 

Whoever coded the Prime Minister's responses today needs to have a look at themselves. I've had kitchen appliances with more sentience than this.

Bless her. Always seems so tortured beneath that thin veil of pained cheerfulness

[Jon the Hat]

What a ****ing disaster our Government is.  I watched John Major clips from Sunday and actually thought he would today make a better PM than Theresa.

[lifted*fox]

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

It shows that he isn't confident in the outcome of Brexit IMO, and after standing up and telling the public (most of which cannot cover their arses in the same way) that he is confident about it, that's hypocritical. Do as I say, not as I do.

 

Absolutely.

 

JRM is the Farmer and his Brexiteers are the turkeys, no doubt.

 

He'll gently whisper them down to the slaughterhouse; "it'll be ok, little turkeys - I'm here all the way with you" but he ain't jumping into the abattoir at the end of it. 

 

You are ABSOLUTELY mental if you think JRM is going to be even remotely impacted by the negative effects of Brexit. 

 

He'll be riding on the last horse out of here to Ireland where all his money is neatly stashed away. 

 

I've never seen so many people have such blind faith in a man who is clearly a world removed from them; very privileged and will go ultimately unaffected by the decision he is driving. 

 

He is a crook, clear as day.

[lifted*fox]

1 hour ago, Voll Blau said:

I don't think it's misleading to infer from that comment what many have inferred. It's still trying to give him, and other prominent Leavers, a get-out clause until the year 2068 if things aren't going brilliantly at any point up until that date.

 

 

Totally lol. 

 

I don't understand what his defenders are seeing.

 

He is clearly trying to squirm his way out of any culpability in that video. 

 

Why would anyone trust a single word that comes out of it's mouth - I really do not know. 

 

Interviewer: So take some responsibility for the Brexit you're championing - if it's ****s up will you take responsibility and resign?

JRM: Nah m8, lol, of course not. It'll be 50 years before we see any clear results. I'll be dead by then. 

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

 

I don’t think the resurgence of the far right in Europe is a consequence of brexit, i think it’s a consequence of the EU.

 

I'd agree to a large extent. The austerity politics enforced by the EU on the continent (via EMU) bears a lot of the blame for the rise of the Far Right there, along with the policies of national govts.

Some blame can also be attached to the EU for dithering over the mass refugee influx a couple of years ago - though admittedly that was a tricky problem, and national govts again share the blame (uncontrolled influx in Germany, anti-refugee rhetoric in Hungary and elsewhere).

 

However, if there is a rise of the Far Right in the UK, then Brexit will certainly bear a big part of the blame.

That already seems likely with the Tommy Robinson demos, UKIP shifting right to take advantage of that, an angry mood over Brexit etc.

 

Imagine what might happen IF there is No Deal and IF that does lead to serious economic consequences of any kind. I know that those are 2 big IFs that might not happen....but that scenario is now looking a distinct possibility, at least.

 

It's entirely predictable that many Hard Brexiteers will blame the EU if there is No Deal and negative consequences ensue...even though many of them were once confident that we'd get a great, beneficial deal or that No Deal was a good thing. 

They will thereby deliberately or accidentally whip up anger against foreigners. Needless to say, Far Right elements will be only too keen to take advantage of that scenario by fomenting nationalistic hostility against foreigners, probably including violence in some cases. I suppose one plus is that the new Far Right-leaning UKIP has an uninspiring leader now - and if Farage returned, he might shy away from the Far Right stuff (he mainly has before). But, of course, there'll be Tommy Robinson emerging from prison to be greeted, no doubt, as the conquering hero defending the nation against foreigners and the establishment....

[Strokes]

24 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I'd agree to a large extent. The austerity politics enforced by the EU on the continent (via EMU) bears a lot of the blame for the rise of the Far Right there, along with the policies of national govts.

Some blame can also be attached to the EU for dithering over the mass refugee influx a couple of years ago - though admittedly that was a tricky problem, and national govts again share the blame (uncontrolled influx in Germany, anti-refugee rhetoric in Hungary and elsewhere).

 

However, if there is a rise of the Far Right in the UK, then Brexit will certainly bear a big part of the blame.

That already seems likely with the Tommy Robinson demos, UKIP shifting right to take advantage of that, an angry mood over Brexit etc.

 

Imagine what might happen IF there is No Deal and IF that does lead to serious economic consequences of any kind. I know that those are 2 big IFs that might not happen....but that scenario is now looking a distinct possibility, at least.

 

It's entirely predictable that many Hard Brexiteers will blame the EU if there is No Deal and negative consequences ensue...even though many of them were once confident that we'd get a great, beneficial deal or that No Deal was a good thing. 

They will thereby deliberately or accidentally whip up anger against foreigners. Needless to say, Far Right elements will be only too keen to take advantage of that scenario by fomenting nationalistic hostility against foreigners, probably including violence in some cases. I suppose one plus is that the new Far Right-leaning UKIP has an uninspiring leader now - and if Farage returned, he might shy away from the Far Right stuff (he mainly has before). But, of course, there'll be Tommy Robinson emerging from prison to be greeted, no doubt, as the conquering hero defending the nation against foreigners and the establishment....

Brexit is also a consequence of the EU, so I will still blame them.

If they had given Cameron something real to come back with, all of this would have been avoided.

[Strokes]

34 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

 

Totally lol. 

 

I don't understand what his defenders are seeing.

 

He is clearly trying to squirm his way out of any culpability in that video. 

 

Why would anyone trust a single word that comes out of it's mouth - I really do not know. 

 

Interviewer: So take some responsibility for the Brexit you're championing - if it's ****s up will you take responsibility and resign?

JRM: Nah m8, lol, of course not. It'll be 50 years before we see any clear results. I'll be dead by then. 

Gr8 parfrasing m8 ??

[Alf Bentley]

5 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Brexit is also a consequence of the EU, so I will still blame them.

If they had given Cameron something real to come back with, all of this would have been avoided.

 

On that basis, I'm going to ask LCFC to give me my season ticket for half-price.

If they refuse, I'll smash up the stadium, smash up my house and abuse my clients so that I lose income.

I'll then blame LCFC for all the damage. If they had given me what I asked for, all of that damage would have been avoided.  

[Strokes]

16 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

On that basis, I'm going to ask LCFC to give me my season ticket for half-price.

If they refuse, I'll smash up the stadium, smash up my house and abuse my clients so that I lose income.

I'll then blame LCFC for all the damage. If they had given me what I asked for, all of that damage would have been avoided.  

Crap analogy, I’m not smashing up the EU and then blaming them. I will vote for brexit at any cost though.

 

We’re asking them to change the way do things due to concern at the way it’s running, and then the consequence of what follows is their fault if they fail to do that. It’s not just here it’s happening, it’s starting in Greece, Italy, France. It’s nothing to do with brexit because the source is the EU.

Edited 23 July 2018 by Strokes

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Crap analogy, I’m not smashing up the EU and then blaming them. I will vote for brexit at any cost though.

 

We’re asking them to change the way do things due to concern at the way it’s running, and then the consequence of what follows is their fault if they fault if they fail to do that. It’s not just here it’s happening, it’s starting in Greece, Italy, France. It’s nothing to do with brexit because the source is the EU.

2

So if the EU fails to address some concerns, and as a result, some folks vote in/bring in far-right nationalists in various countries across Europe, and that rule results in the usual consequence of such nationalists...it's all the fault of the EU for not listening and none of the fault of those who bring the neofascists in?

 

That's some serious shirking of responsibility on the part of those who think they're not being listened to.

[Carl the Llama]

Did anyone who believes they voted Brexit because they want the EU to change ever try voting for/communicating with their MEP to that effect?

[Strokes]

Just now, leicsmac said:

So if the EU fails to address some concerns, and as a result, some folks vote in/bring in far-right nationalists in various countries across Europe, and that rule results in the usual consequence of such nationalists...it's all the fault of the EU for not listening and none of the fault of those who bring the neofascists in?

 

That's some serious shirking of responsibility on the part of those who think they're not being listened to.

It’s a consequence of.......Im not absolving people who don’t yet exist.

[Alf Bentley]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Crap analogy, I’m not smashing up the EU and then blaming them. I will vote for brexit at any cost though.

 

We’re asking them to change the way do things due to concern at the way it’s running, and then the consequence of what follows is their fault if they fault if they fail to do that. It’s not just here it’s happening, it’s starting in Greece, Italy, France. It’s nothing to do with brexit because the source is the EU.

 

Nope, great analogy. You're damaging the premises of your trading partners, damaging your own home and damaging your income flow. 

 

In any negotiating situation with 2 parties, you can argue all day as to whose fault it is if there's no deal. If I want special terms on my season ticket and am not offered them, is that my fault or LCFC's fault?

 

For whatever reason, the EU offered Cameron what they did and he accepted it. For whatever reason, the nation voted for Brexit and negotiations began.

Again, we can argue all day about the negotiations, but the EU has clearly made certain offers available: a Canada-style deal, a closer Norway-style deal - or No Deal.

It looks as if the UK isn't managing to convince them to offer another alternative (one that would involve massive changes to their single market and customs systems) - and may now opt for No Deal, not Canada or Norway.

Blaming the EU for that choice would be an abdication of responsibility.

 

Yes, the EU has all sorts of flaws and has done things wrong vis-à-vis Greece and the Mediterranean countries. As I said, the rise of the Far Right on the continent certainly isn't the fault of Brexit or the UK - and is partly the fault of the EU.

But the blame for any Brexit disaster will rest firmly with irresponsible Hard Brexiteers in the UK and the dithering, incompetent, can-kicking Tory Govt. The blame for any rise in the Far Right in the UK will lie partly, if not mainly with the Hard Brexiteers - partly also with the Tories, especially Cameron/Osborne, for years of austerity and years of anti-EU rhetoric, followed by a reckless and badly-run referendum (and with the fascists themselves, obviously).

 

Sorry, must work now - urgent job in. It's from N. Ireland, funny enough....don't think any hard border will complicate things yet.  

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Max Wall said:

That's precisely why he didn't after the vote though isn't it? You would have to be rather foolhardy to want to be the prime minister  dealing with Brexit, at best, half the population will disagree with almost everything you do.

Gove and Leadsom wanted it to be fair, Boris did bottle it though, no doubt about that.

 

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

Capital punishment?

That's a great example, probably has support overall in the nation but I'd hazard a guess at less than 10% in the house.

 

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

What a ****ing disaster our Government is.  I watched John Major clips from Sunday and actually thought he would today make a better PM than Theresa.

That's pushing it a bit far I think.

I thought that interview was weird, at one point he stated that it's possible the Earth is flat, is really isn't John. Everyone seems to be losing their minds in this debate.
 

25 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Brexit is also a consequence of the EU, so I will still blame them.

If they had given Cameron something real to come back with, all of this would have been avoided.

It's baffling to imagine now, but had Merkel just even given him something like a temporary halt to migration he would probably have won the vote.

He wasn't the only gambler in the casino when all this went through, Cameron was a total arse but he wasn't the only one.
 

17 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

On that basis, I'm going to ask LCFC to give me my season ticket for half-price.

If they refuse, I'll smash up the stadium, smash up my house and abuse my clients so that I lose income.

I'll then blame LCFC for all the damage. If they had given me what I asked for, all of that damage would have been avoided.  

For a man of your intellect and wit Alf that's a terrible analogy! That logic assumes Britain is bringing very little to the table, one person out of 23,000 season ticket holders, probably 0.001% of the income!.

A better one would be a wealthy board member, the second highest funder of the club, threatening to walk away is a few changes to the rules weren't slightly altered to suit them, the board then decided that they'll be happy to punish themselves, the board member and everyone else as to make sure no one else does it again.

[Guest MattP]

7 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Did anyone who believes they voted Brexit because they want the EU to change ever try voting for/communicating with their MEP to that effect?

Many times, Margot Parker replied a couple of times, Rory Palmer never and he's the deputy to Soulsby now and will soon be an MP for Labour if he gets a chance.

Can't remember the names of the Tories but the East Midlanders were pretty pro-EU anyway from what I remember, it was only guys like Syed Kamal and Daniel Hannan that seemed to play a part in the Eurosceptic movement.

[Max Wall]

7 minutes ago, MattP said:

Gove and Leadsom wanted it to be fair, Boris did bottle it though, no doubt about that.

 

 

That just shows how nuts those two are. History is very unlikely to remember the PM in office during Brexit negotiations favourably and there's a possibility they will be portrayed as the devil incarnate in future..

Far from bottling it, I think it was pretty smart of Johnson to drop out when he did. I'm not a fan of his by any means but he sure knows how to manoeuvre his options.

Edited 23 July 2018 by Max Wall

[leicsmac]

30 minutes ago, Strokes said:

It’s a consequence of.......Im not absolving people who don’t yet exist.

They do, or at least some folks (Bannon included, yes him again, he had success over the pond, remember) think they do.

 

They just don't have control yet.

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

They do, or at least some folks (Bannon included, yes him again, he had success over the pond, remember) think they do.

 

They just don't have control yet.

We were talking about a hypothetical uprising following a no deal, hence the non existence yet.

I acknowledge there are far right mentallists in existence.

Edited 23 July 2018 by Strokes

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

We were talking about a hypothetical uprising following a no deal, hence the non existence yet.

I acknowledge there are far right mentallists in existence.

 

Ah, fair enough, thanks for the clarification.

 

Perhaps I'm looking at it from too dichotomic a view, but IMO right now as resistance to the EU increases, they only get stronger.

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Ah, fair enough, thanks for the clarification.

 

Perhaps I'm looking at it from too dichotomic a view, but IMO right now as resistance to the EU increases, they only get stronger.

We aren’t far off from our opinions but I see it as, the EUs failure to reform adds weight to the far right and leaves people who start off concerned, with no where left to turn but the far right.

National identity is seriously important to some people, me included and some EU policies feel like a suppression of this.

When you dramatically increase the population of a country/continent and services get worse and people get poorer, you are going to push people that way.

Its easy to blame brexit but this is more than just the UK.

[lifted*fox]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

National identity is seriously important to some people, me included

 

Serious question my lovely - what does national identity mean to you and what part of it do you feel is eroded by the EU that actually affects your feelings for this country? 

 

I'm English on my birth certificate and national identity means absolutely nothing to me. I was born elsewhere to British parents and moved here when I was 2 - so grew up here from the start of my working memory.

 

I don't care for our royalty, I don't care for tea, I don't care for any other 'English' stereotypes. 

 

I support our football team in tournaments and that will just about do it for me - I quite like a roast dinner.

 

What more national identity could I possibly need to feel?

 

Now - I know I like to rustle jimmies over the whole race thing - but I know you well enough to know that race and mixing with people of different ethnicity isn't an issue for you so we're not looking to have an England flag hanging from every house and only white faces on the streets. 

 

So what part of this countries national identity have we lost? 

 

People in Germany still eat big sausages and wear lederhosen to celebrate their national identity, occasionally - should it be normal attire to protect traditional things that strengthen the feeling of 'national identity'? 

 

Bit of a waffle but I'm struggling to understand what anybody means (not just you) when they say that our national identity is under threat?