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[Guest MattP]

29 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I’m sorry Matt but it’s this kind of mentality that’s enabled the big two to become the big two and therefore be so shit and still have a chance. 

Vote for you want in power not to stop who you don’t.

I'm not saying it's right at all, I hate it, but that is unfortunately what many will do.

 

We need the big two to either radically change or collapse and if they do either no one will be happier than me. 

[Buce]

38 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I’m sorry Matt but it’s this kind of mentality that’s enabled the big two to become the big two and therefore be so shit and still have a chance. 

Vote for you want in power not to stop who you don’t.

 

Trouble is in a FPTP system, if I voted for who I want in power my vote is wasted. 

 

We need a form of PR. 

[Strokes]

9 minutes ago, MattP said:

I'm not saying it's right at all, I hate it, but that is unfortunately what many will do.

 

We need the big two to either radically change or collapse and if they do either no one will be happier than me. 

But you have to play your part, the revolution will never happen if the people don’t revolt.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

Trouble is in a FPTP system, if I voted for who I want in power my vote is wasted. 

 

We need a form of PR. 

I agree it’s shit, but it’s never a wasted vote.

[Nick]

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

I'm not saying it's right at all, I hate it, but that is unfortunately what many will do.

 

We need the big two to either radically change or collapse and if they do either no one will be happier than me. 

I don’t think either will collapse - both have an entrenched following with an inability to place a vote anywhere else.

 

Both also have a following of voters who feel polarised from Party politics too though, very much like ourselves Matt (who’d of thought eh) and because neither Party will collapse, its perhaps our vote toward a third option that has the power to transform the uk political landscape. There’s enough of us in ‘disaffected limbo’ to put the the Lib Dem’s in power. And anything has to be better than the other two. 

 

Be brave! 

[Buce]

Just now, Strokes said:

I agree it’s shit, but it’s never a wasted vote.

 

Semantics, mate. 

 

My vote carries no weight in a safe Tory seat unless I lend it to the LDs to try and unseat the Tory, and that is just the lesser of two evils. 

[Nick]

4 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Trouble is in a FPTP system, if I voted for who I want in power my vote is wasted. 

 

We need a form of PR. 

Couldn’t agree more it’s been heavily debated on here many times over the years but the only way to get that would probably to get the Lib Dem’s in! Wasn’t election reform toward a version of PR one of their things a few years ago?

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Semantics, mate. 

 

My vote carries no weight in a safe Tory seat unless I lend it to the LDs to try and unseat the Tory, and that is just the lesser of two evils. 

If you voted for them in 2010, you basically voted for the tories.

People need to start voting for their preferred choice otherwise things will never change.

[Buce]

17 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

Couldn’t agree more it’s been heavily debated on here many times over the years but the only way to get that would probably to get the Lib Dem’s in! Wasn’t election reform toward a version of PR one of their things a few years ago?

 

The problem with that is any party elected by FPTP suddenly has no reason to back PR. They become the establishment, like how the pigs become humans in Animal Farm. 

 

And, lets be honest, the LDs have a very recent track record in duplicity when given a sniff of power. 

Edited 5 May 2019 by Buce

[Nick]

27 minutes ago, davieG said:

Isn't he planning to step down though?

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vince-cable-lib-dems-resigns-leader-election-a8823866.html

Right I’m off to chant ‘4 MORE YEARS’ outside his house, day and night for a while.

 

Be interesting to see who the party vote in during this 12 week process. Hopefully it’s somebody with integrity and not a Liberal Democrat who’s actually not liberal and hates Gay people and goes dogging and badger baiting at weekends.

 

Edit: Actually if the new leader wishes to ‘dog’ in their spare time that’s okay on reflection. But the gay hating and badger baiting remains part of the essential criteria ‘no list’ on the job description.

Edited 5 May 2019 by Nick

[Buce]

5 minutes ago, Strokes said:

If you voted for them in 2010, you basically voted for the tories.

People need to start voting for their preferred choice otherwise things will never change.

 

That’s just it, though - I voted for my choice and the Tory still won. 

[Guest MattP]

13 minutes ago, Buce said:

Trouble is in a FPTP system, if I voted for who I want in power my vote is wasted. 

 

We need a form of PR. 

It is. My vote also has to go accordingly to where you are.

 

If I was in Brighton or Scotland I'd probably be voting Labour given its them or the Greens or SNP. That shows how ridiculous the system is.

 

We need a referendum to change it though

 

9 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

There’s enough of us in ‘disaffected limbo’ to put the the Lib Dem’s in power. And anything has to be better than the other two. 

 

Be brave! 

It's very frustrating this, I thought at the last election the Lib Dems had the best manifesto of the lot - but as a leave voter it's impossible I can vote for them currently, the EU referendum has destroyed any chance of parties seeking to satisfy all of the electorate.

 

Labour have done well so far playing both sides of the fence, the Tory politicians are natural Remainers out of sync with the membership - I have no idea how this all ends but it could be chaos.

[Nick]

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

That’s just it, though - I voted for my choice and the Tory still won. 

Others need to do it too though Buce, not just you ? 

[Buce]

9 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

Others need to do it too though Buce, not just you ? 

 

Hardly seems fair really. ?

 

Quite unreasonable, in fact. 

Edited 5 May 2019 by Buce

[Nick]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

 

It's very frustrating this, I thought at the last election the Lib Dems had the best manifesto of the lot - but as a leave voter it's impossible I can vote for them currently, the EU referendum has destroyed any chance of parties seeking to satisfy all of the electorate.

 

Labour have done well so far playing both sides of the fence, the Tory politicians are natural Remainers out of sync with the membership - I have no idea how this all ends but it could be chaos.

I see your point but let’s assume some form of Brexit decision will have happened prior to the next GE. Then it becomes less about shoulda woulda coulda and more about moving forward whatever has happened with the farcical process.

 

If a GE comes before the conclusion of a Brexit process I do take your point - but I also think that within this disaffected demographic we are both a part of, that maybe even a majority of, no longer really give a **** about Brexit outcomes anymore. I for one was a remainer and now can’t really be called a leaver but faced with the realities of the vote and the conduct of the EU, Parliament and the Political Party agendas have just lost all faith in the idea that any of these groups are fit to represent the best interests of the wider electorate and any outcome will be awful now anyway.

 

And don’t get me started on how dismayed I feel by the behaviour of the British public under the spotlight. I spend a lot of time abroad and quite frankly it’s embarrassing having dialogue around the world with other people right now!

[purpleronnie]

So let me get this right...correct me if I'm not.

 

Mrs may now wants to throw out her red lines that she's been obsessed with for 2 years because of the tory local election collapse.

So with 'thanks' from Labour the deal will have a customs union of sorts that means we'll still be part of the EU (brexitiers unhappy) but without any of the say (Remainers unhappy)...and to add insult to injury its only temporary until the general election thus continuing the uncertainty (businesses unhappy).

 

If this is true then just when you think they couldn't mess Brexit up anymore they somehow manage to.

 

No wonder Farage is getting so many voters.

[Guest MattP]

16 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

I see your point but let’s assume some form of Brexit decision will have happened prior to the next GE. Then it becomes less about shoulda woulda coulda and more about moving forward whatever has happened with the farcical process.

 

If a GE comes before the conclusion of a Brexit process I do take your point - but I also think that within this disaffected demographic we are both a part of, that maybe even a majority of, no longer really give a **** about Brexit outcomes anymore. I for one was a remainer and now can’t really be called a leaver but faced with the realities of the vote and the conduct of the EU, Parliament and the Political Party agendas have just lost all faith in the idea that any of these groups are fit to represent the best interests of the wider electorate and any outcome will be awful now anyway.

 

And don’t get me started on how dismayed I feel by the behaviour of the British public under the spotlight. I spend a lot of time abroad and quite frankly it’s embarrassing having dialogue around the world with other people right now!

If a Brexit decision has been done then everything is back on the table assuming there is no pledge to reverse the decision.

 

Your last point is interesting though - aside from Germany (they all seem to see the EU in a positive light but the guys I speak to are from strong Merkel territory) I've never felt any hostility abroad and I'm very open about my thoughts on Brexit, most Italians and Greeks told me it was great and the Dutch and Portuguese understood.

 

The Americans I were with (wedding and all young Sanders voting types) couldn't understand it but when I'd explained and compared it (used examples of open door immigration from Central America and a court in Caracas being able to overule the Supreme court) they couldn't believe we had gone into this in the first place.

[fuchsntf]

37 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

I see your point but let’s assume some form of Brexit decision will have happened prior to the next GE. Then it becomes less about shoulda woulda coulda and more about moving forward whatever has happened with the farcical process.

 

If a GE comes before the conclusion of a Brexit process I do take your point - but I also think that within this disaffected demographic we are both a part of, that maybe even a majority of, no longer really give a **** about Brexit outcomes anymore. I for one was a remainer and now can’t really be called a leaver but faced with the realities of the vote and the conduct of the EU, Parliament and the Political Party agendas have just lost all faith in the idea that any of these groups are fit to represent the best interests of the wider electorate and any outcome will be awful now anyway.

 

And don’t get me started on how dismayed I feel by the behaviour of the British public under the spotlight. I spend a lot of time abroad and quite frankly it’s embarrassing having dialogue around the world with other people right now!

 

15 minutes ago, MattP said:

If a Brexit decision has been done then everything is back on the table assuming there is no pledge to reverse the decision.

 

Your last point is interesting though - aside from Germany (they all seem to see the EU in a positive light but the guys I speak to are from strong Merkel territory) I've never felt any hostility abroad and I'm very open about my thoughts on Brexit, most Italians and Greeks told me it was great and the Dutch and Portuguese understood.

 

The Americans I were with (wedding and all young Sanders voting types) couldn't understand it but when I'd explained and compared it (used examples of open door immigration from Central America and a court in Caracas being able to overule the Supreme court) they couldn't believe we had gone into this in the first place.

I never thought over these last 5yrss let alone the last 2, that the lads n lassies on the streets of Europe,have any negatives towards the Brits..the drinking

Culture dismays them somewhat,but have learnt even on holidays and fighting for pool deckchair rights,they realise and know what is a minority pastime,and

known their own northern cultures,have their own hidden issues,but don't go OTT over it...The southern Europeans can have great festivals and night scenes

without turning to the next boozer kiosk,even wine festivals which abound,don't usually create such amoc and chaos,as some Brits-nights out on holiday...

But even on this subject it's not the British electorate,from all levels of our  society that come under any fire...but the general view in my opinion,is they

are totally gobsmacked,over our political,clans,families and parties are failing their own people...The no cross-party involvement,the in-fighting that seems to

have stopped the normal business and political progress of the country...that now TV-parlament,has now become for the neutral a total farce....

 

Johnny Foreigners doesn't get upset over "those Brits", but are more astonished and embarrassed for us..!!!

Any negatives over the years,was after British-media/journals themselves first questioned our own sanity and integrity...

But like any topic,it depends on individuals experiences,away from work,meetings,or work dialog....it's when one exchanges thoughts across the various

Fellow foreign traveller,or social gatherings when one lives in any given new country of residence...

The Brit fairs well despite or spite our own misgivings...but our political & business fraternities,are not any longer holding that respect or balance...

 

 

[bovril]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

If a Brexit decision has been done then everything is back on the table assuming there is no pledge to reverse the decision.

 

Your last point is interesting though - aside from Germany (they all seem to see the EU in a positive light but the guys I speak to are from strong Merkel territory) I've never felt any hostility abroad and I'm very open about my thoughts on Brexit, most Italians and Greeks told me it was great and the Dutch and Portuguese understood.

 

The Americans I were with (wedding and all young Sanders voting types) couldn't understand it but when I'd explained and compared it (used examples of open door immigration from Central America and a court in Caracas being able to overule the Supreme court) they couldn't believe we had gone into this in the first place.

Most people I know from living and travelling in mainland Europe think it's idiotic. That includes a lot of Eurosceptics. The general belief is that we are chasing dreams of sovereignty and influenced by illusions of British exceptionalism on our way to seriously damaging our economy. I've also heard a lot of people who think it's ironic Brits complain about the 'neo-liberal EU' when we were the ones who pushed it in that direction. I'm surprised most Italians and Greeks told you it was 'great' as that's two countries I've spent a great deal of time in and I've never heard that, even from people who dislike the direction the EU is going in. I think Brexit has seriously damaged Eurosceptic feeling in this country and abroad, which is a shame because there's lots about the EU I don't like and opinions becoming polarised is never a good thing.

Of course that's all anecdotal evidence and I guess we spend more time with people who have similar opinions to our own. 

[Buce]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

If a Brexit decision has been done then everything is back on the table assuming there is no pledge to reverse the decision.

 

Your last point is interesting though - aside from Germany (they all seem to see the EU in a positive light but the guys I speak to are from strong Merkel territory) I've never felt any hostility abroad and I'm very open about my thoughts on Brexit, most Italians and Greeks told me it was great and the Dutch and Portuguese understood.

 

The Americans I were with (wedding and all young Sanders voting types) couldn't understand it but when I'd explained and compared it (used examples of open door immigration from Central America and a court in Caracas being able to overule the Supreme court) they couldn't believe we had gone into this in the first place.

1

 

Amazing that.

 

Who'd have thought it after your completely balanced and unbiased explanation?

 

[Buce]

 

What planet does Theresa May live on?

 

She goes cap in hand to Labour then expects whatever deal they sign up to be only temporary until the next election.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/05/john-mcdonnell-pours-cold-water-on-prospects-of-brexit-deal-with-may

Edited 5 May 2019 by Buce

[The Horse's Mouth]

Is mad Farage looks like the most competent out of all the leaders. 

[Buce]

Just now, The Horse's Mouth said:

Is mad Farage looks like the most competent out of all the leaders. 

 

Looks are deceiving.

 

He's a lying charlatan who has taken something like half a million quid in wages as an MEP for an institution he claims to oppose.

[Matt]

17 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Looks are deceiving.

 

He's a lying charlatan who has taken something like half a million quid in wages as an MEP for an institution he claims to oppose.

Of course he lies, he's a politician, it's what they do.

 

Have to laugh when people use the 'he/she lies' comments when talking about politicians as if that makes the difference and seperates them from the rest.

 

Edited 5 May 2019 by Matt

[Buce]

53 minutes ago, Matt said:

Of course he lies, he's a politician, it's what they do.

 

Have to laugh when people use the 'he/she lies' comments when talking about politicians as if that makes the difference and seperates them from the rest.

 

 

Well, duh. 

 

I wasn’t the one saying he was more competent than the rest.