Football is Ruined - Play to the Whistle?VAR

[Merging Cultures]

This is probably the biggest point for me. We may gain accuracy but lose something more important.
 
Take tactics. The German football team started using machine learning and data to retrospectively analyse the last world cup.
 
If IBM can create a machine to beat the world's best Go and Chess player I'm fairly sure if we feed it enough data about our opponents and create the best tactics possible.
 
Then gone are the Mourinhos and Peps squabbling. Gone is Pearson calling people ostriches. Gone is Fergie planting careful lies to the press. Chant, chant about your highly effective geek overlords.
 
VAR isn't the above scenario. But we still may lose something. If VAR removes even slightly the passion, intensity and emotions from the game then it ruins the entertainment. I'd rather it be 1-0.  And I'll take the loses too. The refs probably favoured us in the first half of 15/16 anyway.

That's obviously an extreme example, the end result of which being boring 0-0 draws.

Data is critical in football, but it's the human element interpreting it that makes it exciting.

[ZeGuy]

28 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Thanks.

 

I wonder why he didnt blow?

Part of the VAR I suppose.

 

I think that the ref and his linesmen are still in control and as soon as he blows the game stops. If the ref's unsure he can still let the game go further and wait for the video call.

 

VAR will be extremely useful for tight offsides or penalties and I don't think there's a way back.

[lgfualol]

Anything to give the shit refs less power and influence on the game is good. 

[ozleicester]

1 minute ago, The Doctor said:

Because there was a fraction of a second between the flag going up and the ball being in the net. That situation has happened millions of times before this tech. You're just bitching for the sake of it like a Luddite prat.

Todays word is -Luddite.

In truth, luddites are hostile to technology. I on the other hand am hostile to the complete fuvcking up of a game i love.

[ZeGuy]

1 minute ago, ozleicester said:

Todays word is -Luddite.

In truth, luddites are hostile to technology. I on the other hand am hostile to the complete fuvcking up of a game i love.

You're completely overreacting.

 

Luddite.

[Callabinho]

Hmmm. So that game was the FA cup final and we’re facing Man City.... we score a perfectly good goal that gets ruled out.... moments later they go down the other end and score 2 and win the game and the cup... we all cry our way home and sit talking about the injustice and how shit the refs are.... 

 

Football needs to step out of the dark ages, this isn’t what ruins football, the billionaires and money is what is ruining football... last night when it needed to VAR worked perfectly, Moss stopped the game and it took all of a minute to check and the correct decision was reached. 

 

Once the teething problems are sorted it will be a necessity. For too long poor decisions have ruined the game. Or would you prefer to still be victims of poor decisions and continue to lose points, games and even players to the naked eye? It’s 2018, time for the game to evolve. 

[filbertway]

He didn't blow because it all happened in one swift moment and he was concentrating on the action. I find it worrying people can't grasp that.

 

It happens hundreds of times every weekend I imagine.

[Foxxed]

1 minute ago, Merging Cultures said:

That's obviously an extreme example, the end result of which being boring 0-0 draws.

Data is critical in football, but it's the human element interpreting it that makes it exciting.

It would depend on who's using the best techniques. And a machine could interpret it. It would be more efficient. Less error prone. And dull. Dull like Nacho's second goal celebration. I'd rather have the drama of an incorrect offside.

[Vacamion]

 

Saying that we might as well do away with the officials is, in my opinion, incorrect.

 

The VAR is there for obvious errors which could change the game.

 

There will be a “soft call” by the officials on the pitch and VAR will only overturn if it was a glaring error.

 

The Iborra penalty incident was a case in point.  Ref didn’t think it was a foul, VAR reviewed. Was there contact? Yes. Enough to consider it a glaring and obvious error by the ref? No (in the reviwer’s opinion).  The system worked and the ref’s initial call mattered. I deliberately used this as an example because I personally thought initially it was a penalty and then from the replay it still looked to me like a foul, but the referree felt differently, it was reviewed by another ref who did not see sufficient grounds to overturn it. Whilst I disagree with the decision, I would much prefer that it was reviewed in some shape rather than just carrying on regardless.  Even with my blue tinted specs on, I can see that the principle was correct.

 

The officials will work with the VAR, it’s not one or the other.

 

If you want to know why officials are still needed with VAR, look at cricket, where umpires are overturned all the time and yet they still play a vital role and their initial call is often important.

 

It’s early days,  There will doubtless be cock ups by incompetent use of it (the timing of blowing the whistle or not blowing it, or the reaction of players), but I say VAR is a sound idea (let’s minimise obviously bad decisions) and it should be given a chance.

 

 

 

 

[Merging Cultures]

Hmmm. So that game was the FA cup final and we’re facing Man City.... we score a perfectly good goal that gets ruled out.... moments later they go down the other end and score 2 and win the game and the cup... we all cry our way home and sit talking about the injustice and how shit the refs are.... 
 
Football needs to step out of the dark ages, this isn’t what ruins football, the billionaires and money is what is ruining football... last night when it needed to VAR worked perfectly, Moss stopped the game and it took all of a minute to check and the correct decision was reached. 
 
Once the teething problems are sorted it will be a necessity. For too long poor decisions have ruined the game. Or would you prefer to still be victims of poor decisions and continue to lose points, games and even players to the naked eye? It’s 2018, time for the game to evolve. 

We'd be annoyed as hell. We'd talk about it ad infinitum. We'd carry the grudge forever. That's just what happens. The human imperfections are what raise passions and make the game even more exciting.

[Foxxed]

I think I'm against VAR. But for goal-line tech. Goal line tech doesn't seem to reduce the intensity of the game. I'd rather the players seek active justice for a wrong decision on the pitch than squeel for a video replay. And I'd rather the fans keep a grudge until the next match. To hell with cold, clean accuracy. This is life. Deal with it.

 

[WigstonWanderer]

4 hours ago, ozleicester said:

The game is ruined,

 

Referees no longer have control and never again will you hear "Play to the whistle"

 

VAR will ruin the game, no player will stop just because of the refs whistle, they will need to play on, just in case the VAR disagrees with the ref.

 

January 16th will go down as the day football died.

 

 

I don’t think that’s how it works. Once the ref has blown his whistle play stops regardless of what the player does. It has to be like that or some players might stop and others continue which would be anomalous.

 

In other words, if, for example the ref blows for offside, and the attacking player ignores him and scores, the VAR cannot override and allow the goal.

 

I understand where you’re coming from, and the VAR doesn’t seem to be very popular in Australia, not least because some the VAR decisions seem to be bizarre. I think it should be continued and refined to ensure that there are as few delays as possible.

 

It seemed to work pretty well last night I thought.

 

Edit: Side effects would probably be that players will ignore a linesman’s flag until the ref has blown, but they should do that anyway.

 

Also, ref might refrain from blowing in marginal offside cases for example and wait for a decision from the VAR when the outcome is decided. I can live with that.

Edited 17 January 2018 by WigstonWanderer

[WigstonWanderer]

1 hour ago, Vlad the Fox said:

If the flag goes up there is no goal scoring experience. 

 

I do agree though that it needs refined, speeding up, and my concern is that if they are constantly going to it the effect it will have on the flow of the game, will teams be appealing for the ref to go to it when under pressure to break up the oppostions momentum?  While I'm not totally sure about its impact on the game yet I think it should be a good thing but I think there are issues that need sorting out and tightening up which is exactly why this fa cup trial is going on. 

 

Also the crowd played up to it last night well but I think the system should include the crowd more as in cricket. Show on the screen what the VAR team are looking at, do a count down ect.

I understand that in Aus, appealing to the ref to go to VAR is a yellow card offence.

[WigstonWanderer]

1 hour ago, ozleicester said:

Agree with much of this.. but, why didnt the ref blow for the offside on Riyad when the Lino's flag went up?

 

Seems to me he's handed his responsibility to the VAR, which is exactly my point, refs will become of very little relevance.

Don’t really care if refs become irrelevant personally. Bunch of cheating cvnts anyway 

[Captain...]

2 hours ago, ozleicester said:

But.. if the ref thinks he is offside, but Riyad thinks he is onside.... the ref blows, Riyad plays on and scores.... VAR review find Riyad WAS offside - CARD!

 

But.. if the ref thinks he is offside, but Riyad thinks he is onside.... the ref blows, Riyad stops and game continues.... VAR review find Riyad WAS onside, goal lost.

 

Either way, the ref looks a twat and people stop paying attention to him

As soon as the ref blows his whistle the game stops, Mahrez can go on and score but the keeper will stop when he hears the whistle so the goal would never count. So there is no point Mahrez carrying on and risking a booking. You  play to the whistle that cannot change. If he makes a mistake with an offside then possession can be given back to the wronged team, but you can't recreate the circumstances of an incorrect stoppage so it will need to be a set piece restart.

 

This will hopefully lead to the linesman/ref giving the attacking side the benefit of the doubt in a marginal offside, which should be the case anyway, then if there is a goal directly after a close offside call then it can be reviewed, if it goes out for a corner or an attacking throw in then it can be reviewed and possession awarded to the correct team. The VAR ref will have had time to review the offside before the ball next goes out of play and if it is still relevant possession can be correctly awarded. If play has gone on for over a minute without a stoppage then any advantage of the offside will be over.

 

Last night was a perfect example of VAR working and it should be encouraged.

[Callabinho]

1 hour ago, Merging Cultures said:

1 hour ago, Callabinho said:

Hmmm. So that game was the FA cup final and we’re facing Man City.... we score a perfectly good goal that gets ruled out.... moments later they go down the other end and score 2 and win the game and the cup... we all cry our way home and sit talking about the injustice and how shit the refs are.... 
 
Football needs to step out of the dark ages, this isn’t what ruins football, the billionaires and money is what is ruining football... last night when it needed to VAR worked perfectly, Moss stopped the game and it took all of a minute to check and the correct decision was reached. 
 
Once the teething problems are sorted it will be a necessity. For too long poor decisions have ruined the game. Or would you prefer to still be victims of poor decisions and continue to lose points, games and even players to the naked eye? It’s 2018, time for the game to evolve. 

We'd be annoyed as hell. We'd talk about it ad infinitum. We'd carry the grudge forever. That's just what happens. The human imperfections are what raise passions and make the game even more exciting.

Right..... so you’d be happy to lose a major cup final on the back of a poor decision.... just so you can throw obscenities towards the opposing fans.... seems a perfectly balanced reason to why VAR isn’t needed...... 

[Redouane]

VAR is still in its early stages, of course it has flaws.

I am sure we will be seeing technologies which will drastically speed up the process of a VAR review.

[Captain...]

We all know that all top clubs will look at how they can use VAR to their advantage and managers and players will find ways to pressurise the ref, either during the game or after the game. I would prefer it if VAR was used purely for non subjective reviews. You are either offside or onside, there is no grey area. The ball either hits the hand or doesn't. A foul and the interpretations of deliberate handball are so subjective that VAR will just cause more problems.

[filbertway]

16 minutes ago, Captain... said:

We all know that all top clubs will look at how they can use VAR to their advantage and managers and players will find ways to pressurise the ref, either during the game or after the game. I would prefer it if VAR was used purely for non subjective reviews. You are either offside or onside, there is no grey area. The ball either hits the hand or doesn't. A foul and the interpretations of deliberate handball are so subjective that VAR will just cause more problems.

Which is how it's being used. Looking for clear and obvious errors.

[Captain...]

6 minutes ago, filbertway said:

Which is how it's being used. Looking for clear and obvious errors.

If you look at the penalty incident last night, it was probably a penalty, but it wasn't 100% clear cut. I think VAR should stay away from those sort of decisions for the time being. You  need to trust the ref who is in the thick of the action, things often look different on a slo mo replay. Keep VAR away from subjective decisions while it is  still being trialled.

[RowlattsFox]

I wonder if Moss would have checked if the flag hadn't have gone up? It would still have been a goal but it would be interesting to see from that point of view.

 

We benefitted last night but I'm still not sure about it. They'll end up checking every goal scored.

[filbertway]

4 minutes ago, Captain... said:

If you look at the penalty incident last night, it was probably a penalty, but it wasn't 100% clear cut. I think VAR should stay away from those sort of decisions for the time being. You  need to trust the ref who is in the thick of the action, things often look different on a slo mo replay. Keep VAR away from subjective decisions while it is  still being trialled.

 

I don't agree on that one but it's a fair point. I think that took about 10-15 seconds for the video ref to say "yeah that call was fine Jon".

 

It's not a massive amount of time and if they're in anyway uncertain that a clear mistake was made they just leave it.

 

What has impressed me is that the pitch side screens haven't been used. That's the one thing that put me off about this, having seen refs in Germany consult the screen after talking over the mic. If the video ref isn't 100% sure an error was made, then the ref on the pitch almost certainly won't be sure. Just leave the decision as it is.

 

How it's been used in the 2 games I've seen (ours and Chelsea v Arsenal last week) has been pretty much spot on. The only thing that confused me about last night was that there was only 3 minutes stoppage time added haha.

 

There'll still be plenty of debate for those that absolutely love seeing "perceived" errors being made and getting all irate about it.

[filbertway]

1 minute ago, RowlattsFox said:

I wonder if Moss would have checked if the flag hadn't have gone up? It would still have been a goal but it would be interesting to see from that point of view.

 

We benefitted last night but I'm still not sure about it. They'll end up checking every goal scored.

All goals are automatically reviewed.

[Fox92]

I never wanted it to happen. Football is not a stop-start game.

 

Some great goals/winners/scenes will be ruined now. Can you imagine scoring a last minute winner and everybody's going crazy and then the ref decides to look at it so we're all on hold.

[Countryfox]

2 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

I never wanted it to happen. Football is not a stop-start game.

 

Some great goals/winners/scenes will be ruined now. Can you imagine scoring a last minute winner and everybody's going crazy and then the ref decides to look at it so we're all on hold.

 Can you imagine in the last few seconds of a game the ref awards a penalty ...    but the VAR shows the player wasn’t touched but threw himself down without the slightest touch ...   ref gives him a second yellow and off he goes ...    game goes to extra time and we win the FA cup.